Name Another NCAA Basketball Coach That Has Done Less With More Than Calipari

[Bill Derington]

LPT fans are adept at misquoting me or taking comments out of context. Give me the complete quote in context, and I'll show you where there's no inconsistency.

Again, you're missing the point... The issue isn't talent, it's accomplishment. LPT fans may indeed be enjoying what they THINK is accomplishment. But what you think doesn't matter.

"Elite program", my a$$...

Are you denying you've written ad nauseum about stars not mattering on the football board?
So you think getting to the final 4 isn't an accomplishment? Or are you simply trying to undermine what UK has accomplished?

What UK fans think about the program doesn't matter?

 

[JohnKBA]

He acknowledged it was himself and his LPT buds. How is that representative? You know, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. Why not just give yourself another championship trophy?

"Elite program", my a$$...

But we aren't here to hand out championship trophies - we are here to discuss subjective topics and give our opinions on them.

I suppose you could just say that no opinion other than yours matters, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of a message board, right?

 

[Senore2006]

But we aren't here to hand out championship trophies - we are here to discuss subjective topics and give our opinions on them.

I suppose you could just say that no opinion other than yours matters, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of a message board, right?

LOL, Zipp is like this wall UK fans fling themselves at in hopes of sticking. I imagine they go to bed arguing in their minds with Zipp, ha ha, just'a' working on that simply just perfect response to make his absurd claims about UK and their fans more widely understood as random insane ravings.

Equivocating Grover with Zipp may be the cruellest and lamest stab of all, lol. One has "Tourette's of The Internet" while the other begs you to argue with him. Guess who is who in this dramatic dreamscape.

UK fans are "over the mountain" in their quintessential romantic view of the Cats. Rupp brings the lash of history and tough education, while young Adonis's like Pat Riley, Cliff Hagan, Rex and John Wall are the physical Icons. While Pitino's guys brought nearly as much excitement as Rupps's teams, it was because of the pace of play that they were popular. And - more importantly - the formation of tight clockwork-like teams. There is a corrosive dissonance to Calipari's clubs you can't shake. Ever since Wall and Cousins and company were punked by West Virginia in the tourney, challenges not overcome have been a feature of his teams. More remarkable still has been how little he seems to have learned. But that may just be the OAC Boat - WYSIWYG.

 

[zipp]

That's the thing about Zipp. No matter what is accomplished it's still not good enough. Fans like him can't ever give another team a compliment. He's what makes UL fans look bad. He's the UL Grover.

But we aren't here to hand out championship trophies - we are here to discuss subjective topics and give our opinions on them.

I suppose you could just say that no opinion other than yours matters, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of a message board, right?

My opinion isn't all that matters. (John, you're smarter than that AND 'elvis'...)

LPT fans simply don't get to claim they represent the opinions of everyone else. Not surprisingly, the only people here arguing against the done-less-with-more POV are LPT fans. Of course, you think your program is accomplishing something. But on that point, an LPT fans' opinion doesn't matter or it certainly matters little. That also applies to the collective opinion of a million LPT fans--many of whom also think that one title is not enough.

Just listened to the cn2 "Sports Buzz" TV program on Sunday nites at 11 PM, and the guys on there were making this same point. It's a fact that no one does less with more, and you're crazy to argue the point. Duke's not even close with the talent they currently have. They've won TWO titles in the Pitino Lite timeframe, and they have had HALF the number of five-star kids. And now, they get the hell beat outta them in the ACC.

As I've said, come at the debate with data and evidence. Not just that LPT fans don't like the analysis. Of course you don't.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

Senore, where you been??

 

[zipp]

Are you denying you've written ad nauseum about stars not mattering on the football board?
So you think getting to the final 4 isn't an accomplishment? Or are you simply trying to undermine what UK has accomplished?...

I don't know what you think you've read, Bill. But no, I've never said that "stars don't matter" in either sport. I've said they're not ALL that matters, and maybe that's what you've read drawing a parallel here.

LPT basketball recruiting is so far ahead of what anyone else is doing that it has to be judged almost in isolation. We're not talking about a fractional difference on the scale between 3.0 and 3.5 stars. It's an EXCEPTION when your school doesn't ink a 5-star kid in basketball. That's operating in another realm or universe.

And then you compound that with the historically low quality of SEC basketball ex. LPT. The fact that LPT will simply get a 1- or 2-seed in the postseason because it can rack up a gaudy won-lost record. It makes a Final Four attainment meaningless.

For the same reason, it also means you typically lose when you get there. You're overrated for the Final Four. And we don't casually hand out accolades for being overrated.

...What UK fans think about the program doesn't matter?

Not when you're the only ones making your own case.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[gocds]

I'm not sure a "gaudy" record compiled in a very weak conference should result in a high NCAA tourney seed. Especially since the $ec is not really much tougher than the OVC. Ask yourself if a team playing in the OVC compiled the same record as uahkay would receive higher than a 5+ seed. Not likely. The cayuts are living on being a really good team that get wins versus terrible basketball programs. Sure they did beat UNC and I guess we'll (UofL) will find out how good UNC really is when we play them ON THEIR HOME FLOOR with UNC getting the normal home floor breaks from the officials.

GO CARDS - BEAT EVERYBODY!!! God Bless America!!!

 

[Senore2006]

Senore, where you been??

I got operated on August 24th in this 10 hour extravaganza. I sort of even died when it was over - (lol, "I had a rendevouz with death and didn't show up!"). Since then, I have been on a rehab journey at times interesting and at other, agoraphobic. This is the 3rd op I've had since October of 2014, the latter 2 both dealing with mistakes made during #1 - when I was successfully treated for Cancer. I even have a small procedure yet to undergo but it's a couple days in the hospital and this entire saga should end. The first two times, by the time I got home, I had to learn how to walk again - quite literally. This time I did the dished and took out the trash the day I got home, an attribute of the physical work I did before the last operation. But the crap you endure in these major operations - the anesthetics impact, the pain, leave you gnoshing for months at a time. Everything is "off".

This time was the first of these efforts where I actually got somewhat depressed. I cut down a lot of my internet activities, sat at home squeezing tennis balls and stretching plastic in isometrics and tried to not let it all get to me too much. I watched every movie I ever wanted to watch, lol. Got into Netflix binging. It's been a nasty ride and worse - I had to relinquish projects I was invested in and arguably 2/3 finished with, including a book about my old High School baseball coach, Owensboro Legend Jack Hicks, I got emotionally tired and that's dangerous in someone my age - 68. When Spring rolls around, I hope to get back to traveling to Owensboro and combing through newspaper files @ the local library tracing his coaching from 1953-1978, wherein he won almost 700 ballgames and 4 state titles - 11 state titles in American legion. I have around 60 hours of live interviews with Jack - who died a bit over a year ago. I was there, with Father Bradley actually, just before he passed. Father Bradley was an excellent interview too, lol. He married all of Jack's kids, lol.

All that momentum stopped. I was on such a roll, trying to get it all in before he passed and then the cancer. I got a crappy doctor who screwed it up and prolly wasn't even necessary in the first place. It was a shallow polyp which can be removed arthroscopicly, I found out later, and not necessarily a 10 inch cut and totally invasive, debilitating surgery. Those are the fundaments of my law suit, lol.

So I got my butt kicked by events I had little control over. I'm healing again now, got people to show around Louisville tomorrow and the next day, in fact, something I have always enjoyed. I'll get back to whatever normal now is soon enough. I wanted to play softball, lol, but my pace of improvement slows a tad with each of these events. It looks like Spring should be wonderful if I freaking make it, lol.

 

[JohnKBA]

My opinion isn't all that matters. (John, you're smarter than that AND 'elvis'...)

LPT fans simply don't get to claim they represent the opinions of everyone else. Not surprisingly, the only people here arguing against the done-less-with-more POV are LPT fans. Of course, you think your program is accomplishing something. But on that point, an LPT fans' opinion doesn't matter or it certainly matters little. That also applies to the collective opinion of a million LPT fans--many of whom also think that one title is not enough.

Just listened to the cn2 "Sports Buzz" TV program on Sunday nites at 11 PM, and the guys on there were making this same point. It's a fact that no one does less with more, and you're crazy to argue the point. Duke's not even close with the talent they currently have. They've won TWO titles in the Pitino Lite timeframe, and they have had HALF the number of five-star kids. And now, they get the hell beat outta them in the ACC.

As I've said, come at the debate with data and evidence. Not just that LPT fans don't like the analysis. Of course you don't.

"Elite program", my a$$...

You know I agree with the bolded part of your comment because I've mentioned it before, but that's still just my opinion - even though it happens to align with yours doesn't mean I'm right.

 

[Mayoman]

Senore, my prayers coming your way each and every day for you on your road back to good health. Hope you have the right dr. for your next go around. Good fortune on completing your project....sounds like it will be an interesting read.

 

[Bill Derington]

I don't know what you think you've read, Bill. But no, I've never said that "stars don't matter" in either sport. I've said they're not ALL that matters, and maybe that's what you've read drawing a parallel here.

LPT basketball recruiting is so far ahead of what anyone else is doing that it has to be judged almost in isolation. We're not talking about a fractional difference on the scale between 3.0 and 3.5 stars. It's an EXCEPTION when your school doesn't ink a 5-star kid in basketball. That's operating in another realm or universe.

And then you compound that with the historically low quality of SEC basketball ex. LPT. The fact that LPT will simply get a 1- or 2-seed in the postseason because it can rack up a gaudy won-lost record. It makes a Final Four attainment meaningless.

For the same reason, it also means you typically lose when you get there. You're overrated for the Final Four. And we don't casually hand out accolades for being overrated.

Not when you're the only ones making your own case.

"Elite program", my a$$...

UK fans are the only ones saying it's been a great run the past 7 years? I know you don't believe that.
As I wrote before all 5 star talent isn't the same year in and year out, it just isn't.
Simply saying UK gets more talent than anyone also leaves out they lose more than anyone each year as well.
While it is correct Calipari chose this route, its still a fact, it isn't talent on top of talent. It's new players every year, learning a new system. Getting them to play together, as well as sacrifice for the team.
If the players stayed 2-3 years then I would agree it had been a severe let down, but they don't.

Four final 4's, 2 title game appearances and a title is not a let down in any stretch of the imagination.

UK has been to the final four as a 4 seed and an 8 seed? Both years they had the toughest path in the tourney, were they overseeded then too?

 

[KennyCardinalPowers]

i'm just tired of getting my ass kicked by not only the f*cking "UofK" team but the "UofK" fans that out number us by about a zillion.

 

[zipp]

UK fans are the only ones saying it's been a great run the past 7 years? I know you don't believe that.
As I wrote before all 5 star talent isn't the same year in and year out, it just isn't.
Simply saying UK gets more talent than anyone also leaves out they lose more than anyone each year as well.
While it is correct Calipari chose this route, its still a fact, it isn't talent on top of talent. It's new players every year, learning a new system. Getting them to play together, as well as sacrifice for the team.
If the players stayed 2-3 years then I would agree it had been a severe let down, but they don't.

Four final 4's, 2 title game appearances and a title is not a let down in any stretch of the imagination.

UK has been to the final four as a 4 seed and an 8 seed? Both years they had the toughest path in the tourney, were they overseeded then too?

The quote in the header is "done less with more"; that is, nothing is said about a "great run". That's just an LPT fan trying to change the narrative. Pose the question in the header to casual college basketball fans, and let me know the names evoked. Pitino Lite will be on the list along with others like Sean Miller at Arizona and Tom Crean, coaches you probably don't want to be identified with. And your system is your system, with the good stuff and the bad. You can't pick and choose the parts you like.

Finding exceptions doesn't debunk a conclusion based on stochastics. It's about what's more often true than not. You can't take noise out of real-world data, things that cause exceptions. For example, the year your team was an eight-seed, it was No. 1 or 2 in the country during the preseason. Lite doesn't get credit for coaching UP a team that he coached DOWN earlier in the 2013-2014 season.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Bill Derington]

You're all over the road Zipp. In one post you say UK has done less with more with charts to prove it. The next you write that UK has inflated records leading to high seeds that lead to meaningless final fours?

I like you Zipp, and I mean that. If I'm ever in a Fox hole I want you next to me, when you're in you're all in.

 

[Bill Derington]

The quote in the header is "done less with more"; that is, nothing is said about a "great run". That's just an LPT fan trying to change the narrative. Pose the question in the header to casual college basketball fans, and let me know the names evoked. Pitino Lite will be on the list along with others like Sean Miller at Arizona and Tom Crean, coaches you probably don't want to be identified with. And your system is your system, with the good stuff and the bad. You can't pick and choose the parts you like.

Finding exceptions doesn't debunk a conclusion based on stochastics. It's about what's more often true than not. You can't take noise out of real-world data, things that cause exceptions. For example, the year your team was an eight-seed, it was No. 1 or 2 in the country during the preseason. Lite doesn't get credit for coaching UP a team that he coached DOWN earlier in the 2013-2014 season.

"Elite program", my a$$...

You think Calipari is in the same category as Sean Miller and Tom Crean? You would be the only one.
I'm not picking and choosing good parts and bad, I'm simply stating facts. I'm thrilled with the results as would you be if Louisville had the same.
How can you coach down a team that hadn't played a single game together? Not to mention the starting center, that was a first round draft pick, went down with injury at halftime of a sweet 16 game.

 

[Senore2006]

Senore, my prayers coming your way each and every day for you on your road back to good health. Hope you have the right dr. for your next go around. Good fortune on completing your project....sounds like it will be an interesting read.

Thanks, Mayo!! Here's a tiny hint.........I wrote a few years ago

http://www.stevesnedeker.com/5390/jack-hicks-a-humble-legend.html

 

[zipp]

You're all over the road Zipp. In one post you say UK has done less with more with charts to prove it. The next you write that UK has inflated records leading to high seeds that lead to meaningless final fours?

I like you Zipp, and I mean that. If I'm ever in a Fox hole I want you next to me, when you're in you're all in.

Appreciate the backhanded compliment, but LPT fans can't understand their issues or they refuse to. The does-less-with-more argument is based simply on your incoming talent and the championships you've won. Again, you understand that; you're just debating facts.

The NCAA selection committee is supposed to seed teams based on their record against teams of certain strength/quality. The system is biased in favor of wins, period, so you benefit relatively speaking by playing in a bad conference. That's a benefit in terms of seeding, not in terms of tournament preparedness.

And higher seeded teams advance further in the tourney, in part because of that seeding. (Why do you think everyone wants a higher seed?...) So advancing by being overseeded is NOT a good indicator of performance as you're trying to make it by considering an accomplishment ALONG the path to championship, e.g., the Final Four. You should esp. embrace that POV when your team makes multiple Final Fours and fails to win it. Lite's Final Four record is not particularly good...

 

[Senore2006]

You think Calipari is in the same category as Sean Miller and Tom Crean? You would be the only one.
I'm not picking and choosing good parts and bad, I'm simply stating facts. I'm thrilled with the results as would you be if Louisville had the same.
How can you coach down a team that hadn't played a single game together? Not to mention the starting center, that was a first round draft pick, went down with injury at halftime of a sweet 16 game.

Calipari is in his own category. It is becoming increasingly unique and that's not all bad. Lord knows his rep needed some rehabilitation, not that you care, lol. He is a mad success as a recruiting machine, he reminds me of Mack Brown when he coached Texas. A lot of the best players called him. May as well be the same thing with John. He's got the con down. He won't kill you. You get to play your game. If there is any real science to Calipari's recruiting it is in statistical categories and conventions. The numbers of truly elite ballplayers who can immediately win by evolving as a basketball team are somewhere south of #10. Maybe the Top 3-5. Get two or heaven forbid 3 players in the Top 10 and you'll compete for a title. Statistical fact.

He's no Geno, lol.

 

[zipp]

I got operated on August 24th in this 10 hour extravaganza. I sort of even died when it was over - lol...

I don't think any of us realized that, and I'm sorry to have forced that update with my question. It was none of my business, I was just asking out of respect and maybe to incentivize more from you here if and when you're feeling up to it.

In the meantime, a few of us who don't have an "off" switch will continue to put up the good fight. Best of luck getting back all the way, and don't be a stranger when it's the right time...

 

[JohnKBA]

FYI zipp, I'm having this same argument with a group of UK fans right now, and it seems split about 50/50 on my side (we should be winning more titles with all the talent) and the other (1/7 is fine, we won 7 in the previous 115 years.)

Frankly I couldn't care less about the number of 5 stars, McD's AAs, NBA Draft picks, etc.

This team seems too flawed to win it all, but if they managed to pull it off this year it would flip the narrative for me - 2 titles/5FFs in 8 years would be acceptbale IMO.

 

[earsky]

i'm just tired of getting my ass kicked by not only the f*cking "UofK" team but the "UofK" fans that out number us by about a zillion.

 

[earsky]

FYI zipp, I'm having this same argument with a group of UK fans right now, and it seems split about 50/50 on my side (we should be winning more titles with all the talent) and the other (1/7 is fine, we won 7 in the previous 115 years.)

Frankly I couldn't care less about the number of 5 stars, McD's AAs, NBA Draft picks, etc.

This team seems too flawed to win it all, but if they managed to pull it off this year it would flip the narrative for me - 2 titles/5FFs in 8 years would be acceptbale IMO.

Most UK fans I know(a lot) are older like me.I grew up with them and they love the attention that Cal has brought back since Pitino left.However, they prefer that Cal would make it more about the program,one of the storied,and they don't think he's doing that.

Now,if somehow the Cats had won 1 or 2 more while also accomplishing what's happened on draft night,then.....

 

[zipp]

FYI zipp, I'm having this same argument with a group of UK fans right now, and it seems split about 50/50 on my side (we should be winning more titles with all the talent) and the other (1/7 is fine, we won 7 in the previous 115 years.)

Frankly I couldn't care less about the number of 5 stars, McD's AAs, NBA Draft picks, etc.

This team seems too flawed to win it all, but if they managed to pull it off this year it would flip the narrative for me - 2 titles/5FFs in 8 years would be acceptbale IMO.

Those stats don't surprise me because I've seen your own fanbase wage arguments like this.

Strip away the management issues--which would be enormous for a coach like Pitino--but if Pitino had that kinda talent at his discretion, I can only imagine how much success he would have coaching anywhere. That's evidently the trade-off...either a coach can get that talent, or he can coach it to perform. Seldom can one guy do both.

The less-with-more argument is valid except that it paints only half the picture... Ending up with "more" is just as important as what you do with it. How does Lite get that many 5-star guys to commit? That's as important as "can he coach them?" You should have more than one championship based on the boatload of talent at LPT. But with the same talent that anyone else has, is it right to expect anymore championships than one over an 8-year span? Go back and look at successive 8-year spans in LPT history, and tell me what % of those had multiple championships.

Hate to provide ammunition, but THAT's the counterargument to make.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

...with the same talent that anyone else has, is it right to expect anymore championships than one over an 8-year span? Go back and look at successive 8-year spans in LPT history, and tell me what % of those had multiple championships...

Did the math for the slappies...about 20% of those 8-year spans since the NCAA tourney started. Only about 10% over the last 60 years. Again, that's multiple LPT championships in an 8-year span, the percentage of those time spans.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[JohnKBA]

Those stats don't surprise me because I've seen your own fanbase wage arguments like this.

Strip away the management issues--which would be enormous for a coach like Pitino--but if Pitino had that kinda talent at his discretion, I can only imagine how much success he would have coaching anywhere. That's evidently the trade-off...either a coach can get that talent, or he can coach it to perform. Seldom can one guy do both.

The less-with-more argument is valid except that it paints only half the picture... Ending up with "more" is just as important as what you do with it. How does Lite get that many 5-star guys to commit? That's as important as "can he coach them?" You should have more than one championship based on the boatload of talent at LPT. But with the same talent that anyone else has, is it right to expect anymore championships than one over an 8-year span? Go back and look at successive 8-year spans in LPT history, and tell me what % of those had multiple championships.

Hate to provide ammunition, but THAT's the counterargument to make.

"Elite program", my a$$...

It's certainly an interesting argument that I can see both sides of. I know you aren't really meaning to "defend" Calipari in this post, but you raise a decent point - it seems he does an excellent job - maybe even the best of anyone - at 2/3 main challenges that face college coaches nowadays; recruiting and managing egos.

The third one (coaching - meaning gameplanning, in game adjustments, substitutions, etc) he isn't the best at. I'm not sure he is terrible or even just average, but he certainly isn't in the class of a K, Izzo, CRP, Stevens, etc. He does get guys who have one foot in the NBA to play defense and give up shots, but his offense is unimaginative and his defensive scheme is dependent on "out athleting" the other guys (yes, I made that word up.)

Whenever he does leave UK, if he leaves with the one title under his belt, I'll look at it as a failure. I think if he wins one more, even if he is here for another 5-6 years, 2 would be enough to call the era a success.

 

[Bill Derington]

Appreciate the backhanded compliment, but LPT fans can't understand their issues or they refuse to. The does-less-with-more argument is based simply on your incoming talent and the championships you've won. Again, you understand that; you're just debating facts.

The NCAA selection committee is supposed to seed teams based on their record against teams of certain strength/quality. The system is biased in favor of wins, period, so you benefit relatively speaking by playing in a bad conference. That's a benefit in terms of seeding, not in terms of tournament preparedness.

And higher seeded teams advance further in the tourney, in part because of that seeding. (Why do you think everyone wants a higher seed?...) So advancing by being overseeded is NOT a good indicator of performance as you're trying to make it by considering an accomplishment ALONG the path to championship, e.g., the Final Four. You should esp. embrace that POV when your team makes multiple Final Fours and fails to win it. Lite's Final Four record is not particularly good...

It wasn't meant as a backhanded compliment, I think you go over the top sometimes, but I think its part of your internet persona. I wish you'd come post over in the paddock on the UK site, I think you'd fit right in on it.

I'm not trying to make getting to the final four an accomplishment, it is an accomplishment. You're trying to justify in your mind a way that it isn't an accomplishment.

 

[Senore2006]

It wasn't meant as a backhanded compliment, I think you go over the top sometimes, but I think its part of your internet persona. I wish you'd come post over in the paddock on the UK site, I think you'd fit right in on it.

I'm not trying to make getting to the final four an accomplishment, it is an accomplishment. You're trying to justify in your mind a way that it isn't an accomplishment.

Not all accomplishments are like other accomplishments.

 

[JohnKBA]

Get well soon Senore - my wife is going through cancer treatments right now (they caught it in stage 1 so the prognosis is very good, but it's a terrible drain on her.)

Sucks that they are still cleaning up mistakes they made. Hopefully everything is back to normal soon and you can enjoy the little things in life that make it great.

 

[zipp]

...I'm not trying to make getting to the final four an accomplishment, it is an accomplishment...

Simply put, it isn't because you say it is. And your own fanbase wants more. You should be trying to reason with them. Here, you're starting to sound like a broken record.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Atrain7732]

I would like to randomly check back in here as a UK lurker (slappy, for short) to also offer my best wishes to Senore. As one who has went thru similar circumstances with a very close family member, I understand how mentally & physically exacerbating those bouts after major surgery can be. Don't know you Senore, but I empathize with your situation and offer best wishes nonetheless.

With regard to the "who has done less with more" argument, I will simply say this and leave it with regard to my portion of the discussion.

When you start to define a subjective argument as "fact" and try to use bar graphs & pie charts with skewed data in support of it, then you are way too far down the rabbit hole to be objective (that is as much of a fact as Anything else being discussed).

The fact that the data used is offered without any sort of context is dismissed.

The absurd assertion that UK MUST win a Championship or the season is a failure is another one of the aspects of the premise that is dismissed. This is done bc if the Final Fours were included, it would show UK has more than any other school in this time frame, I believe. But it is not included bc it would show the skewed data in a positive light. So it is dismissed with the claim of "doesn't count". Doesn't fit the agenda is what that really means.

The fact that UK was one of the first schools to employ the OAD method, which skews the numbers of 5-stars toward those first few years before Coach K, Self, etc began to employ the same methods, is dismissed. I bet if you checked this chart from the last say, 2-3 years, it would look different.

The fact that UK employs the OAD method and, by definition, most kids leave after 1-2 seasons, thus drastically changing from the Pre-OAD era where even super stars stayed in college for several years and gained invaluable experience & knowledge, is dismissed.

The fact that every year the recruiting services drastically overestimate & UNDERESTIMATE some of the 4-5 star players, thus materially altering the entire landscape of this discussion, is dismissed.

I know that the past 2-3 seasons both Duke & Kansas have had many more 4-5 stars bc both schools/coaches are now employing the OAD method pretty much exclusively. They clearly realized that Cal/UK's approach had some merit I would think or they wouldn't have changed their entire recruiting philosophy to begin doing it.

Many other schools are trying to do it, but cannot bc of the limited number of elite players. Pitino himself has tried in recent years to sign multiple 5-star players in the same year. I think any coach would do the same if he were able. There just happens to only be a handful who can. But you def have to take the good with the bad with any recruiting system. Just the way it is. Not dismissing anything or lowering the bar.

I am very happy with the status quo at UK. I do think the argument that we should have another title has some merit. However, in a one and done tourney stuff happens. The fact that UK was so close to a perfect season a couple years ago both gives me satisfaction and breaks my heart. But, that is the way it goes. UL has 3 in the history of their illustrious program. Regardless of five stars, to say Cal should have more is certainly not anything within the realm of "fact".

 

[JohnKBA]

Simply put, it isn't because you say it is. And your own fanbase wants more. You should be trying to reason with them. Here, you're starting to sound like a broken record.

"Elite program", my a$$...

This post sums up the crux of the whole thread perfectly - it's 100% opinion. I'm of the opinion that 1 title is too few. Some are of the opinion that 1 is good enough. Some are of the opinion that not winning the title every year is falling short. Hence we have a robust discussion

 

[zipp]

...(1) When you start to define a subjective argument as "fact" and try to use bar graphs & pie charts with skewed data in support of it, then you are way too far down the rabbit hole to be objective (that is as much of a fact as Anything else being discussed).

(2) The fact that the data used is offered without any sort of context is dismissed.

(3) The absurd assertion that UK MUST win a Championship or the season is a failure is another one of the aspects of the premise that is dismissed. This is done bc if the Final Fours were included, it would show UK has more than any other school in this time frame, I believe. But it is not included bc it would show the skewed data in a positive light. So it is dismissed with the claim of "doesn't count". Doesn't fit the agenda is what that really means.

(4) The fact that UK was one of the first schools to employ the OAD method, which skews the numbers of 5-stars toward those first few years before Coach K, Self, etc began to employ the same methods, is dismissed. I bet if you checked this chart from the last say, 2-3 years, it would look different.

The fact that UK employs the OAD method and, by definition, most kids leave after 1-2 seasons, thus drastically changing from the Pre-OAD era where even super stars stayed in college for several years and gained invaluable experience & knowledge, is dismissed.

(5) The fact that every year the recruiting services drastically overestimate & UNDERESTIMATE some of the 4-5 star players, thus materially altering the entire landscape of this discussion, is dismissed.

(6) I know that the past 2-3 seasons both Duke & Kansas have had many more 4-5 stars bc both schools/coaches are now employing the OAD method pretty much exclusively. They clearly realized that Cal/UK's approach had some merit I would think or they wouldn't have changed their entire recruiting philosophy to begin doing it.

(7) Many other schools are trying to do it, but cannot bc of the limited number of elite players. Pitino himself has tried in recent years to sign multiple 5-star players in the same year. I think any coach would do the same if he were able. There just happens to only be a handful who can. But you def have to take the good with the bad with any recruiting system. Just the way it is. Not dismissing anything or lowering the bar.

(8) I am very happy with the status quo at UK. I do think the argument that we should have another title has some merit. However, in a one and done tourney stuff happens. The fact that UK was so close to a perfect season a couple years ago both gives me satisfaction and breaks my heart. But, that is the way it goes. UL has 3 in the history of their illustrious program. Regardless of five stars, to say Cal should have more is certainly not anything within the realm of "fact".

Let's number these for ease of discussion...

(1) I always enjoy when data and evidence get dismissed. Usually means you've already won the argument...

(2) Data are data. They don't need context if they're clearly presented. Tell me where my "bars and pie charts" aren't clear?

(3) You're changing the narrative... No one has said Pitino Lite is a failure. At the other end of the spectrum, however, he's not an unabashed success. One title with a transcendental talent named "Anthony Davis" isn't sufficient for that status. And you've already been schooled by me and others why final fours are not an appropriate benchmark for your situation; as an LPT fan, you just don't like that line or reasoning. (No one else is arguing against it...)

(4) LPT fans try to separate the elements of their OAD "system". Makes it easier to rationalize underperformance. It is what it is. You get way more talent than your results show. Duke has TWO titles with HALF the number of 5-star kids. The analysis is sound.

(5) Everyone's 5-star kids are subject to the same over/under-rating? VJ King at Louisville is five stars. That variable affects everyone. It also affects 3- and 4-star kids. It's a straw man argument.

(6) No one gets the quantity of 5-star kids that LPT does. You're arguing against facts which are what you should start using.

(7) Pitino doesn't take 5-star kids because he can't coach them. Otherwise, he would recruit more of them. Again, nowhere near the quantity that LPT takes. "Lowering the bar" is a separate issue.

(8) You're not entirely happy if you acknowledge "another title" as most LPT fans do. You're rationalizing something less as a result. Not a surprise since you're an LPT fan and part of a fanbase that has always been transfixed about recruiting.

AND you don't get to come here, compose novelettes, and not have people respond. Better luck next time.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Bill Derington]

This post sums up the crux of the whole thread perfectly - it's 100% opinion. I'm of the opinion that 1 title is too few. Some are of the opinion that 1 is good enough. Some are of the opinion that not winning the title every year is falling short. Hence we have a robust discussion

I would tend to agree with you John, UK should've won 2 titles. However, I'm not disappointed in the past 7 years. If Cal coaches at UK 10 more years and still only has the one title I may feel different.

 

[Stonewall12]

Smith spent 35 years at a blue blood school littered with NBA hall of famers that actually stayed in school and won 2 titles. Calipari has spent 8 years at one with a revolving door of freshmen (yes, I understand that's his own choice) and has one title. I think the latter is more impressive myself.

Wow

 

[zipp]

Is it now pretty widely agreed that Lite should have more than one title? Can I get an "amen" from everyone? And maybe start to get LPT fans debating each other?

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

Get well soon Senore - my wife is going through cancer treatments right now (they caught it in stage 1 so the prognosis is very good, but it's a terrible drain on her.)...

Prayers for your wife as well, John...

 

[JohnKBA]

Is it now pretty widely agreed that Lite should have more than one title? Can I get an "amen" from everyone? And maybe start to get LPT fans debating each other?

"Elite program", my a$$...

I'm kind of with Bill right now - can we give him an incomplete?

If he wins another one I'd be on the opposite side of where I am, but if not, yes I will call it a disappointment.

 

[JohnKBA]

Prayers for your wife as well, John...

Thanks zipp. She is almost at the end of the treatment cycle, so we will know soon whether it worked as intended. She is just looking forward to not being worn out and sick all the time. Appreciate the kind words sir.

 

[Senore2006]

Get well soon Senore - my wife is going through cancer treatments right now (they caught it in stage 1 so the prognosis is very good, but it's a terrible drain on her.)

Sucks that they are still cleaning up mistakes they made. Hopefully everything is back to normal soon and you can enjoy the little things in life that make it great.

Thanks, John. I plan on it. Tomorrow I'm actually making a move on a suspecting female. Things could be worse, lol.

My regards to your wife for her ordeal. If she's undergoing chemo and/or radiation, trust me, I would much rather have gone that route than what transpired for me. One thing you should discover - I know I have - is that modern medicine is some seriously helpful stuff. You are also very much in the right district for that if you;re around Louisville. Best of luck going forward, man.

 

[zipp]

Thanks, John. I plan on it. Tomorrow I'm actually making a move on a suspecting female. Things could be worse, lol...

That attitude will cure a lotta ills on its own!...