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davecmc

davecmc

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Sep 12, 2006
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I'm a bit confused on their NOA, but as I read this...

It appears there is zero allegations against the basketball team, because not only did multiple basketball players enroll in sham, ghost classes to keep their GPA up, but the classes were also technically available to the general student population. This makes the fraud and improper benefit to all students, so the basketball program is not held accountable. At all. In no way. Even though multiple players were directed to these non-existent classes to stay eligible.

So, if any other student who wasn't a basketball player was ever at one of Andre's stripper parties, that makes the whole thing absent of improper athletic benefits???

Someone help me out here??

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bas...ar-heels-latest-ncaa-news-tough-make-sense-of
 
I guess it's not an "improper" benefit if the benefit is offered to everyone across the board including non student-athletes who weren't on any type of student-athlete scholarship? Makes perfect sense to me. The academic fraud was offered to everyone so no specific group was given special treatment! LOL.

Now all we need is for non student-athletes to come forward and say the strip parties and cheap hookers were offered to everyone! There's the out!! I'll be first. Where's the petition? I'll sign it and swear I was there getting serviced which was offered to everyone equally!! :confused:
 
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Exactly Cue Card! That's the precedent being set here.

We may have jumped the gun with last year's self-imposed sanctions. If we have any non-athletes attending McGee parties, it's not an improper benefit and there very likely could have been others in attendance. Like you and me for instance o_O
 
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davecmc said:
Exactly Cue Card! That's the precedent being set here.

We may have jumped the gun with last year's self-imposed sanctions. If we have any non-athletes attending McGee parties, it's not an improper benefit and there very likely could have been others in attendance. Like you and me for instance o_O
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I remember you! It was nice meeting you Dave! I just wish the girls could have been a bit higher quality. All in all, it just wasn't all that good of a time. I wish I had my $10 back. :eek:
 
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davecmc said:
I'm a bit confused on their NOA, but as I read this...

It appears there is zero allegations against the basketball team, because not only did multiple basketball players enroll in sham, ghost classes to keep their GPA up, but the classes were also technically available to the general student population. This makes the fraud and improper benefit to all students, so the basketball program is not held accountable. At all. In no way. Even though multiple players were directed to these non-existent classes to stay eligible.

So, if any other student who wasn't a basketball player was ever at one of Andre's stripper parties, that makes the whole thing absent of improper athletic benefits???

Someone help me out here??

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bas...ar-heels-latest-ncaa-news-tough-make-sense-of
Click to expand...
NCAA is not an academic vetting institution of universities. They are hesitant to set precedent in determining and/or setting a curriculum standard that Universities must follow. If a University wants to have a no attendance, no test-taking courses, it is not within the NCAA's scope to judge the validity of these courses. Universities determine student-athlete eligibility, not the NCAA.

I'm struggling to find the correct action to apply to the obvious academic fraud of the participating student athlete if UNC is unwilling to decertify the course work retrospectively. But, of UNC did this, it would have to void all the degrees it issued to every student who took these classes. That ain't gonna happen.

UNC should be more worried about the accreditation of the School in which the course was offered, which I assume is a Arts &Science school. Accreditation is everything to these institutions and everyone takes these types of scandals serious with serious penalties.
 
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That is the University's take. The real issue is that these classes were bogus and players like McCants never did one lick of coursework. It was all being orchestrated by the so called tutor. Now the classes may have been available to all students but the fact that you didn't have to go to class or take exams was not, only for the "athletes"
 
davecmc said:
...So, if any other student who wasn't a basketball player was ever at one of Andre's stripper parties, that makes the whole thing absent of improper athletic benefits???...
Click to expand...
I don't think you're confused at all. And I don't think there's anything wrong with your reasoning if you're trying to defend yourself. A parallel line of questioning might also be how could something be an impermissible benefit if nothing was obtained in exchange?

What U of L did was answer these kinds of questions for the NCAA and to our own detriment. When the facts in our case are revealed, we will know whether or not that was a good decision.

BTW, since Minardi is not a players only dorm, and since you often see players running around with non-players, I'll betcha there were non-athletes, maybe even non-students, materially involved. These were parties, and who can and can't attend is not that well regulated...
 
In a court of law the burden of proof would be that the stripper parties were held exclusively for the recruits/players and a defense lawyer could argue that they weren't exclusive, that others benefitted; however the NCAA does not need that proof, they just need to believe that the parties were held for the "benefit" of the recruits and players.
 
I remember about 10 years ago where Georgia set up classes similar to what UNC did and they got nailed to the wall over it.
Any school that is being investigated by the NCAA for anything should just tell the NCAA to f**k off. Any school who had been punished should demand their money back that they paid in penalties and all wins restored.
If UNC can set up fake classes and just throw in a couple of students in it so it will be legit without reprucussions by the NCAA then any school can do anything. Not to mention the agents on the UNC campus using middle men to funnel money and cars to the players.
Roy Williams left KU on probation when he left for UNC, you know good and well he knew what was taking place.
 
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Going back a few years... But the old Wildcat Lodge at LPT was opened up to non-basketball players to allow it to survive.

As usual, fans living in a glass LPT house throwing stones.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
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Now I will take the University's side. I don't think the university purposely set up bogus classes to deceive anyone. Initially they set up a well intended program to help athletes and other students (mostly minorities) that needed academic assistance. Now we all know what happens with good intentions and the likelihood is the tutor found a way to "profit" from this arrangement, maybe not unlike Andre. The question is where is the money trail?
 
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OK as to "fake classes"....they existed, students and student athletes were given assignments and were not given grades if they did no complete the work. The classes being called "fake" required reading an and a 25 page paper being turned in to be graded. Easy? Per some, very easy. To others, not so easy compared to other classes.

Did UNC create the classes and program for jocks?. That is a complete lie as uncovered in the $3.1 million dollar investigation by the an ex-FBI Director's law firm. He went back to it's creation in the late 1970s and found in it's early ears it was judged to be one of the toughest courses of study on campus.

The numbers show it wasn't just a few non SAs that took AFAM classes...it was slightly over 51% IIRC.

EasyCard is dead on as to the NCAA's stated role IR to judging courses. There are no Universities that are willing to give up that role to a sports authority. In it's initial NOA the NCAA did just that..they tried to label a set of classes as impermissible benefits and were told by a very expensive legal firm "OK, here are your own bylaws. You can't label these courses as impermissible according to them. Want to cite UNC, fine...we'll see you in court." Apparently the NCAA talked to their own Legal Staff and backed way down.

The charges IR impermissible benefits were kept for the WBB program because there as a direct tie in to an aide (named Boxhil) to the women's team who talked with the Admin Sec who ran the classes under a very weak and disinterested Chair. She specifically asked for a player to receive a high grade. The Admin admitted she didn't give anyone less than an A or a B so it didn't matter. THAT was the smoking gun.

As to Accreditation, we have been audited since this stuff first came about. Our Association placed us on Probation for a year last June and said they would reconsider the accreditation based on our plans to correct the situations that allowed lax oversight on the academic end.

I'm sure some of you won't believe a word I've typed but that's life. :)

BTW some of you may have visited a website known as PackPride, a Scout site for NCSU. They have been credited (by themselves mainly) as being supersleuths in leading the internet charge about our sins. It's a nice lesson about never completely trusting what you read on fan sites.

http://www.tarheelblog.com/2016/4/26/11505372/catfishing-the-banner-chasers
 
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I'm behind UNC's stance and defense against these claims. You don't just fold like a cheap suit because the NCAA hound dogs started yapping.

Until everything is resolved, you won't know for sure which strategy--fight or cave--is best. But my nature is NOT to do what U of L did...
 
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Cue Card said:
Sorry. I couldn't help myself. It was just floating out there waiting to be smashed. Bleedingblue makes for a great set up man!
Click to expand...

Gentlemen,

Great comeback! However, if the NCAA determines a few innocent parties are a greater "educational benefit" sin than 20 years of academic fraud...we should hear no complaints from this fan base...should we? Just a hearty...Go ACC....Go ACC!
 
CaliforniaCatFan58 said:
Gentlemen,

Great comeback! However, if the NCAA determines a few innocent parties are a greater "educational benefit" sin than 20 years of academic fraud...we should hear no complaints from this fan base...should we? Just a hearty...Go ACC....Go ACC!
Click to expand...

You seem to have completely missed Cue's reference entirely. It had nothing to do UNC's infractions or seeming lack of punishment. His reference, that you quote, was a response to the irony of a UK (and presumed John Calipari) fan's criticism of a coach who left a program on probation in his wake, while claiming ignorance to any wrongdoing. I think Stevie Wonder can see the pot calling the kettle black in that post.
 
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We will be punished. I'm told we are expecting possibly a 1-2 year probation for all programs and a record-setting fine. WBB will be heavily sanctioned. However other sports are not expected to be hit with scholarship losses. We will find out when the COI rules late this Summer or early Fall.
 
davecmc said:
Exactly Cue Card! That's the precedent being set here.

We may have jumped the gun with last year's self-imposed sanctions. If we have any non-athletes attending McGee parties, it's not an improper benefit and there very likely could have been others in attendance. Like you and me for instance o_O
Click to expand...


MAYYYYYYYYYYY HAVE ???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Steelers2012 said:
You seem to have completely missed Cue's reference entirely. It had nothing to do UNC's infractions or seeming lack of punishment. His reference, that you quote, was a response to the irony of a UK (and presumed John Calipari) fan's criticism of a coach who left a program on probation in his wake, while claiming ignorance to any wrongdoing. I think Stevie Wonder can see the pot calling the kettle black in that post.
Click to expand...

Really? I will be the pot! Calipari says he knew nothing. Yet it cost him 2 Final Fours (at least he paid something). Roy knows nothing, it will cost him nada. K knew nothing (Maggette ineligible for taking money and testifying before a grand jury to same. Are there different definitions of ineligible Derrick Rose asks?); it cost Duke nothing. CRP knows nothing...time will tell how much the cost is. The reference was to blast a poster that was associated with UK, but was really trumpeting the same themes of all fans here (No I don't think I missed the reference). Of course there is nothing ironic for the poster about blasting a UK supporter just for the heck of it. However, it is very ironic no one wants to share their opinion to the possibility of UL getting the hammer while UNC rides off on a white horse. I ask you; "Do you honestly think Roy new nothing?" "Do you honestly think CRP knows nothing/?" I will accept Calipari knew everything!!! Granted, I am a bit naïve....how about you? Can you tell me you know in your heart CRP knew nothing? We can all bury our heads in the sand and back our own coaches to the point of "unethical groupthink" and accept across the board cheating as an "everyone does it (says a lot for our own morals we will pass to our children)", and be real keyboard warriors and attack other posters in ways we would not even consider face to face. It doesn't matter if it is UL, UK, or Southwestern Utah State. The field should be level. Now who is pot...and who is kettle? JMHO.
 
I just hope for UL's sake the good old "Tobacco Road" boys aren't willing to pull the old ACC "Sacrifice a Cardinal" to "Save the Goat!" We shall see. Good luck.
 
NENCHeel said:
We will be punished. I'm told we are expecting possibly a 1-2 year probation for all programs and a record-setting fine. WBB will be heavily sanctioned. However other sports are not expected to be hit with scholarship losses. We will find out when the COI rules late this Summer or early Fall.
Click to expand...
Hope not. The NCAA is a bunch of rubes, and it's worth the fight. I'm embarrassed that we took a dive from all indications. But if the guy made the decision for us who said he did, I'm not surprised.

I want the Heels to emerge from this with as little damage as possible. Unless you're a slapd!ck, there's no other rational position to take.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
CaliforniaCatFan58 said:
Really? I will be the pot! Calipari says he knew nothing. Yet it cost him 2 Final Fours (at least he paid something). Roy knows nothing, it will cost him nada. K knew nothing (Maggette ineligible for taking money and testifying before a grand jury to same. Are there different definitions of ineligible Derrick Rose asks?); it cost Duke nothing. CRP knows nothing...time will tell how much the cost is. The reference was to blast a poster that was associated with UK, but was really trumpeting the same themes of all fans here (No I don't think I missed the reference). Of course there is nothing ironic for the poster about blasting a UK supporter just for the heck of it. However, it is very ironic no one wants to share their opinion to the possibility of UL getting the hammer while UNC rides off on a white horse. I ask you; "Do you honestly think Roy new nothing?" "Do you honestly think CRP knows nothing/?" I will accept Calipari knew everything!!! Granted, I am a bit naïve....how about you? Can you tell me you know in your heart CRP knew nothing? We can all bury our heads in the sand and back our own coaches to the point of "unethical groupthink" and accept across the board cheating as an "everyone does it (says a lot for our own morals we will pass to our children)", and be real keyboard warriors and attack other posters in ways we would not even consider face to face. It doesn't matter if it is UL, UK, or Southwestern Utah State. The field should be level. Now who is pot...and who is kettle? JMHO.
Click to expand...

Wow...you get ALL of that angst out of the post below? That's a LOT of assumption read into a pretty benign retort, that you apparently perceived as a full scale attack. It was a silly post for a UK fan to make on your rival's board (or any non-UK board for that matter) given your coaches history with leaving programs before NCAA issues under his watch come to light. Nobody called him a name; nobody cursed him. ONE poster simply pointed out the hypocrisy in his post; nothing more, nothing less.

Yet somehow John Calipari had no clue "what was taking place" at UMass or at Memphis State. Am I right????

Makes one wonder if he's still clueless in Lexington. What say you? :rolleyes:

 
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No angst. Just facts. It is just a message board and everyone defends their home turf. Yes, I hope he remains "Clueless in Lexington for many years." By the way...no assumptions in my "benign retort" (nice academic jab for my edification) either...just viable questions. if no one will answer my questions regarding CRP or Roy's knowledge, or lack thereof...I think their "Calipari (Whose program is not currently under NCAA investigation) is dirty licenses" should be revoked. Again, JMHO. Take care and Go Cards!
 
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CaliforniaCatFan58 said:
No angst. Just facts. It is just a message board and everyone defends their home turf. Yes, I hope he remains "clueless in Lexington for many years." By the way...no assumptions in my "benign retort" (nice academic jab for my edification)" either...just viable questions. if no one will answer my questions regarding CRP or Roy's knowledge, or lack thereof...I think their "Calipari (Whose program is not currently under NCAA investigation) is dirty licenses" should be revoked. Again, JMHO. Take care and Go Cards!
Click to expand...

To be honest, I can't make out what implications are being made here, or even what your point is, so I will wish you a good night, and leave it at that....and hope you do the same.
 
Steelers2012 said:
To be honest, I can't make out what implications are being made here, or even what your point is, so I will wish you a good night, and leave it at that....and hope you do the same.
Click to expand...

Ok...let's try this...I made a statement and asked you a question:

"However, it is very ironic no one wants to share their opinion to the possibility of UL getting the hammer while UNC rides off on a white horse. I ask you; "Do you honestly think Roy new nothing?" "Do you honestly think CRP knows nothing/?" I will accept Calipari knew everything!!! Granted, I am a bit naïve....how about you? Can you tell me you know in your heart CRP knew nothing?"

Do you see any implications now?

1. Can you tell me you know in your heart Roy or CRP knew nothing?"
2. Your opinion of the possibility of UL getting the hammer while UNC rides off on a white horse.

That is really all I wanted to know. Just your opinion.
 
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I think he's making an association with the national perception that Cal might have known something and wishful thinking about whether or not Pitino and Williams did.
 
Regardless of our wishes UL is in the state of Kentucky. They are an in state institution which is an economic asset. I would hate to see UL penalized while others are omnipotent. Yes, I think the NCAA are "Rubes" also.
 
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earsky said:
I think he's making an association with the national perception that Cal might have known something and wishful thinking about whether or not Pitino and Williams did.
Click to expand...

You think? I now know your opinion clearly. Roy knew nothing. CRP knew nothing. Cal knew everything. Thanks.
 
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