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Wasn't the popular narrative that U of L football coaches?...

gocards1987 said:
Whatever relationship Jurich had with the coaches goes out the window when we are talking about millions of dollars. If it did come down to Jurich firing Petrino whatever past "friendship" they had goes out the window when one friend is trying to fire the other without paying him the 14 mil he is owed. I'm still not sure that Petrino and Jurich were really that great of friends. They didn't speak for years after Petrino jumped ship and Jurich blamed Petrino for the mess left behind (some truth to it) and had Petrino been able to ride a motorcycle properly or Strong not jumped ship we would not be talking aobut Jurich and Petrino's relationship. Petrino coming back was a business decision plain and simple. The fans wanted him back originally and Petrino had no better options than us at the time...
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I'll put it this way... Jurich was as close a friend as Petrino had at U of L. And when Jurich was canned, all of that opportunity went out the window. The clowns simply didn't anticipate that being needed, much as they screwed up not allowing Jurich to handle Pitino. Sucks for them.
gocards1987 said:
...You said that Jurich never backed himself into a corner but he did so with Petrino's contract. If he hadn't been fired it would him instead of Tyra firing Petrino. If he chose to keep him much longer Jurich would have been facing the wrath of the fans. Had he chose to wait so that he and Petrino could get in a multi-year pissing match while the fans and players suffered Jurich wouldn't have had much support left by the time it was over.
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In hindsight, Jurich backed "Vince" into a corner. And he backed U of L into a corner without the benefit of his involvement. Had Jurich not been railroaded, none of this stuff would be the issue it is. How do I know that?...I have 20 years of experience to fall back on.
 
zipp said:
I'll put it this way... Jurich was as close a friend as Petrino had at U of L. And when Jurich was canned, all of that opportunity went out the window. The clowns simply didn't anticipate that being needed, much as they screwed up not allowing Jurich to handle Pitino. Sucks for them.

In hindsight, Jurich backed "Vince" into a corner. And he backed U of L into a corner without the benefit of his involvement. Had Jurich not been railroaded, none of this stuff would be the issue it is. How do I know that?...I have 20 years of experience to fall back on.
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I think it says more about Petrino that Jurich was his closest friend considering how he treated Jurich and they went several years without speaking. Maybe you are right about Pitino considering all the drama is program faced and him being able to retire may have allowed him to save face somewhat but he still earned his firing. Allowing your program to go through back to back major scandals is completely unacceptable and its a good chance that it gets you fired.

Its okay to admit that Jurich made a mistake with the Petrino contract. The Petrino contract would have still been an issue no matter what unless you are saying that Tyra is the reason that Petrino was losing games. We hired Petrino when his only other option was WKU and we gave him an unnecessary extension. We should have been negotiating from a position of strength and gave Petrino a 8 figure buyout. Why? Was there a risk that someone was going to hire Petrino away?

Petrino has proven himself to be unloyal and self serving. He has 20 years of history to prove it. What makes you think he changed so much that he'd be winning to forgo 14 million that was owed after his buddy fired him and if we take your suggestion it would have been after we fired his entire family and publicly shamed him by taking away his playcalling responsibilities?
 
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zipp said:
Your premise is wrong. Ask Petrino if he thinks he can still coach and cares about his image, reputation, and legacy. That's the biggest part of what "done" means...
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Done at Louisville, his image, reputation and legacy have been established. Him agreeing to a smaller buyout and resigning does nothing to his image and reputation. He got fired because he went 2-10 in epically bad fashion that reality wasn't changing because he agreed to resigning not being fired. He held all the cards and he knew it.

Look at all the head coaches in college football that have been fired and recycled. Those that want to stay in the game find a way to stay in the game. I am sure that will be the case with Petrino. He knows his profession which only would have made him dig his heels in deeper. I know what I would do is get my 14 million then take my time to find the right fit or simply retire. He will be back in the game at some point as a OC.
 
zipp said:
You negotiate and present Petrino with options and consequences. "Vince" had no relationship with him and simply couldn't wait to clear the decks.

Impulsiveness comes at a cost, often a huge cost...
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What were his options or consequences except to demand the money he was owed. Tyra's options were to pay him or watch the program sink even further.
 
zipp said:
What makes a difference to 'zipp' is when you guys can find facts to support your arguments. And not just offer opinions and hypotheticals. U of L has a long history and has generated plenty of data. It doesn't change the analytics when you can't find data to support your position...
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Lol - “facts” aren’t of any value when their causation is misunderstood particularly as in your case, in a deliberate and intellectually dishonest fashion in an attempt to rationalize an agenda.

For example, stating that there have been coaching changes since Tyra became AD is a fact. Everything after that from you is “opinions and hypotheticals”. To suggest that it is anything else - much less “analytics” is laughable.
 
zipp said:
Again, find me examples over 20 years where Jurich dug himself multimillion dollar holes he couldn't climb out of. There aren't any.

What makes a difference to 'zipp' is when you guys can find facts to support your arguments. And not just offer opinions and hypotheticals. U of L has a long history and has generated plenty of data. It doesn't change the analytics when you can't find data to support your position...
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This was a unique situation in Jurich’s career. Kragthorpe wasn’t nearly this big financially. You seem to believe that my argument fails because I have no examples of Jurich not getting out of multimillion dollar holes. But that logic works both ways - you gave no examples of holes this big. Moreover, your entire argument seems to be based on the “magic” of Jurich being Jurich. My tongue in cheek recreation of the “negotiation” is pretty much the way it would have gone. Bobby held all the cards. In other negotiations, like on the arena, TJ was aggressive (correctly so) and got the best deal for UofL because he had leverage. He had leverage with Pitino if he had had the chance to use it. But with Bobby, no. Since you can’t give me an example of TJ magically getting out of a contract that big, and can’t tell me how his “relationship” with Bobby would have manifested itself in a much smaller payout, I must reject your premise
 
Knucklehank1 said:
Jurich had a relationship with Krags as well and yet he paid him out all his contract when he fired him. Why wasn’t that negotiated down?
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What was he paid as a buyout, and how much was that as a % of U of L's revenue?...
 
gocards1987 said:
I think it says more about Petrino that Jurich was his closest friend considering how he treated Jurich and they went several years without speaking. Maybe you are right about Pitino considering all the drama is program faced and him being able to retire may have allowed him to save face somewhat but he still earned his firing. Allowing your program to go through back to back major scandals is completely unacceptable and its a good chance that it gets you fired.

Its okay to admit that Jurich made a mistake with the Petrino contract. The Petrino contract would have still been an issue no matter what unless you are saying that Tyra is the reason that Petrino was losing games. We hired Petrino when his only other option was WKU and we gave him an unnecessary extension. We should have been negotiating from a position of strength and gave Petrino a 8 figure buyout. Why? Was there a risk that someone was going to hire Petrino away?

Petrino has proven himself to be unloyal and self serving. He has 20 years of history to prove it. What makes you think he changed so much that he'd be winning to forgo 14 million that was owed after his buddy fired him and if we take your suggestion it would have been after we fired his entire family and publicly shamed him by taking away his playcalling responsibilities?
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Again, Jurich faced plenty of significant obstacles in his storied tenure here. And he never found himself in the financial straits that "Vince" has found himself in one stinking year. That's because the clowns miscalculated, and "Vince" is in over his head. He can't do anything but buy someone out with whom he has no relationship--Pitino, Petrino, or anyone else.

Petrino had the same buyout that Mack and Satterfield have, and it was less than Brohm's is with Purdue. The simple size of these buyouts is not the problem; it's how you manage them...
 
Thecycle27 said:
Done at Louisville, his image, reputation and legacy have been established. Him agreeing to a smaller buyout and resigning does nothing to his image and reputation. He got fired because he went 2-10 in epically bad fashion that reality wasn't changing because he agreed to resigning not being fired. He held all the cards and he knew it...
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Well, we'll never know since "Vince" opened the vault. Both guys could have parted company for less money and saying good things about each other. Lipstick on a pig. But it doesn't sound like "Vince" considered that an option. So we pay millions...
 
teamcanada said:
What were his options or consequences except to demand the money he was owed. Tyra's options were to pay him or watch the program sink even further.
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"Vince" had a contract in front of him with ambiguous payoff terms. And like all coaches, Petrino was trying to salvage what he could. No reason to simply pay the guy 100 cents on the dollar. That's not what a "businessman" does...
 
BPGhost said:
Lol - “facts” aren’t of any value when their causation is misunderstood particularly as in your case, in a deliberate and intellectually dishonest fashion in an attempt to rationalize an agenda.

For example, stating that there have been coaching changes since Tyra became AD is a fact. Everything after that from you is “opinions and hypotheticals”. To suggest that it is anything else - much less “analytics” is laughable.
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Some guys simply dismiss and discount data they don't like. Usually, they don't offer better data in response, because it doesn't exist. They substitute opinions and hypotheticals and wave their arms. A sight to behold...
 
beantowncard said:
This was a unique situation in Jurich’s career. Kragthorpe wasn’t nearly this big financially. You seem to believe that my argument fails because I have no examples of Jurich not getting out of multimillion dollar holes. But that logic works both ways - you gave no examples of holes this big. Moreover, your entire argument seems to be based on the “magic” of Jurich being Jurich. My tongue in cheek recreation of the “negotiation” is pretty much the way it would have gone. Bobby held all the cards. In other negotiations, like on the arena, TJ was aggressive (correctly so) and got the best deal for UofL because he had leverage. He had leverage with Pitino if he had had the chance to use it. But with Bobby, no. Since you can’t give me an example of TJ magically getting out of a contract that big, and can’t tell me how his “relationship” with Bobby would have manifested itself in a much smaller payout, I must reject your premise
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Are you saying that the financial consequences with Petrino's contract were greater than, for example, conference changes? Or football stadium expansions or the move to Bailout Arena? Or shoe company contracts?

Jurich navigated big dollar issues almost flawlessly, and there's no reason to believe there was anything "unique" about Petrino's contract. It just looked that way with "Vince" managing it...
 
zipp said:
I have no idea, nor that he did. Nor do I recall how it compared to ULAA finances overall.

Petrino's buyout was close to 15% of U of L's budget...
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He paid out 100% of the contract. And yet, I thought I read on here that someone skillful in managing relationships like TJ shouldn’t or wouldn’t have to do that. It’s just tough to comprehend.
 
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zipp said:
Are you saying that the financial consequences with Petrino's contract were greater than, for example, conference changes? Or football stadium expansions or the move to Bailout Arena? Or shoe company contracts?

Jurich navigated big dollar issues almost flawlessly, and there's no reason to believe there was anything "unique" about Petrino's contract. It just looked that way with "Vince" managing it...
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Of all your arguments, this is the most absurd, and that’s saying something. All transactions are not the same. In all the above transactions, which were all handled well, Jurich, HAD LEVERAGE. Vince NQ had no leverage. Neither would TJ, if it had been him. Once again, you are down to Tom being magical, and the “clown show” not bein magical. But there is no magic in contract negotiations.
 
zipp said:
"Vince" had a contract in front of him with ambiguous payoff terms. And like all coaches, Petrino was trying to salvage what he could. No reason to simply pay the guy 100 cents on the dollar. That's not what a "businessman" does...
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A contract is a contract. Unless Petrino chose to not pursue the money he was owed he was going to get. No AD, no matter how skilled was going to get him to take less since unfortunately losing is not a “for cause” reason to fire someone without their buyout.
 
zipp said:
Again, Jurich faced plenty of significant obstacles in his storied tenure here. And he never found himself in the financial straits that "Vince" has found himself in one stinking year. That's because the clowns miscalculated, and "Vince" is in over his head. He can't do anything but buy someone out with whom he has no relationship--Pitino, Petrino, or anyone else.

Petrino had the same buyout that Mack and Satterfield have, and it was less than Brohm's is with Purdue. The simple size of these buyouts is not the problem; it's how you manage them...
Click to expand...

Jurich had the benfit of not having to deal with the fallout of the Jurich era. Louisville faced obstacles but they faced different obstacles. He atleast had the fanbase behind him since the prevous administration hadnt had scandal after scandal.

Its a problem that Mack’s buyout and Petrino’s is the same. When we hired Mack he was a hot name in coaching. The same goes for Satterfield to a lesser degree. With Mack though, when any of the blue blood jobs openned he was going to be on the short list for them. When we hired Petrino we had to deal with bad PR for bringing him in and his best option was WKU. We had all the leverage. Why would he have a buyout similar to a sought after coach?
 
zipp said:
Well, we'll never know since "Vince" opened the vault. Both guys could have parted company for less money and saying good things about each other. Lipstick on a pig. But it doesn't sound like "Vince" considered that an option. So we pay millions...
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Your opinion is Jurich would have negotiated a better deal than Tyra, yet you have no proof Jurich ever negotiated a smaller buyout when the coach was terminated without cause. He didn't with Crum, Cooper or Kragthrope. However you ingnore those data points. You have no data to support your position.
 
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Knucklehank1 said:
He paid out 100% of the contract. And yet, I thought I read on here that someone skillful in managing relationships like TJ shouldn’t or wouldn’t have to do that. It’s just tough to comprehend.
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100% of a buyout ain't a big deal if it's a million. Petrino's was 14X that...
 
beantowncard said:
Of all your arguments, this is the most absurd, and that’s saying something. All transactions are not the same. In all the above transactions, which were all handled well, Jurich, HAD LEVERAGE. Vince NQ had no leverage. Neither would TJ, if it had been him. Once again, you are down to Tom being magical, and the “clown show” not bein magical. But there is no magic in contract negotiations.
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'Splain to me how Jurich had more "leverage" in each of those situations. I'm fascinated...
 
gocards1987 said:
A contract is a contract. Unless Petrino chose to not pursue the money he was owed he was going to get. No AD, no matter how skilled was going to get him to take less since unfortunately losing is not a “for cause” reason to fire someone without their buyout.
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So I'll keep saying it... Find me a situation in twenty years that Jurich had to shell out $14 million to get himself out of a problem.
gocards1987 said:
Jurich had the benfit of not having to deal with the fallout of the Jurich era. Louisville faced obstacles but they faced different obstacles. He atleast had the fanbase behind him since the prevous administration hadnt had scandal after scandal.

Its a problem that Mack’s buyout and Petrino’s is the same. When we hired Mack he was a hot name in coaching. The same goes for Satterfield to a lesser degree. With Mack though, when any of the blue blood jobs openned he was going to be on the short list for them. When we hired Petrino we had to deal with bad PR for bringing him in and his best option was WKU. We had all the leverage. Why would he have a buyout similar to a sought after coach?
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You mean Jurich didn't have to handle the messes he himself made in twenty years? Boggles the mind...
 
Thecycle27 said:
Your opinion is Jurich would have negotiated a better deal than Tyra, yet you have no proof Jurich ever negotiated a smaller buyout when the coach was terminated without cause. He didn't with Crum, Cooper or Kragthrope. However you ingnore those data points. You have no data to support your position.
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SIZE MATTERS. Why negotiate a small buyout? Just get rid of the guy. Crum and K-rag each got around $2 million, Cooper about $1 million.

Petrino's buyout was 15% of the budget...
 
zipp said:
Some guys simply dismiss and discount data they don't like. Usually, they don't offer better data in response, because it doesn't exist. They substitute opinions and hypotheticals and wave their arms. A sight to behold...
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Were you looking in the mirror when you posted that?
 
zipp said:
100% of a buyout ain't a big deal if it's a million. Petrino's was 14X that...
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I don’t know. You are the one that argued that Jurich would’ve utilized his great relational skills to reduce the buyout to a fired coach. Yet I’m struggling to find examples of that throughout his career. If you are going to posit a hypothetical, having some data to back it up would be helpful.
 
Knucklehank1 said:
I don’t know. You are the one that argued that Jurich would’ve utilized his great relational skills to reduce the buyout to a fired coach. Yet I’m struggling to find examples of that throughout his career. If you are going to posit a hypothetical, having some data to back it up would be helpful.
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Not quite. I said Jurich never backed himself into a $14 million hole despite dealing with some pretty big financial decisions in 20 years. History shows that...
 
zipp said:
So I'll keep saying it... Find me a situation in twenty years that Jurich had to shell out $14 million to get himself out of a problem.

You mean Jurich didn't have to handle the messes he himself made in twenty years? Boggles the mind...
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Show me a situation where Jurich’s predecessor put him in a situation where it cost 14 mil to fire a losing coach? You keep saying that Jurich never backed himself into a 14 mil hole when he did. Unless im mistaken he made Petrino’s contract and forced us to have a 14 mil dollar buyout for a losing coach.

Jurich had issues as every AD does but what he didnt have to do was clean up after allowing the bball program to have a huge ncaa scandal almost immediately after getting through a major ncaa scandal. I still appreciate what Pitino and Jurich did but its inexcusable that the bball program is wrapped up in the fbi scandal. There is no way any uofl assistant should have even thought about being on tape talking about paying a player. How do we not have compliance officers on top of compliance officers around the bball program at all times.
 
zipp said:
'Splain to me how Jurich had more "leverage" in each of those situations. I'm fascinated...
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1. Arena - UofL was the main tenant. TJ couldn’t be bullied, and made the best deal possible. He had Freedom Hall, and a potential on-campus facility, in his back pocket.
2. Pitino - had already committed potentially fireable offenses with Sypher and strippergate. A third strike and Jurich would be negotiating from a position of strength. Of course, if the BoT hadn’t been in such a rush to remove both Jurich and Pitino, this actually might have played out.

Those were the only two examples I mentioned. With Bobby, he would have only had a poor season. He was locked in to a contract and the only way out was to do what Jurich had always done - honor the contract. Vince NQ just did what TJ would have done, though either one might have been able to spread out the payments more than they did, to reduce the impact on the budget. We don’t know if TJ would/ could have done that. We know Vince NQ didn’t.
 
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