UK basketball lack of discipline

[carddead13]

I have brought up my thoughts on why UK basketball seems to have a lack of discipline to my UK friends. They look at me like have a horn in the middle of my head. I cannot remember a team having so many technicals in a year as this UK team. While the uk faithful dismiss as the world is out to get them- I see it a different way.

I think there are 3 reasons. First- when your coach acts like a slobbering fool, like he did at Siuth Carolina- who else are you going to emulate? Second- these kids are young and that is a direct byproduct of his recruiting philosophy. Seniors would just rebound the ball, take the foul, and win the game. Freshmen, well you saw what they do. Third- when you think you are only going to be at a school for a year, you can act a fool because there is no accountability. I think we will see this more and more as Cals career at UK continues. I personally think the school should be fined after a set number of technicals. UK now has at least 7 on the year. That is ridiculous.

 

[zipp]

It's also hard to get players to do what you want them to do when they get playing time regardless. Pitino Lite can't sit down most of the guys he has in the line-up.

How does an elite program find itself in this situation?

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Cats192]

It's also hard to get players to do what you want them to do when they get playing time regardless. Pitino Lite can't sit down most of the guys he has in the line-up.

How does an elite program find itself in this situation?

"Elite program", my a$$...

See Labissiere, Skal.

 

[zipp]

See Labissiere, Skal.

a) I said "most".

b) Even the walk-ons are playing better than Skal.

It is a risk not playing the kid, however, since it's a players-first program and he was guaranteed playing time.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[OneEarWonder]

a) I said "most".

b) Even the walk-ons are playing better than Skal.

It is a risk not playing the kid, however, since it's a players-first program and he was guaranteed playing time.

"Elite program", my a$$...

I agree that Skal certainly has not lived up to the hype. But out of curiosity, you have stated multiple times around playing time guarantees ... yet there is no indication that players are guaranteed playing time. Do you have any empirical evidence?

 

[OneEarWonder]

I have brought up my thoughts on why UK basketball seems to have a lack of discipline to my UK friends. They look at me like have a horn in the middle of my head. I cannot remember a team having so many technicals in a year as this UK team. While the uk faithful dismiss as the world is out to get them- I see it a different way.

I think there are 3 reasons. First- when your coach acts like a slobbering fool, like he did at Siuth Carolina- who else are you going to emulate? Second- these kids are young and that is a direct byproduct of his recruiting philosophy. Seniors would just rebound the ball, take the foul, and win the game. Freshmen, well you saw what they do. Third- when you think you are only going to be at a school for a year, you can act a fool because there is no accountability. I think we will see this more and more as Cals career at UK continues. I personally think the school should be fined after a set number of technicals. UK now has at least 7 on the year. That is ridiculous.

I think they are not disciplined, but in the sense of not playing good team ball... not out of control. I think most of it is being young. Cal has not done anything Rick hasn't done in the past... or any other top college coach. If it was Cal, you would see it year in and year out.

I think it is more the kids are not disciplined in their game plans and are still playing "playground" ball instead of team ball. As far as techs, I am curious how they compare to other teams and years past, unfortunately I could not find the NCAA data on that. If you have it, I would be curious.

 

[JohnKBA]

I agree that Skal certainly has not lived up to the hype. But out of curiosity, you have stated multiple times around playing time guarantees ... yet there is no indication that players are guaranteed playing time. Do you have any empirical evidence?

No, he doesn't. I still love ya zipp but that is pure speculation.

 

[kozmas]

I remember when Cal was at Memphis his language from the bench during the game was so vulgar and loud that they had to tell him too clean it up for the fans.

 

[OneEarWonder]

Dude, no need for insults, especially on someone's home board.

 

[Cats192]

a) I said "most".

b) Even the walk-ons are playing better than Skal.

It is a risk not playing the kid, however, since it's a players-first program and he was guaranteed playing time.

"Elite program", my a$$...

One would think that Cal sitting the top recruit of the class implies that he will sit others.

That said, the walk ons ARE playing better than Skal

 

[Wall2Boogie]

I remember when Cal was at Memphis his language from the bench during the game was so vulgar and loud that they had to tell him too clean it up for the fans.

Come on man no disrespect to you or anyone else, but you're are kidding yourself if you don't think 96% of coaches use vulgar language when coaching I can guarantee you crp does the same thing when he's mad at his players. This isn't byu or Utah where if your not a virgin you can't play on the team, which I'm sure involves using profanity period.

 

[zipp]

...out of curiosity, you have stated multiple times around playing time guarantees ... yet there is no indication that players are guaranteed playing time. Do you have any empirical evidence?

One word...

PLATOON.

That's of course when he has enough or too many players.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

One would think that Cal sitting the top recruit of the class implies that he will sit others...

You're really at the wrong end of the spectrum to understand the point...

Ulis or Murray would have to commit murder to not be in the starting line-up and get 38 minutes per game. Doesn't matter if either of those guys refuses to play defense or has attitude problems.

And it's only slightly less true for Briscoe or Lee, as other examples. Those kids have to play.

Skal's not playing because he's not good enough. Most LPT kids play because they're good enough to get SOME amount of PT and regardless of anything else. There's a difference between those two situations.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[valley St. Card]

Not to mention Calimari would have definitely won the championship that year if he left the twins on the bench and play Ullis. Don't remember his exact words. But I do remember him saying I owed it to the twins.

 

[OneEarWonder]

You're really at the wrong end of the spectrum to understand the point...

Ulis or Murray would have to commit murder to not be in the starting line-up and get 38 minutes per game. Doesn't matter if either of those guys refuses to play defense or has attitude problems.

And it's only slightly less true for Briscoe or Lee, as other examples. Those kids have to play.

Skal's not playing because he's not good enough. Most LPT kids play because they're good enough to get SOME amount of PT and regardless of anything else. There's a difference between those two situations.

"Elite program", my a$$...

Dude, I totally agree... But this completely contradicts your whole "guaranteed playing time" mantra. If there were guarantees, which there are not, it wouldn't matter how good or bad someone was playing or how good they were. If they were promised a minimum or set time, they'd get. Clearly they are not.

Same thing with the Platoon system last year. That was due to a plethora of talented players and an attempt to maximize the rotation... Spreading the love... Still no guarantee.

I know you enjoy ribbing UK and Cal, but you have nothing here man (in regards to guarantees).

If you have ANY empirical evidence I'd love to see it, otherwise, it's just an unfounded and speculative opinion. The things you tend to deride around here.

 

[rockycard]

One would think that Cal sitting the top recruit of the class implies that he will sit others.

That said, the walk ons ARE playing better than Skal

Or one could think that Calipari didn't have to promise him anything, I don't think that many schools were after "the top recruit ".

 

[nccardfan]

Skals not playing because the guy we all said was a washout, Willis has been making the most of his opportunity, well until he got hurt. Some guys it takes longer to develop and all they need is a chance. Unfortunately at UK with all the one and dones, that opportunity is limited. Willis probably could have been a major contributor someplace else like wiltjer.

 

[JohnKBA]

Skals not playing because the guy we all said was a washout, Willis has been making the most of his opportunity, well until he got hurt. Some guys it takes longer to develop and all they need is a chance. Unfortunately at UK with all the one and dones, that opportunity is limited. Willis probably could have been a major contributor someplace else like wiltjer.

I'd bet when Wiltjer looks back on his college career, he'll be pretty happy he spent two years at UK and got a ring as a minor contributor during his freshman year. I'm sure it's cool being "the man" at Gonzaga, but I couldn't begin to tell you their tourney results the last few years, because they have done nothing of note in March.

 

[Cats192]

You're really at the wrong end of the spectrum to understand the point...

Ulis or Murray would have to commit murder to not be in the starting line-up and get 38 minutes per game. Doesn't matter if either of those guys refuses to play defense or has attitude problems.

And it's only slightly less true for Briscoe or Lee, as other examples. Those kids have to play.

Skal's not playing because he's not good enough. Most LPT kids play because they're good enough to get SOME amount of PT and regardless of anything else. There's a difference between those two situations.

"Elite program", my a$$...

But what have we seen from Ulis or Murray that indicates an attitude problem? I don't think Murray is great on D, but he's not James Harden. He's not refusing to try.

If your only point is that we're strapped for bodies, and that puts Cal in a tough spot--sure. But, this "LOL CAL WON'T DISCIPLINE NOBODY!!11ONE" is unfounded.

 

[Senore2006]

I wager nothing was more of a relief for Wiltjer than getting the hell out of Lexington. Gee - returning home to become an All American and raise local hopes is such a drag.

 

[zipp]

Not to mention Calimari would have definitely won the championship that year if he left the twins on the bench and play Ullis. Don't remember his exact words. But I do remember him saying I owed it to the twins.

That was going to be my next example, and widely acknowledged by LPT fans. Most believe that he felt an obligation to play the Twins.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[OneEarWonder]

That was going to be my next example, and widely acknowledged by LPT fans. Most believe that he felt an obligation to play the Twins.

"Elite program", my a$$...

Yep, even he acknowledged it. It was due to loyalty, nothing else. Poor decision to go with history/experience over the hot hand. Still no playing time guarantees. Never have been, never will be.

 

[zipp]

Dude, I totally agree... But this completely contradicts your whole "guaranteed playing time" mantra. If there were guarantees, which there are not, it wouldn't matter how good or bad someone was playing or how good they were. If they were promised a minimum or set time, they'd get. Clearly they are not.

Same thing with the Platoon system last year. That was due to a plethora of talented players and an attempt to maximize the rotation... Spreading the love... Still no guarantee.

I know you enjoy ribbing UK and Cal, but you have nothing here man (in regards to guarantees).

If you have ANY empirical evidence I'd love to see it, otherwise, it's just an unfounded and speculative opinion. The things you tend to deride around here.

Nothing applies 100% of the time, and there are always shades of gray. You're requiring some kind of absolute criterion.

When you get 5-star kids who are less than advertised, the decision becomes does that guarantee overrule (Twins) or does the guy suck out loud (Skal)? The first issue should never be a consideration with most programs.

The platoon got a kid minutes (Lee) at the expense of kids who were far better (Towns). Did Towns get more minutes than Lee?...Sure. But with the number of players LPT had in 2015 and the disparity in talent between kids like Towns and Lee, the latter should have been buried on the bench. His play this year proves that. Instead, he was a full fledged platoon member.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

...Still no playing time guarantees. Never have been, never will be.

You're asking for a signed contract. Never has been, never will be.

BTW and for the record, you just agreed with an example of something you said "never" existed.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

I'd bet when Wiltjer looks back on his college career, he'll be pretty happy he spent two years at UK and got a ring as a minor contributor during his freshman year. I'm sure it's cool being "the man" at Gonzaga, but I couldn't begin to tell you their tourney results the last few years, because they have done nothing of note in March.

I still love ya, John... But find me some other examples of 5-star kids who were "happy" to ride the pine for a couple years out of high school. Maybe one exists, but his name is "Wiltjer" if so.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

...If your only point is that we're strapped for bodies, and that puts Cal in a tough spot--sure. But, this "LOL CAL WON'T DISCIPLINE NOBODY!!11ONE" is unfounded.

An easy point for LPT fans is to show the rest of us an example or two of Pitino Lite sitting down a star player for anything other than his health. He's had seven years of opportunities. The more you can find, the more you can convince us.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[OneEarWonder]

You're asking for a signed contract. Never has been, never will be.

BTW and for the record, you just agreed with an example of something you said "never" existed.

"Elite program", my a$$...

I'm not asking for anything other than some form of empirical evidence, for which you have none. You may made the claim of guarantees repeatedly... but nothing to back it up. All you have provided is contradictions to your own points. There are no guarantees. Players have to earn their time, just like in any program.

 

[zipp]

The Twins, Lee, Poythress... How many examples do you want??

 

[nccardfan]

Yeah John,

I beg to differ. I bet he has really enjoyed getting to play as opposed to keeping someone else's seat warm. Ask any athlete if they rather play or watch...

 

[Big Smythe]

I actually think Zipp just makes it up as he goes. All you ever do is spout off at the mouth with ridiculous claims as if it's the gospel. To name Poythress and Lee as examples just shows your ignorance of UK basketball. The thing is you've consistently done this for so long that you actually believe it.

Remember where you are idiot you are on a card board and you are a guest

 

[JohnKBA]

Yeah John,

I beg to differ. I bet he has really enjoyed getting to play as opposed to keeping someone else's seat warm. Ask any athlete if they rather play or watch...

I don't know Wiltjer personally, so you could be right. But as a freshman (a very physically weak, slow footed, non defending freshman) he played in all 40 games, averaged almost 12 MPG as the 2nd guy off the bench, and won a national title. I'm pretty confident he thoroughly enjoyed that season.

In his second year, as a very physically weak, slow footed, non defending sophomore, he was our 4th leading scorer. Of course that team imploded, then he saw the writing on the wall with the new class coming in, and decided that playing in a P5 conference wasn't for him, and it was probably the right call. Cue the "SEC is a mid major" jokes now, but for all it's lack of winning outside of Florida and UK lately, they still bring in plenty of big, athletic kids, which is exactly what Wiltjer couldn't deal with.

Good convo though. I still haven't heard a single kid complain about his "playing time guarantee" not being honored.When Wiltjer transferred, he didn't say "man, coach guaranteed me clock and I don't see myself getting it next year with all these guys coming in." Many have said in interviews that Calipari has told them to expect to work hard and earn their PT when they come to UK. I suppose they could all be being paid to say that, but I'll hold out hope that we have good kids here for the most part who want to work hard and be winners.

 

[nccardfan]

P5 conference? We're not talking about football. Did you know gonzaga has been to the dance 17 straight years and has been ranked as a #7, #1, #8 and #2. They are not a step down as you like to imply. Mark Few is 459-110 in 17 years. Before calimari got to UK, he was 445-140 with 2 vacated titles. Ever wonder what a guy like Few would do for big blew?

 

[JohnKBA]

P5 conference? We're not talking about football. Did you know gonzaga has been to the dance 17 straight years and has been ranked as a #7, #1, #8 and #2. They are not a step down as you like to imply. Mark Few is 459-110 in 17 years. Before calimari got to UK, he was 445-140 with 2 vacated titles. Ever wonder what a guy like Few would do for big blew?

I admitted in my post that SEC overall results are not up to snuff - but please check with regard to recruiting, producing pros, etc how the WCC stacks up. Hint - it doesn't. They attract 2nd tier talent and produce 2nd tier tourney results. Wiltjer has been able to perform well vs that 2nd tier talent. Few has never been to a Final Four for a reason - their conference doesn't stack up athletically with any of the P5 conferences.

And you are taking my point totally out of context. Wiltjer doesn't have to play against Gonzaga, the only team of any worth at all in that conference. He gets to feast on powerhouses like Pepperdine, Pacific, Loyola Marymount, and Santa Clara. Name the last 10 great WCC players. You'll get to Steve Nash, Bo Kimble and Hank Gathers before you get to 5.

 

[Senore2006]

UK wet dreams. It what you get when you have a liberal banning policy. Nothing like reading the UK version of things, lol. Literally.

 

[nccardfan]

Again as you fail to understand what zipp has tried to communicate is player development. Calipari didn't produce a pro. He just gave them a place to play, otherwise Wiltjer would be a pro. These guys were expected to be pros when they came in. In wiltjer's own words, he cited his own athletic ambition over being a so called celebrity in the big blue Nation. The primary factor was the decision to transform his body, which implies UK was going to do nothing or spend time to improve him to get to where he thought he could be. It didn't hurt Olynyk to go to gonzaga to get to the NBA.

 

[catdance]

Again as you fail to understand what zipp has tried to communicate is player development. Calipari didn't produce a pro. He just gave them a place to play, otherwise Wiltjer would be a pro. These guys were expected to be pros when they came in. In wiltjer's own words, he cited his own athletic ambition over being a so called celebrity in the big blue Nation. The primary factor was the decision to transform his body, which implies UK was going to do nothing or spend time to improve him to get to where he thought he could be. It didn't hurt Olynyk to go to gonzaga to get to the NBA.

Cal's policy has always been, that if you can't defend you can't play. Wiltjer cannot defend.

 

[Stonewall12]

I remember when Cal was at Memphis his language from the bench during the game was so vulgar and loud that they had to tell him too clean it up for the fans.

False.

 

[JohnKBA]

Again as you fail to understand what zipp has tried to communicate is player development. Calipari didn't produce a pro. He just gave them a place to play, otherwise Wiltjer would be a pro. These guys were expected to be pros when they came in. In wiltjer's own words, he cited his own athletic ambition over being a so called celebrity in the big blue Nation. The primary factor was the decision to transform his body, which implies UK was going to do nothing or spend time to improve him to get to where he thought he could be. It didn't hurt Olynyk to go to gonzaga to get to the NBA.

Ah, the infamous "player development," where the coach is solely responsible for how much self motivation the player has. Look, if a player has the athletic talent to be great and wants to put the work in, they become great. You think MJ is the greatest of all time because Dean Smith made him that way? He outworked everyone. You wanna be a great basketball player, you work at it. You wanna be a doctor, you work 18 hour days in residency for a few years. The UK guys that have come through and have become great - Davis, Wall, Cousins, Towns is on his way there...are great because they want to be, not because Calipari or any other coach gave them magical powers.

 

[Lefty_O'Brian]

If you watched towns play in HS (or at the beginning of the season), the 'cal can't develop talent' argument wouldn't hold much water. He shot from wherever he wanted against smaller competition, including a lot of threes, to dominate games. Cal helped develop his inside game to help him get drafted over the consensus #1 pick Okafor by the end of the season.

 

[roguemocha]

I still love ya, John... But find me some other examples of 5-star kids who were "happy" to ride the pine for a couple years out of high school. Maybe one exists, but his name is "Wiltjer" if so.

"Elite program", my a$$...

I'd bet Newman or Simmons at this point would rather trade some PT playing at UK than their current locations where they will be in the NIT.