Can I answer?In my heart,he didn't know.Should he have known?Yes
UNC
- Thread starter davecmc
- Start date
I did not say that...you did. I just feel UL is going to feel a lot more heat in a shorter period of time from the NCAA than UNC.
Here ya go...I have no idea if Roy, Pitino, OR Calipari know/knew anything. I have no way of knowing, and make no assumptions of his/their guilt or innocence in their individual circumstances. If Piitno is perceived by the NCAA to have known, I won't have anymore reaction than I did when I discovered it "appears" Williams is perceived to be innocent, or when Calipari was cleared of wrongdoing. There, asked and answered. Now...how about giving it a rest?
[QUOTE="NENCHeel, post: 295233, member: 2394"
The numbers show it wasn't just a few non SAs that took AFAM classes...it was slightly over 51% IIRC.
EasyCard is dead on as to the NCAA's stated role IR to judging courses. There are no Universities that are willing to give up that role to a sports authority. In it's initial NOA the NCAA did just that..they tried to label a set of classes as impermissible benefits and were told by a very expensive legal firm "OK, here are your own bylaws. You can't label these courses as impermissible according to them. Want to cite UNC, fine...we'll see you in court." Apparently the NCAA talked to their own Legal Staff and backed way down.
The charges IR impermissible benefits were kept for the WBB program because there as a direct tie in to an aide (named Boxhil) to the women's team who talked with the Admin Sec who ran the classes under a very weak and disinterested Chair. She specifically asked for a player to receive a high grade. The Admin admitted she didn't give anyone less than an A or a B so it didn't matter. THAT was the smoking gun.
[/QUOTE]
Your argument would be a lot more persuasive if 49% of UNC students were athletes in NCAA-sanctioned sports. I have no idea what percentage of UNC students are athletes but I doubt it is anywhere close to 49%. UNC did nothing more than set up a program to make athletes eligible with BS courses and then protected themselves by letting all students take them.
The numbers show it wasn't just a few non SAs that took AFAM classes...it was slightly over 51% IIRC.
EasyCard is dead on as to the NCAA's stated role IR to judging courses. There are no Universities that are willing to give up that role to a sports authority. In it's initial NOA the NCAA did just that..they tried to label a set of classes as impermissible benefits and were told by a very expensive legal firm "OK, here are your own bylaws. You can't label these courses as impermissible according to them. Want to cite UNC, fine...we'll see you in court." Apparently the NCAA talked to their own Legal Staff and backed way down.
The charges IR impermissible benefits were kept for the WBB program because there as a direct tie in to an aide (named Boxhil) to the women's team who talked with the Admin Sec who ran the classes under a very weak and disinterested Chair. She specifically asked for a player to receive a high grade. The Admin admitted she didn't give anyone less than an A or a B so it didn't matter. THAT was the smoking gun.
[/QUOTE]
Your argument would be a lot more persuasive if 49% of UNC students were athletes in NCAA-sanctioned sports. I have no idea what percentage of UNC students are athletes but I doubt it is anywhere close to 49%. UNC did nothing more than set up a program to make athletes eligible with BS courses and then protected themselves by letting all students take them.
Easy you are certainly welcome to your opinion. But in it's early years, aka the early 1980's, AFAM was rated in the top two of UNC's programs as far as difficulty goes. That's saying something since it was judged harder than such courses as pre-med, pre-law, and other traditional programs. If UNC set it up as "easy" then it certainly failed in it's initial history.
If you think back to what was going on in the civil rights movements in the 1970's you'll find a good number of Universities in this country set up Minority or AF-AM type courses to both assure the DEA and it's students that their race and ethnic values were being taken into account. BTW the number of total classes that the Admin Asst "taught" had slightly over 3000 students in the course of 18 years. Some people assumed she WAS part of the Faculty in fact.
It's descent into a minor level program actually began in the mid 1990's when a new Department Chair was hired who wanted to "grow" the course to enhance his own reputation. It was noted in most the EIGHT separate investigations into the academic scandal that the people who were supposed to be in positions of oversight in the College of Arts and Sciences took the position that Professors were not to be questioned as to their methods and simply paid no attention to how the Program was administered. You will also find the Academic Support groups who report to the AD side of the leadership jungle passed along concerns to the CAS that some of their students were calling some of the AFAM classes "crip courses" and were told it was none of their business since it was an academic issue.
Some of the Faculty who initially were all in favor of passing the whole thing off as an Athletic Department scandal are still upset that their assumptions on the purity of each other's motives and results are being held up to scrutiny. As much as anything else we've learned that there are still changes to be made in the system.
If you think back to what was going on in the civil rights movements in the 1970's you'll find a good number of Universities in this country set up Minority or AF-AM type courses to both assure the DEA and it's students that their race and ethnic values were being taken into account. BTW the number of total classes that the Admin Asst "taught" had slightly over 3000 students in the course of 18 years. Some people assumed she WAS part of the Faculty in fact.
It's descent into a minor level program actually began in the mid 1990's when a new Department Chair was hired who wanted to "grow" the course to enhance his own reputation. It was noted in most the EIGHT separate investigations into the academic scandal that the people who were supposed to be in positions of oversight in the College of Arts and Sciences took the position that Professors were not to be questioned as to their methods and simply paid no attention to how the Program was administered. You will also find the Academic Support groups who report to the AD side of the leadership jungle passed along concerns to the CAS that some of their students were calling some of the AFAM classes "crip courses" and were told it was none of their business since it was an academic issue.
Some of the Faculty who initially were all in favor of passing the whole thing off as an Athletic Department scandal are still upset that their assumptions on the purity of each other's motives and results are being held up to scrutiny. As much as anything else we've learned that there are still changes to be made in the system.
I have no intention to become schooled in all of the minutiae in this case. But I think it's entirely possible that an operative or two within UNC athletics came to the realization that this was an easier way to keep their athletes eligible. (That's unless there's proof that a course or program was set up primarily to keep athletes eligible.) And student-athletes were disproportionately steered in that direction.
If U of L had significantly dummied down its engineering program, we'd probably have more students and athletes graduating with U of L engineering degrees. Thankfully as one of those, that's simply an absurd example. But the thought process is the same. If education is secondary, someone will take the easier path.
And I continue to find no reason why U of L fans would feel any vindication seeing UNC punished severely in this matter. Our decision to self-penalize was just that, OUR decision. UNC administrators had no role in what WE decided. As an ACC fellow institution, I want what's best for the ACC. And that's seeing UNC get this behind them as quickly and easily as possible...
If U of L had significantly dummied down its engineering program, we'd probably have more students and athletes graduating with U of L engineering degrees. Thankfully as one of those, that's simply an absurd example. But the thought process is the same. If education is secondary, someone will take the easier path.
And I continue to find no reason why U of L fans would feel any vindication seeing UNC punished severely in this matter. Our decision to self-penalize was just that, OUR decision. UNC administrators had no role in what WE decided. As an ACC fellow institution, I want what's best for the ACC. And that's seeing UNC get this behind them as quickly and easily as possible...
What's best for the ACC or any academic university is that they are held to the same standard. There should be no preference if they are UNC, Duke, UK or U of L for that matter. If one program cheats and doesn't get punish, doesn't mean that it is ok to cheat.
John Swofford would agree with you in front of a camera. And then echo what I said once his mike was turned off...
Let me say first that I hate what's happening at UL. IMO it was very unfair to this years team to self impose in the middle of the year.
I posted here a few months ago that MBB would not be touched. UK, Dook & NC state fans led a false media blitz against UNC.
Taking those classes was NEVER a violation. Those classes were approved & accredited classes. The NCAA has no jurisdiction over what classes ANY university offers. They were never fake.... They were easy paper classes.
The programs that are in danger of sanctions are because they had special favors to have their athletes placed in those classes & had grades changed (WBB).
I posted here a few months ago that MBB would not be touched. UK, Dook & NC state fans led a false media blitz against UNC.
Taking those classes was NEVER a violation. Those classes were approved & accredited classes. The NCAA has no jurisdiction over what classes ANY university offers. They were never fake.... They were easy paper classes.
The programs that are in danger of sanctions are because they had special favors to have their athletes placed in those classes & had grades changed (WBB).
uncfan, I hope you're right. The vast majority of U of L fans enjoy competing against quality programs like the Heels. As was the case here, it's only a few people or kids who go off track that can ruin it for everyone else. The ACC needs both of our athletic programs at full strength!...
The ACC is our home and we do not need our home to be sullied. As other posters have alluded to we need all of our fellow members to be clean and at full strength. This isn't rocket science guys.
GO CARDS - BEAT EVERYBODY!!! God Bless America!!!
GO CARDS - BEAT EVERYBODY!!! God Bless America!!!
Not if we get punished (which our president did to us already because of "the heat" from the local media- agenda) and they don't. Their deed was far more dastardly!
Last edited:
I'm not down with whitewashing this UNC scandal. Here we are having to go through all this turmoil that is hurting recruiting, the program, and the brand overall; and folks think it's ok that UNC skates on what I think is the worst cheating scandal in the history of college athletics.
Providing "extra benefits", paying players, etc. is against the rules and cheating - but it's not cheating the young people who are already being taken advantage of by a system exposed as a farce. Actually, looking at it from a fairness perspective, the players deserve any extra benefit they receive. But an institution stealing the only thing of value they're supposedly giving a student/athlete - an education - is unforgivable. UNC used their players like rented mules, then cheated them out of their agreed upon compensation (as inadequate as it was to begin with). UNC had a moral obligation to guide, push and develop student/athletes academically to get the most from their "education" (i.e., the compensation for the servitude), not devise ways to cheat them out of it so they could stay eligible to provide more benefit for the university. UNC cheated the students and their families - and they did it as a matter of institutional policy for decades.
So, here's the word we should use to describe UNC's basketball program - CRIMINAL, because UNC is a thief. It should be put out front in the college athletic hall of shame. I don't care if UNC is in our conference, the program should absolutely receive the death penalty for some period, because all other past transgressions of providing "extra benefits" pale by comparison - both in scope and morality.
Providing "extra benefits", paying players, etc. is against the rules and cheating - but it's not cheating the young people who are already being taken advantage of by a system exposed as a farce. Actually, looking at it from a fairness perspective, the players deserve any extra benefit they receive. But an institution stealing the only thing of value they're supposedly giving a student/athlete - an education - is unforgivable. UNC used their players like rented mules, then cheated them out of their agreed upon compensation (as inadequate as it was to begin with). UNC had a moral obligation to guide, push and develop student/athletes academically to get the most from their "education" (i.e., the compensation for the servitude), not devise ways to cheat them out of it so they could stay eligible to provide more benefit for the university. UNC cheated the students and their families - and they did it as a matter of institutional policy for decades.
So, here's the word we should use to describe UNC's basketball program - CRIMINAL, because UNC is a thief. It should be put out front in the college athletic hall of shame. I don't care if UNC is in our conference, the program should absolutely receive the death penalty for some period, because all other past transgressions of providing "extra benefits" pale by comparison - both in scope and morality.
UNC's transgressions have absolutely nothing to do with what happened at Minardi Hall. I would like to believe that most UNC fans are supportive of our situation simply because we are ACC brethern. Question: What good does it do us for UNC to be severely punished? Nada. And I repeat what I've said before, Dr. Ramsey had no choice in the matter as I believe he was following the suggestions of our consultant, attorney's and Tom Jurich. Hopefully, at the end of the day, we'll all know this and will have learned from this sorid situation.
GO CARDS - BEAT EVERYBODY!!! God Bless America!!!
No one sitting on an ivory tower knows a damn thing about either situation with certainty. You only THINK you have the truth and answers.
And if you're smarting over not being in the tourney, that's on you, your program, and the people in charge. Has nothing to do with UNC. I hope UNC "skates" right past this crap without issue. Will just prove again how naive some of us are and how foolish you are to simply believe what you're told and trust others with your outcomes.
Rock it, Heels!!
Me thinks I smell a hypocrite. So you're saying you are alright with this if it was a Syracuse, FSU or BC because they are simply in the same conference and what if it was Memphis, Cincinnati or UCONN? Not alright because they're not our brothers?
Nothing hypocritical here...
I don't really care what happens somewhere else, but I want good fortune for U of L and ACC programs. If it happened to an AAC team, it wouldn't even be on my radar. I realize that some in our fanbase obsess over this stuff, but outside of the ACC, I couldn't care less.
If UNC gets past this without as much as a scrape, I'll be the guy applauding the loudest. (Maybe along with gocards!...
)
One other issue some of our fans have a hard time grasping...
You need to shake off most of the AAC, CUSA, Metro, etc. thinking that you're carrying around. You (U of L) are one of the big boys now. And you wanna support big boy agendas and outcomes.
If the NCAA handles a situation with UNC differently than it handles one with, say, Memphis, that's fine. Because you're a lot closer to the former than the latter as far as your (U of L's) athletic program. This isn't a right-and-wrong issue; it's the real world. And we all have to live in it.
Is that ethical or moral? Who cares? If that's hard for you to come to grips with, maybe you're going to have trouble being a fan of a big athletic program. If you're an administrator making public statements, you have to say the right stuff. But that's not necessarily how you think or behave.
Get rid of the "I'm little Louisville in the little state of Kentucky" mentality. That's not who you are anymore. You're trying to help lead one of, if not THE greatest conference(s) in college athletics. That's our role now...
You need to shake off most of the AAC, CUSA, Metro, etc. thinking that you're carrying around. You (U of L) are one of the big boys now. And you wanna support big boy agendas and outcomes.
If the NCAA handles a situation with UNC differently than it handles one with, say, Memphis, that's fine. Because you're a lot closer to the former than the latter as far as your (U of L's) athletic program. This isn't a right-and-wrong issue; it's the real world. And we all have to live in it.
Is that ethical or moral? Who cares? If that's hard for you to come to grips with, maybe you're going to have trouble being a fan of a big athletic program. If you're an administrator making public statements, you have to say the right stuff. But that's not necessarily how you think or behave.
Get rid of the "I'm little Louisville in the little state of Kentucky" mentality. That's not who you are anymore. You're trying to help lead one of, if not THE greatest conference(s) in college athletics. That's our role now...
Nobody thinks U of L is little and you can't change the fact that we are in the state of Kentucky. The only thing that changes that is if the state schools work together. Do you know why UNC Charlotte, UNC Wilmington, UNC Asheville despise UNC Chapel Hill? Because they put themselves on a pedestal and look down on the rest of the state schools. Attendance is not the issue and neither should what athletic conference you are in. They are academic institutions right? I understand chapel hill brings in more athletic money but if they look at themselves as being a higher institution, shouldn't they be held to a higher standard?
One of the reasons I became strictly a UL fan was because of the UK extra benefit scandal in the late 80s. At that time I was just starting college, and I rooted for UL first, but I also rooted for UK when they weren't playing UL because my father was a big UK fan. But the way UK fans treated the whole swarmy affair turned me off UK for good. They didn't care whether anything was done that was wrong - ethically wrong, criminally wrong, etc. They didn't care about the well-being of the players, except for their ability to suit up and perform for them like gladiators in the arena. And they certainly didn't care whether the college's reputation was tarnished, as very few of them attended and even less had degrees from UK. All they cared about was a basketball win at any cost. It was a sad and desperate mentality fueled by the fact that these fans (fanatics) obviously tied their own self-worth to being able to brag about how good "WE" were in college basketball.
To me, what Zipp is trying to sell smells like the same bs that turned me completely away from UK to begin with. Zipp's rambling rationalizations stink now as much as much as it did back then, except maybe those UK fans were a little more honest about the fact that they didn't care a whit about integrity - just winning at any cost.
To me, what Zipp is trying to sell smells like the same bs that turned me completely away from UK to begin with. Zipp's rambling rationalizations stink now as much as much as it did back then, except maybe those UK fans were a little more honest about the fact that they didn't care a whit about integrity - just winning at any cost.
ULarder,
You are exactly right. In NC, Chapel Hill is looked as being similar to UK with their arrogance while NC State is the equivalent to U of L. Chapel Hill regards the Wolfpack as "little brother," yet they reside in the same conference.
You are exactly right. In NC, Chapel Hill is looked as being similar to UK with their arrogance while NC State is the equivalent to U of L. Chapel Hill regards the Wolfpack as "little brother," yet they reside in the same conference.
There are no rationalizations. It's asking that you recognize who you are today, not 20 or 30 years ago. And you're not alone. There are U of L fans everyday who can't come to grips with who we are now. One by one, they fall off the wagon. Most are gray hairs who remember how it used to be. But for every one that falls off, two or three wanna get on. I hope that's not you, but if it is, we'll wave "bye" and thank you for helping get us where we are.
We don't do things now that we used to do. It happens very slowly and in small ways. But you're naive to think it's not happening. You're one of the "haves" in college athletics, and those who lead you want that. Jurich wants it both ways: he wants to be the biggest and baddest in college athletics, but he wants the little-guy mindset. I'm here to tell you that's not possible on a grand scale. (And Jurich knows that, he just says otherwise...) You have to stop playing and acting like a little guy for the most part if you wanna be big.
You're shoulder-to-shoulder with the Carolinas and Bamas of this world. You rule the land, and you vote with them to be them. At this point, that's not a choice for you and me. You don't like it, you stop being a U of L fan, or you water down your support...
Last edited:
And you ain't Charlotte, Wilmington, or Asheville. Like it or not, you're Chapel Hill. (Personally, I like it.) And you can't be Chapel Hill when you wanna be and Asheville when you don't. Best if you can be Chapel Hill without the baggage you think they have, but that ain't changing anything.
You vote with these guys because their collective well-being is your well-being. Again, I don't make the rules, I just understand them. And it doesn't matter one iota whether I like them...
As a Kentucky fan who holds far more hate for the schools in North Carolina than I do for any school inside our state's borders, I would be livid if I were a Louisville supporter. Your president punished you for something I would consider much less than what North Carolina just skated for.
You can say what you want about it being an accredited class and what not but what it comes down to is North Carolina had students who could hardly read and write at a 3rd grade level making A's in classes at (what used to be) one of the top public universities in the country. Andre just got a few people laid in the grad scheme of things.
I hope your athletic program doesn't accept any further punishment that may be handed out by the NCAA because how can they justify it?
You can say what you want about it being an accredited class and what not but what it comes down to is North Carolina had students who could hardly read and write at a 3rd grade level making A's in classes at (what used to be) one of the top public universities in the country. Andre just got a few people laid in the grad scheme of things.
I hope your athletic program doesn't accept any further punishment that may be handed out by the NCAA because how can they justify it?
Admittedly, I haven't kept up with the UNC thing much, except periphery reading message board material, which can be biased to say the least. But, where is the claim that "UNC had students who could hardly read and write at a 3rd grade level" coming from? Has that actual statement been made somewhere? Not busting your chops, just wondering if that is an actual claim or message board hyperbole to make a point? If true, that would be a pretty big indictment of the whole "push a sports star through the system" narrative (both for UNC and that student's entire pre-college school curriculum. TIA.
Steelers,
I think the 3rd grade level may be an overstatement but investigators have used the term "functionally literate." I am not sure what school level that equates to. When they described these terms they are usually referring to guys like Rashard McCants who was critically vocal but now has gone silent, Julius Peppers who had a 1.8 goal (although gpa is not indicative of your intelligence) and Michael mcadoo. Peppers had 11 courses with Ds and Fs but had all As and Bs in the AFAM classes.
I think the 3rd grade level may be an overstatement but investigators have used the term "functionally literate." I am not sure what school level that equates to. When they described these terms they are usually referring to guys like Rashard McCants who was critically vocal but now has gone silent, Julius Peppers who had a 1.8 goal (although gpa is not indicative of your intelligence) and Michael mcadoo. Peppers had 11 courses with Ds and Fs but had all As and Bs in the AFAM classes.
I can't provide a direct link right off as I am at work, but Im sure its in the 50+ page somewhere on RR, or NC State's forum pack pride. I have read emails from basketball assistants requesting students be put into the Afro American Studies classes to keep them eligible or because they were already on probation. These classes weren't a secret and if you can use McCants as a reliable source he says the whole coaching staff knew. Even Roy has been quoted as to saying he knows exactly what these players are doing in class.
Wish I had a AFAM program during my days at UK to bring up my GPA. I was on academic probation my first 2 semesters...and this was after legitimately being in the National Honor Society in high school. Let's just say it's hard to keep up with class, when you don't attend many of them...and that wasn't an "arrangement", it was because of far too many hangover days.
I'm not questioning whether the bogus classes occurred or whether it was arranged for athletes to take them. My only question was the alleged reading and writing level of some of the students involved in the curriculum. You hear about such cases, but it's hard for the average person (me anyways) to imagine those cases where a barely literate person graduates from high school, much less stays eligible in college. I've never personally been around one of those cases. Too drunk or too lazy to get up and go to class, yes. But not truly too ignorant to read or write, at least on a high school level. I believe it exists, just never been around it.
If you're in favor of selective policing so be it. But you are the fool my hypocritical friend. A man who couldn't sleep because all the BS in an arena report, sleeps fine at night with special favoritism given to popular teams in the very sport the arena was built for... You're a bigger fool than one could imagine....little brother.
