Coach K Says Fifth Year Transfers Are Hurting College Basketball

[shadow force]

"I would tell you this, the one-and-done from high school is not the story of college basketball," Krzyzewski said. "The one-and-done with the fifth-year graduate player is what is the main story for college basketball. There are many, many more of those.

"And that's hurt a lot of our mid-major programs when these kids leave and go. Many, many more. Very few one-and-done from high school, very few compared to that."

The rule, which allows players to transfer upon graduation without having to sit out a year, is one that Duke's upcoming opponent has benefited from in more sports than one.

Oregon guard Dylan Ennis, a graduate transfer from Villanova who's been limited to just two games this season with an injury, is understandably in disagreement with Krzyzewski's take on the rule.

"They think fifth-year guys shouldn't be able to leave and play right away," Ennis told the Oregonian. "I feel like if you went to school for four years and you realize in your last year you don't like it, and you have a chance to play somewhere else, why not?

"Coaches get to change schools without any reprimand. If they leave a program, they can go anywhere and coach right away. They don't have to sit out. I don't see why guys who have graduated can't do that."

Oregon head coach Dana Altman also expressed disagreement with Krzyzewski's opinion when asked about the topic on Wednesday.

"It's not an easy question," Altman said. "So many things are now geared toward the student athlete. And if a young man graduates, which we're asking him to do, does he have that option? Should he have that option? There's varying opinions on that. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. But if a young man does graduate and does want to look around, it's pretty hard to tell him, no, he doesn't have any options."

 

[earsky]

K doesn't need them.He's busy securing oads.Same with Cal.If they weren't busy cornering the market on 5 stars,they'd have a different opinion.

 

[kozmas]

Unfortunately Cal and K are thinking of these student athletes as employee's of the university in which they are not. The biggest injustice is coaches and universities using these kids for their basketball talent with no intention of them ever getting an education.

 

[KerryRhodes]

"Coaches get to change schools without any reprimand. If they leave a program, they can go anywhere and coach right away. They don't have to sit out. I don't see why guys who have graduated can't do that."





All that needs to be said. Next........

 

[rentalman]

Cal & K year in year out get the cream of the crop of the HS Players. They don't like it because this could level the playing field in a given year.. Both got a taste of it this year when UL beat Duke and almost beat UK at their place.

There is a rumor Frankie Hughes was let go because there is another 5YR guy coming to UL in addition to Tony Hicks. If true, and these guys have a major impact on the team, Cal & K will really start beating the Tom Toms and attempt to snuff this trend out.

Having said that it has to be very frustrating to a coach who invests 4 years developing a player and the player ends up going elsewhere.

 

[thecycle21]

This whole debate says a lot about how coaches view kids, they are a commodity. A student athlete LOI is year to year. The athlete should be able to transfer at the end of each year with no penalty. A coach can send them packing at the end of each year which happens but the student athlete stills is penalized.

I really have a hard time understanding why a student that has met his/her academic goal of graduating shouldn't be allowed to explore other academic goals. Coach K how are they exactly hurting college basketball? How is a getting a degree and pursuing other options a bad thing? The truth is it doesn't hurt the sport. The only people being hurt are the coaches of those players and maybe if the coach did his job well the player wouldn't have left in the first place.

 

[Knucklehank1]

So now Coach K is so concerned about the plight of mid-majors??? That's funny. How about he address the real issue between high majors and mid-majors -- the fact that high major coaches make 10x the salary of mid and low majors and have 10x the resources in recruiting, travel, etc, etc.

 

[CardinalDave]

I cannot believe there is even a debate going on regarding this issue. The supposed reason these kids go to college is TO GET A DEGREE. If said student does that in two years or three years they should be able to do whatever they desire. It boggles my mind that there is opposition to this. All the while many schools get a " student athlete" who has no intention of getting a degree. When I was in college if you had a bad semester you went on probation, two bad semesters and you sit out a semester. So basically a one and done could come in, go through the motions for the fall term, be place on probation for spring and then hang it up completely and withdraw after the NCAA tournament is over. That is not to say all of these kids do this. I am certain some do fine and progress towards a degree. But I am positive some do nothing but skate by until they go prepare for the NBA draft in the spring.

 

[nccardfan]

Cal & K year in year out get the cream of the crop of the HS Players. They don't like it because this could level the playing field in a given year.. Both got a taste of it this year when UL beat Duke and almost beat UK at their place.

There is a rumor Frankie Hughes was let go because there is another 5YR guy coming to UL in addition to Tony Hicks. If true, and these guys have a major impact on the team, Cal & K will really start beating the Tom Toms and attempt to snuff this trend out.

Having said that it has to be very frustrating to a coach who invests 4 years developing a player and the player ends up going elsewhere.

A coach can't spend 4 years developing a player unless he's a redshirt. You only have 4 years of eligibility. All this would be resolved if the 5th year guy enrolled in classes that are intended for a 2nd degree or a masters. Not classes just to be taking them so they can play.

 

[Cue Card]

I can see both sides of this argument but I'll always side with student athletes. Is it hurting the so called "Mid Major" programs? No more than Mid Major coaches building up programs then leaving for better jobs. What is the difference? The student athletes are not employees is the biggest difference, although it appears some coaches want to treat the young athletes as property instead of student athletes.

 

[nccardfan]

Whether it's right or wrong is not the issue. College athletes are an investment. Coaches spend a lot of time, get tutors when needed, room and board, get to travel, etc. they are like employees in one aspect they can be kept or let go at will, just ask Rasheed Sulaimon.

 

[Cue Card]

Whether it's right or wrong is not the issue. College athletes are an investment. Coaches spend a lot of time, get tutors when needed, room and board, get to travel, etc. they are like employees in one aspect they can be kept or let go at will, just ask Rasheed Sulaimon.

I agree college athletes are an investment, and regarding college football and basketball, a very wise lucrative investment. If that investment helps the athletic department in question make millions of dollars each year, then I don't really see a problem with the investment changing directions as to which athletic department he or she wishes to help make the money as long as the investment held up his/her end of the deal and graduates with a college degree.

 

[rentalman]

A coach can't spend 4 years developing a player unless he's a redshirt. You only have 4 years of eligibility. All this would be resolved if the 5th year guy enrolled in classes that are intended for a 2nd degree or a masters. Not classes just to be taking them so they can play.

I could be mistaken but I don't believe you can take advantage of the 5th Year Transfer Rule unless you have obtained an undergraduate degree from your original school. I think most of them do enroll in post graduate programs at their new school.

 

[cardsfan53]

People will find a way to bash or justify to for their own benefit. Wasn't Coach K dogging the OAD just a few years ago?

 

[NENCHeel]

When K-Rat says something is hurting college ball he means it's hurting HIM at the moment. He thinks he is college ball, period.

Ask him if mid-majors suffer because dook basketball does summer long "tours" in Europe so he can work in games and practice times while players get academic credits. Mids can't offer those benefits but dook can.

 

[GoCardsfromNY]

The notion of going to a university to play only one year of ball makes a mockery of the whole endeavor, whether that one year happens at the start of your college career or the end of it. It's a rent-a-player philosophy completely detached from any academic mission. How Coach K or anyone else can make a distinction between the two is beyond me.

The only difference is that the NCAA could close the fifth-year transfer rule if wanted to. The freshman rule is mandated by the age limit by the NBA, so that's out of the NCAA's hands. I'm sure the NCAA will address this question as soon as it wraps up its investigation of North Carolina. Sorry, had to get that in there.

I like Coach K, and he does a great job stewarding not just Duke but USA Basketball. But he's way off the mark here. Also, Grayson Allen doesn't trip players, he's just a phenomenal athlete who also happens to be clumsy.

 

[CardsFirst]

As long as the attention is on done and ones it keeps the focus off the one and dones. Which is where the attention should be. How does anyone with any common sense thinks one and dones are good for COLLEGE athletics. I'll bet most done and ones that can't transfer will simple graduate and move on with their lives. I can't imagine Coach K and the weasel being bias. Their only looking out for the best interest of the student athlete. Right? Sarcasm in case you didn't figure it out.

 

[NENCHeel]

No problem GoCards...we've been called everything but Mister for the past 5 years so we just let it slide.

 

[OmegaCard]

I never cared for him. There's good video out there of him sitting next to Denny being interviewed, and it seems like Denny doesn't like him either.

Says a lot of what he thinks of student athletes. Just think of all those poor coaches..

 

[EasyCard]

The notion of going to a university to play only one year of ball makes a mockery of the whole endeavor, whether that one year happens at the start of your college career or the end of it. It's a rent-a-player philosophy completely detached from any academic mission. How Coach K or anyone else can make a distinction between the two is beyond me.

The only difference is that the NCAA could close the fifth-year transfer rule if wanted to. The freshman rule is mandated by the age limit by the NBA, so that's out of the NCAA's hands. I'm sure the NCAA will address this question as soon as it wraps up its investigation of North Carolina. Sorry, had to get that in there.

I like Coach K, and he does a great job stewarding not just Duke but USA Basketball. But he's way off the mark here. Also, Grayson Allen doesn't trip players, he's just a phenomenal athlete who also happens to be clumsy.

There is a huge difference in the 1&done and the done&1 when it comes to the mission of the University. The whole purpose of college is to receive a degree. For 5th year transfers their goal is to receive a graduate degree which in most cases can be accomplished in 18 months. So a 5th year is more than half way from earning another degree at the end of their transfer year. How can anyone not believe this is a good situation for the 5th year student? Consider a 1&done can take 6 credit hours his second semester and still play the 1st year it is clear a 1&done makes a mockery of college.

 

[Cardsmack29]

Cal & K year in year out get the cream of the crop of the HS Players. They don't like it because this could level the playing field in a given year.. Both got a taste of it this year when UL beat Duke and almost beat UK at their place.

There is a rumor Frankie Hughes was let go because there is another 5YR guy coming to UL in addition to Tony Hicks. If true, and these guys have a major impact on the team, Cal & K will really start beating the Tom Toms and attempt to snuff this trend out.

Having said that it has to be very frustrating to a coach who invests 4 years developing a player and the player ends up going elsewhere.

It might be frustrating to those coaches but to some degree they have to understand that those players put in the time and if they aren't happy then they deserve to leave for anther school after fulfilling their part of the contract which is graduating from their school.

 

[kozmas]

I am wondering if politics and money will win this debate. Duke and sUcK are both Nike schools and they are both being funneled athletes through www. If they don't win titles because the done & one athlete is throwing a clog into their success will Nike pressure the NCAA to change this rule using money as leverage ?

 

[rentalman]

I am wondering if politics and money will win this debate. Duke and sUcK are both Nike schools and they are both being funneled athletes through www. If they don't win titles because the done & one athlete is throwing a clog into their success will Nike pressure the NCAA to change this rule using money as leverage ?

Damn right they will.

 

[cardsfan53]

At the least those kids who have completed a degree should be rewarded. These kids went to class and did the right way they where STUDENT athletes.

What's funny is a coach can leave and get more money or a guy like Ben Simmons can just decide to quit school and gets to go to the NBA and makes millions.

 

[shadow force]

I guess Coach K is alright with in game serial tripping incidents as well. (it had to be said.)

 

[moe#8]

Cal & K year in year out get the cream of the crop of the HS Players. They don't like it because this could level the playing field in a given year.. Both got a taste of it this year when UL beat Duke and almost beat UK at their place.

There is a rumor Frankie Hughes was let go because there is another 5YR guy coming to UL in addition to Tony Hicks. If true, and these guys have a major impact on the team, Cal & K will really start beating the Tom Toms and attempt to snuff this trend out.

Having said that it has to be very frustrating to a coach who invests 4 years developing a player and the player ends up going elsewhere.

has Cal made a statement about 5 yr players??

 

[rentalman]

has Cal made a statement about 5 yr players??

Yes, when his buddy Bruiser Flint was fired at Drexel, which is where Damion Lee played before transferring to UL.

 

[OmegaCard]

I am wondering if politics and money will win this debate. Duke and sUcK are both Nike schools and they are both being funneled athletes through www. If they don't win titles because the done & one athlete is throwing a clog into their success will Nike pressure the NCAA to change this rule using money as leverage ?

It's why I don't buy anything Nike anymore. Trying to turn the sport into some kind of street hustle. Then cry like a baby when things don't go their way. They control the top players so it wouldn't surprise me at all that they control the refs as well.

 

[Steelers2012]

has Cal made a statement about 5 yr players??

Here is Coach Calipari's comments on the subject, following Bruiser Flint's firing.

"But what happened was, the NCAA has a rule that a kid can leave a program like Drexel after being coached and molded for three years and go to another school without having to sit out. If (Damion) Lee is there, they're in the NCAA Tournament. We're not even talking in these terms, but that happened. It's not about the school (Louisville) that took him. It's about we let it happen.

"Understand, I've been in a dogfight to say this is ridiculous. We took a kid because I saw Duke did it. Even then, I was like it disgusts me that we're doing this. The kid was going to go somewhere, so why don't we take him?

"This is not only hurting there. It's just bad for the business, bad for kids. It's another thing the NCAA will say whatever they want to say. It's not good for the game. It's not good for these kids. And it caught Bru. Thanks.''

And here was MY response (in the thread here that already discussed this topic) to Coach Calipari's comments regarding Louisville taking Damion Lee.

Point #1: Bruiser Flint was fired because he NEVER ONCE made the NCAA tournament in his 15 seasons at Drexel. I'm not sure what took them so long to pull the plug.

Point #2: Flint and Drexel went 11-19 last season WITH Damion Lee and his 21.4 pts/gm.

Point #3: In the 2012-13 season, John Calipari took Wright State's leading scorer, senior Julius Mays, away to play his final season at UK.

 

[CATFANFOLIFE87]

I don't agree with Cal or Coach K. In Cal's case I think he was just taking up for his friend. I doubt he really cares if it hurts mid major programs.

Where I see hypocrisy is when people rip on one and dones saying that they don't care about the university, that you never get a chance to get to know them before they're gone, ect. It's not just Pitino or UL fans that have said that about UK it fans and coaches around the country. I think UL fans and Pitino grew to love Lee and Lewis more than many of the 3-4 year players in recent memory. I think both players will rep UL hard for the rest of their lives even though they only spent one year there

 

[moe#8]

Here is Coach Calipari's comments on the subject, following Bruiser Flint's firing.

"But what happened was, the NCAA has a rule that a kid can leave a program like Drexel after being coached and molded for three years and go to another school without having to sit out. If (Damion) Lee is there, they're in the NCAA Tournament. We're not even talking in these terms, but that happened. It's not about the school (Louisville) that took him. It's about we let it happen.

"Understand, I've been in a dogfight to say this is ridiculous. We took a kid because I saw Duke did it. Even then, I was like it disgusts me that we're doing this. The kid was going to go somewhere, so why don't we take him?

"This is not only hurting there. It's just bad for the business, bad for kids. It's another thing the NCAA will say whatever they want to say. It's not good for the game. It's not good for these kids. And it caught Bru. Thanks.''

And here was MY response (in the thread here that already discussed this topic) to Coach Calipari's comments regarding Louisville taking Damion Lee.

Point #1: Bruiser Flint was fired because he NEVER ONCE made the NCAA tournament in his 15 seasons at Drexel. I'm not sure what took them so long to pull the plug.

Point #2: Flint and Drexel went 11-19 last season WITH Damion Lee and his 21.4 pts/gm.

Point #3: In the 2012-13 season, John Calipari took Wright State's leading scorer, senior Julius Mays, away to play his final season at UK.

thanks Steelers, I remember Mays now.

 

[BPGhost]

I don't agree with Cal or Coach K. In Cal's case I think he was just taking up for his friend. I doubt he really cares if it hurts mid major programs.

Where I see hypocrisy is when people rip on one and dones saying that they don't care about the university, that you never get a chance to get to know them before they're gone, ect. It's not just Pitino or UL fans that have said that about UK it fans and coaches around the country. I think UL fans and Pitino grew to love Lee and Lewis more than many of the 3-4 year players in recent memory. I think both players will rep UL hard for the rest of their lives even though they only spent one year there

I agree - those fans that use those reasons specifically as ones to rail against the OAD players but don't apply them to DAO players are being hypocritical. What is not hypocritical is to point out the difference in the one year experience. OAD's make a mockery of what being a student-athlete is supposed to be about, whereas DAO's are the ultimate student athletes - having already graduated. For those coaches like cow and K, I'd like an explanation of how a OAD moving on to play BB professionally is in any way different than a DAO moving on to play for a better college program. In both instances, colleges and coaches have invested in the players only to lose them to (hopefully) a better situation.

Both types (and the programs that participate) are playing within the rules as they currently stand. It's interesting though, the only real chance of either of the rules changing, is the one pertaining to the DAO's. Why, because as usual, it's all and only about the $$'s.

 

[CATFANFOLIFE87]

I agree - those fans that use those reasons specifically as ones to rail against the OAD players but don't apply them to DAO players are being hypocritical. What is not hypocritical is to point out the difference in the one year experience. OAD's make a mockery of what being a student-athlete is supposed to be about, whereas DAO's are the ultimate student athletes - having already graduated. For those coaches like cow and K, I'd like an explanation of how a OAD moving on to play BB professionally is in any way different than a DAO moving on to play for a better college program. In both instances, colleges and coaches have invested in the players only to lose them to (hopefully) a better situation.

Both types (and the programs that participate) are playing within the rules as they currently stand. It's interesting though, the only real chance of either of the rules changing, is the one pertaining to the DAO's. Why, because as usual, it's all and only about the $$'s.

The 5th year players would've left after one year if they had the opportunity to make millions doing what they love. Every player under Cal besides Orton has stayed through both semesters and fullfilled their academic requirements. Most have been very good people that were visible in the community doing charitable works. It doesn't mean they were bad students or making a mockery of academia because they made the best decision for them and their families. The risk of major injury is one that most aren't willing to take when the money is there for them after their freshman year. A knee injury could derail their entire career. Most of these kids come from poor families and I can't blame them for jumping at an opportunity that will change the lives of their family forever. If not having that opportunity for 5 years makes DAO's the "ultimate student athlete" so be it but I'm sure they'd trade that for a guaranteed NBA contract

 

[BPGhost]

The 5th year players would've left after one year if they had the opportunity to make millions doing what they love. Every player under Cal besides Orton has stayed through both semesters and fullfilled their academic requirements. Most have been very good people that were visible in the community doing charitable works. It doesn't mean they were bad students or making a mockery of academia because they made the best decision for them and their families. The risk of major injury is one that most aren't willing to take when the money is there for them after their freshman year. A knee injury could derail their entire career. Most of these kids come from poor families and I can't blame them for jumping at an opportunity that will change the lives of their family forever. If not having that opportunity for 5 years makes DAO's the "ultimate student athlete" so be it but I'm sure they'd trade that for a guaranteed NBA contract

Pretty sure I didn't call any OAD out - or any uk OAD - so your rush to defend them was a bit thin skinned and, completely unwarranted - though as a yut fan, I'm sure you're hypersensitive to the issue.

I'm not in the habit of maligning a kid's character - nor have I said that they are bad people or, are doing something wrong.

No, my contention was that the OAD system in place makes a mockery of the term "collegiate student athlete" because as we all know, they are only there because it's required. I'm all for going back to the system that allows kids to go directly to the pros - as you said, between the knee injuries and poor families, it's the right thing to do.

K would be alright but, not sure that would be the best thing for cow - as Xs and Os would be more at a premium than Jimmies and Joes. Game management/strategy has never been a strength of his.

 

[zipp]

I can see both sides of this argument but I'll always side with student athletes...

This is also why the DAO rule won't change anytime soon regardless of what is said about it by whoever it happens to be. Too much political pressure on college sports which "uses" student-athletes without compensation to make hundreds of millions.

Let the naysayers talk and just smile like the nitwit in my avatar...

 

[CATFANFOLIFE87]

Pretty sure I didn't call any OAD out - or any uk OAD - so your rush to defend them was a bit thin skinned and, completely unwarranted - though as a yut fan, I'm sure you're hypersensitive to the issue.

I'm not in the habit of maligning a kid's character - nor have I said that they are bad people or, are doing something wrong.

No, my contention was that the OAD system in place makes a mockery of the term "collegiate student athlete" because as we all know, they are only there because it's required. I'm all for going back to the system that allows kids to go directly to the pros - as you said, between the knee injuries and poor families, it's the right thing to do.

K would be alright but, not sure that would be the best thing for cow - as Xs and Os would be more at a premium than Jimmies and Joes. Game management/strategy has never been a strength of his.

Cal would still get the best players available and would keep them more than one year. I don't think that would benefit anymore more than it would Cal

 

[teamcanada]

Cal would still get the best players available and would keep them more than one year. I don't think that would benefit anymore more than it would Cal

Before he hooked up with Wes Cal wasn't getting the best players available. If my memory serves me he never even sniffed the tournament while UofL and Cincy were in Conference USA. If the kids were allowed to go straight to the league I think Nike or World Wide wouldn't have as much interest in the college game anymore. The best solution would be for the NCAA to make Freshmen ineligible again.

 

[Bill Derington]

Calipari would win even if They change the rules, just like he did at UMASS.

Best solution for whom? If WWW were pushing kids to UK there would be no need for Cal to constantly be on the road recruiting, but I guess that's just part of the cover up.

 

[KerryRhodes]

Calipari would win even if They change the rules, just like he did at UMASS.

Best solution for whom? If WWW were pushing kids to UK there would be no need for Cal to constantly be on the road recruiting, but I guess that's just part of the cover up.

Win what, the $EC?
I can get 15 guys at my job to finish 2nd place in that non P5 conference.

He can sign every player in the top 15, every year and still not win the Title.

 

[L1c4tillidie]

Sounds like they're scared of the 2017 title favorites. L1C4