Hahaha, that's pretty good Kerry. Nah, Cal and UK will be fine no matter what the rule for freshmen is.
Coach K Says Fifth Year Transfers Are Hurting College Basketball
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That is a very silly comment. He gets a lot of the best players now because they know that they will be catered to by him and because cow puts them above the program. They certainly aren't going to uk to be coached up - in fact quite the opposite - they're simply going there in the hope to further their "brand" unfettered. There is a reason that Pitino doesn't get those kids - his reputation of being demanding on freshman. Why put up with that when you can run the show in lexington? If a kid knows he's going to be at a school multiple years - there are about 2 dozens coaches that would teach them more basketball than cow.
This notion that Cal caters to these kids is silly.
They don't choose Pitino because he has a history of 5 star players bombing. That's the truth of the matter.
He didn't have any problem getting commits from them early in his tenure at Louisville.
Calipari gets the coddled 5 star players to play for the team and not themselves.
It's not as easy as just rolling the ball out there, Self has recruited highly at Kansas with far poorer results.
Make no mistake, Calipari is the only one running the show on his team.
They don't choose Pitino because he has a history of 5 star players bombing. That's the truth of the matter.
He didn't have any problem getting commits from them early in his tenure at Louisville.
Calipari gets the coddled 5 star players to play for the team and not themselves.
It's not as easy as just rolling the ball out there, Self has recruited highly at Kansas with far poorer results.
Make no mistake, Calipari is the only one running the show on his team.
Cal doesn't get the 5-6 best players in the country every year he just gets 5-6 of the best 20-25 players in the country. Why is it that so many of the players ranked as high or higher than the ones Cal gets don't have the same level of success in college or in the pros? That's a huge hole in your theory that Cal doesn't teach them anything
Off the beat here a little bit here: But Randle always comes to mind. He plays two semesters at uk, goes pro and only has 4 credit hours in two semesters. That isn't right. By 30 the kid will be working in a radio shack or selling cars. THAT ISN'T RIGHT!
I agree, that isn't right. I don't believe it is true either. Do you have a valid source for this information?
Do me a favor Bill - define "bombing" for me? Is bombing not being successful in college? Is it not making it to the professional level or the NBA? You do realize that some 5 stars are overrated coming out of HS? (see-Labissiare, Scab)
For the record, Pitino has gotten a total of 3 McD AA during his tenure at UofL that coincides with cow's tenure at Kentucky - 7 in total with two skipping college to go directly to the pros. Bill Self during this same time span has signed 9 total McD AA's - not a bad haul. Cow during this time frame has landed 24 burger boys (21 if you hold the intellectually dishonest view that Wall, Murray and Scab wouldn't have been chosen for the game if not for various technicalities and other assorted buggery). Quite a difference wouldn't you say?
Leaving aside the MASSIVE differences in their recruiting - what do all three coaches actually have in common? Oh yeah that's right - they all have the same number of NCAA titles in that span. Proving the point again and again, never has anyone done as little when it counted, with as much as cow EVER.
My theory was in response to your supposition that if they changed the rule for OADs that cow would "continue to get the best players available". I don't think he would - he didn't while at memphis but, I guess we would only know for sure if they changed the rule. I'm not sure that you could call it "teaching" but, cow does get the majority of his recruits to agree to sacrifice some of their shots in exchange for being able to build their brand on a national stage and, against glorified mid-major conference opponents.
4 final fours, 2 title game appearances is not failing BP.
His run is also much better than Self and Pitino in the time frame.
Besides, ratings aren't everything....right?
I never said cow was a failure Bill, I simply stated the irrefutable fact that never has a college coach had such an embarrassment of riches player wise, and done less championship winning. Honestly the last time that I can remember any coach approaching the amount of talent he's had year in and year out, was John Wooden - and I think we all know what he did with his talent.
cow's "run" ends in the exact same spot as Pitino and Self - 1 title - it just took him 15+ extra McD AAs to get his - lol.
Don't forget to mention Calipari's first round NIT flame out to Bobby Mo and a Round of 32 exit as well after being ranked #1/#2 to start the season and with #1 recruiting classes and multiple burger boys.
I hope coaches can use guys like Isaiah Briscoe, Harrison Twins, Marcus Lee, Alex Poythress, etc as recruiting examples of how the Squid can't coach players into NBA talent. In fact, he takes players who are considered 1st round NBA projections and turns them into late 1st round or 2nd round picks. Also, several players realize they are forced to come back 1 more year because they didn't learn squat under the Squid. Think about what Pitino could have done with Derek Willis in 4-years.
IMO, it is not an indictment of Calipari as much as it shows the reason why the NBA wanted a minimum age limit. The Twins are a perfect example. They were 5-Star recruits out of high school. Their size and skill made them dominant forces at the HS level. But once they got to college, they were exposed for what they are... power guards with some outside shooting... but not lottery pick players. Without the current rules, they would have been NBA busts and cautionary tales... with the current rules, they are exposed as overrated.
I've stayed out of this one because the entire discussion is littered with opinions and "what if" scenarios, but comparing Calipari to Wooden is a little naive IMO. During Wooden's tenure, the kids couldn't even play as freshmen, and on top of that they never left school early. Apples and oranges.
I'll offer an "opinion" here - UK may not have won the 2012 title under those circumstances, but they'd likely be coming off a 3 peat right now with the sophomore through senior years of Davis and MKG having just finished up at the end of the 2014/15 season.
It's a fun discussion though. I think at this point it's been pretty well established that above average upperclassmen are more valuable to a team's title aspirations than superb freshmen. Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram are the consensus top 2 picks in this year's NBA draft. I'd take the 2015/16 versions of Buddy Hield, Kriss Dunn, Brice Johnson, Jakob Ploetl, Denzel Valentine, etc over either of those 2 guys for my college team though.
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It's easy to throw stones at Calipari on this, and I understand it's a U of L board so it's to be expected - but the truth is that most years,over half of the RSCI top 20 don't live up to expectations. Frankly, with the sheer number of those guys Calipari has taken, I'm surprised he hasn't had more busts. As OneEar points out, for myriad reasons, excellent high school players don't always make excellent college players.
Given the current environment. I'd be surprised in Cal's guys were allowed to fail. ...with all those whistles going their way and all.
The comparison to Wooden was strictly based on the disparity of talent signed at one school vs other programs in the same time frame. I'm not saying that the two eras are mirror images of one another and you don't have to agree with the analogy but there's nothing naive about it.
calipari chooses to run the yut program as a OAD factory - that's his prerogative - and he certainly gets most players that he wants. But again, I don't see anything incorrect in pointing out that his success level - and titles are what count - has not been commensurate with his talent pool.
True statement but, it works for other coaches as well. Bill made the comment earlier about Pitino having a horrible track record with 5 stars - perhaps those kids for a variety of reason fit that statement.
Oh I agree BP - every coach who has recruited guys in the top 25 has seen both overachievers and underachievers, especially while they are underclassmen. The more 5 star players you recruit/replace every year, the lower your margin for error. As you pointed out earlier though, it's what Calipari has chosen to do, so he has to live with the end results.
It needs to be said because it may give insight on why he makes comments- what serves him best at the moment.
Pitino has a horrible track record of 5-star players because he won't coddle them and promise them immediate playing time or a starting role. I also think Pitino was burned in the past with the elite-level HS players like Telfair, DeSagana Diop, or Amir Johnson that he's changed his recruiting tactics. Give me a 3-4 year player any day over a crop of one-and-dones.
IMO, It's better to have a balance. All teams need young talent to mesh with experienced players who are also talented. It seems to work better when there is a upperclassmen pecking order for leadership. When you have true freshmen looked at as leaders with upperclassmen asked to take on lesser team roles, hard feelings and contempt can grow and fester within. Not always, but most of the time it becomes a real hassle to deal with the hard feelings.
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