The MYTH that UK is "closer" to U of L after last year's game
- Thread starter Pervis_Griffith
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False once again Billy. The state of Kentucky produces and has produced its fair share of talent the last decade. The problem is 9 out of 10 of those in state guys end up going to uk only to see their careers go up in smoke.
I will back up my statement with pure facts by listing top talent that never reached their potential due to going to uk.
Curtis Pulley, Micah Johnson to name a few because I dont feel like looking the rest up.
The state of KY doesn't produce enough talent annually compared to other sec states, or nationally for that matter.
You have to recruit other states heavily. Nothing about that is false.
You have to recruit other states heavily. Nothing about that is false.
But the state of Kentucky especially small counties outside of Jefferson produce 2-5 four or five stars kids every year and they all end up at uk a majority of the time. You factor those kids in with the so called elite players Stoops pluck from Ohio then uk should be able to compete instead of maintaining bottom feeder status in the sec.
They don't get that many kids from Ky. I just looked UK has 13 kids from Ky. I just glanced at auburn they 25 from Alabama, Alabama has 33 from Alabama, Arkansas had 34 from Arkansas and Georgia had over 40 and I quit counting from Georgia. Those were the only ones I looked at.
Ky schools just don't produce that much d1 talent annually.
Ky schools just don't produce that much d1 talent annually.
Stoops has only had 3 classes, it takes time for kids to become solid players. Most don't make an impact until 2-3 years into a program. Very few come in as freshman or redshirt freshmen and make an impact.
Well all we been hearing since stoops came is how he and his staff are top notch recruiters you shouldn't have a problem recruiting talent hotbeds since there's no talent in Kentucky. I mean I'm the uk staff is capable, you guys are sec right???
You may want to look this up cause you are wrong, Ky doesn't produce that much talent outside Jefferson co. that's one of the reasons Petrino takes chances with some of the 4 and 5 star kids who step on their crank from other programs.
That is not meant to be a jab at your coach or program either just saying if there were more talent throughout the state I doubt he would be as willing to take chances, that being said he does a good job keeping them in line once they are at UL
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They were the only 5 star recruits in their respective classes and that depended on the rating service, Elam was a 3 star in a couple. Haven't checked in a while but last time I did there were no 5 star kids in the 2016 class and only one in 2017
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You uk guys are full of it. If jokers recruits were so bad and stoops classes have been so good then why would they have to wait 2-4 years to see the field???
All we've been hearing from delusional uk fans like yourself is all of these high four and low five star guys are program changers and all of the retained joker guys are nothing more than mid major/low D1 recruits. I'm confused as to why these top notch recruits are seeing the field from the day they step on campus. I don't wanna hear nothing about developing these guys for the 2016-17 season because its all nonsense. Teddy,Devante and Quick saw significant playing time as true freshmen and those Louisville teams were worlds better than any team stoops had since arriving. So keep spinning and using excuses, its great entertainment.
The team at the top of that list--Auburn--with the most attrition in the SEC won the national championship two years later (2010). IOW, the point in time where Stupes is today. Is that the impact you were trying to show?
What I'm harping on is that LPT didn't have an extraordinary level of attrition during or immediately after Joker was canned. Anymore than U of L did during Petrino's tenure. AND there was no effect on performance attributable to attrition in either case. Just poor coaching in the aftermath.
Unless you're complaining because you didn't win a national championship.
LPT Football: Usually getting ish backwards...
Whatever man, if you believe it doesn't take time for most recruits to develop then so be it. You can believe whatever you like.
It has nothing to do with taking time for recruits to develope. Its more so about stoops guys being so good and jokers guys barely being P5 worthy. Discount it all you want but that is the narrative coming from the uk fanbase.
Jokers was coach for 3 years, his teams progressively got worse. Are you trying to debate that? What seems to be the issue?
I do believe Stoops recruits will be better as evidenced by higher class rankings.
And it does take time for linemen to develop which is where big time college football is won and lost.
I do believe Stoops recruits will be better as evidenced by higher class rankings.
And it does take time for linemen to develop which is where big time college football is won and lost.
And if stoops recruits are so good then they should've been seeing the field from day one. How hard is the concept to grasp Billy???
Some did, but most teams try to redshirt players, especially linemen.
A true freshman no matter how talented is rarely going to be better than a junior or senior. It does happen, but it's usually a skills guy and it usually happens on a team that has good line play, UK did not.
Mizzou has 17 players from Missouri, very similar to UK.
Lsu had over 40 from Louisiana, South Carolina had 34 from South Carolina.
Lsu had over 40 from Louisiana, South Carolina had 34 from South Carolina.
Well once again if jokers leftovers were so bad then there shouldn't have been any reason for stoops four and five star guys not seeing the field as true freshmen and sophmores. Wasn't immediate playing time the way stoops was selling the program??
Several of them did see playing time as true freshmen. But that's not the advantageous way to build a solid team. Sure the elite players can produce as true freshmen, but most just don't have a grasp of the game plan or the speed of the game.
Lineman on both sides need to redshirt, and even then there's a huge difference between juniors and seniors. That's why at least in my case I'm upbeat about this season. The line will have players that have redshirted and have a good grasp on the game plan. Have had time to mature and get stronger.
I'm not expecting UK to be world beaters, but I expect the line play to be better.
Lineman on both sides need to redshirt, and even then there's a huge difference between juniors and seniors. That's why at least in my case I'm upbeat about this season. The line will have players that have redshirted and have a good grasp on the game plan. Have had time to mature and get stronger.
I'm not expecting UK to be world beaters, but I expect the line play to be better.
LOL, are you serious with this? Two to five 4 star or higher rated players per year, mostly from outside Jefferson County??? I mean, while we're cleaning up aisle 4...
WTH does that answer have to do with Lockdown's point?
LPT Football: Too many good players...
Lockdown is wrong just as I was on year 3 of Pinkells tenure at Mizzou. It's fairly obvious what Johnny was stating Zipp.
Towles Barker Elam Harris Kash
They have threads going on about beating Florida, Tennessee,Mizzou and winning ten games this season. Uk fans are so out of touch with reality that I almost feel sorry for them.
No you're football program is wrong for leading delusional fans like yourself to believe you are actu
Exactly zipp..went over their heads and Im so tired of explaining this to them over and over again. The way they talk about all this talent you would believe there would be some proven production on the field but instead its all based off internet rankings and what not.
They have threads going on about beating Florida, Tennessee,Mizzou and winning ten games this season. Uk fans are so out of touch with reality that I almost feel sorry for them.
That is 5 players in 4 years. That's not what you stated lockdown. You were wrong, it's ok it happens.
Stop deflecting, no UK fan in this thread stated we were going to beat any of those teams. And yes we are excited about the influx of talent, but the line is what separates teams, and I believe UKs lines will start to show the fruits of red shirts and age this year.
Stop deflecting, no UK fan in this thread stated we were going to beat any of those teams. And yes we are excited about the influx of talent, but the line is what separates teams, and I believe UKs lines will start to show the fruits of red shirts and age this year.
I posted this below in another thread. It's a list of blue chip Kentucky kids according to Rivals who have gone to LPT over the last dozen or so years. There are 15 kids on this list...
This list obviously doesn't include most of the Jefferson County kids who usually go to U of L. It also doesn't include the kids who go out of state.
Is that 2-5 kids per year? Five may be on the high side, but there are definitely multiple kids every year on average.
Is that the distinction LPT fans are arguing about? Do you guys just wanna argue??
LPT Football: We seldom look in the mirror...
This list obviously doesn't include most of the Jefferson County kids who usually go to U of L. It also doesn't include the kids who go out of state.
Is that 2-5 kids per year? Five may be on the high side, but there are definitely multiple kids every year on average.
Is that the distinction LPT fans are arguing about? Do you guys just wanna argue??
LPT Football: We seldom look in the mirror...
https://rivals.yahoo.com/kentuckypreps/football/recruiting/rankings/rank-3437/0
I don't have an ax to grind here zipp, would really like to see both programs do well and for the state as a whole to take football more serious. I'm not saying there hasn't been talent wasted at UK or that Stoops is any better than what UK has had in the past, that jury is still out to me. However years where UK has one much less two five star recruits is an anomaly and that includes Jefferson Co. Sometimes raters get it wrong, obviously Parker should have been a 5* but Bridgewater should have also. However where they that good when first stepping on UL's field or developed after receiving better coaching?
Click on the High Schools tab above and take a look at Kentucky's high school talent compared to say Ohio, Tennessee, Alabama, Florida, etc. UL has been successful despite in state recruiting not because of it and I applaud you all for that. That being said most kids state wide will simply quit sports all together if faced with having to play football instead of basketball, it's just a different mind set with kids and parents throughout the state it just is. I've spent large portions of my life growing up in Alabama and seen more basketball's used as tomato baskets than I ever seen actually put to use.
I don't have an ax to grind here zipp, would really like to see both programs do well and for the state as a whole to take football more serious. I'm not saying there hasn't been talent wasted at UK or that Stoops is any better than what UK has had in the past, that jury is still out to me. However years where UK has one much less two five star recruits is an anomaly and that includes Jefferson Co. Sometimes raters get it wrong, obviously Parker should have been a 5* but Bridgewater should have also. However where they that good when first stepping on UL's field or developed after receiving better coaching?
Click on the High Schools tab above and take a look at Kentucky's high school talent compared to say Ohio, Tennessee, Alabama, Florida, etc. UL has been successful despite in state recruiting not because of it and I applaud you all for that. That being said most kids state wide will simply quit sports all together if faced with having to play football instead of basketball, it's just a different mind set with kids and parents throughout the state it just is. I've spent large portions of my life growing up in Alabama and seen more basketball's used as tomato baskets than I ever seen actually put to use.
The point is that you can't build a program with Kentucky talent or for that matter the nucleus of a team with it. That's what lockdown seemed to be implying.
Other teams in the Sec have that luxury, they lockdown the home states numerous top players and then round out the class from there, UK and Louisville can't rely on that year in and year out.
I went back and read the last couple pages of posts... That's not what Lockdown was saying at all. You're distorting it. He's saying that you're getting most of the highly rated kids out in the state, and they ain't measuring up consistently. I agree with that 100%.
And he's saying that even if you're failing in that regard, that Kentucky kids are overrated, or whatever, Stupes is supposed to be so great at cleaning up in Ohio, for example, that you should be clicking along anyway.
Lockdown's also dismissing the "Joker's recruiting sucked" revisionist LPT history garbage that I always beat the drum about. He's 100% right about that too.
Maybe you should try harder to understand what he's saying.
LPT Football: It ain't easy with our hands covering our ears...
That's not what he said Zipp. He said KY produces enough instate talent to keep UK out of the gutter, that's not even close. I believe he said UK gets to 2-5 4 stars or better a year from the state, which also wasn't true.
Then he tried to ensue that all these high calibe recruits should be able to make an immediate impact, and several have but red shirting players is the better way to get development out of players, especially linemen. Any coach in the country will tell you they'd rather have a redshirt junior or senior over a true freshman or sophomore.
The recruiting under joker was bad as well the development and discipline of the team. To say otherwise is ridiculous Zipp. He got fired for a reason, the wheels of what Brooks had started obviously fell off under Joker and Stoops is righting the ship. You're a smart man I'm sure, but sometimes you seem to try reach a conclusion and the. When you do you refuse to budge that you might be wrong.
Then he tried to ensue that all these high calibe recruits should be able to make an immediate impact, and several have but red shirting players is the better way to get development out of players, especially linemen. Any coach in the country will tell you they'd rather have a redshirt junior or senior over a true freshman or sophomore.
The recruiting under joker was bad as well the development and discipline of the team. To say otherwise is ridiculous Zipp. He got fired for a reason, the wheels of what Brooks had started obviously fell off under Joker and Stoops is righting the ship. You're a smart man I'm sure, but sometimes you seem to try reach a conclusion and the. When you do you refuse to budge that you might be wrong.
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I realize you're under doctor's care, but you're misquoting him. What he said (my emphasis added) was ...
"...the state of Kentucky especially small counties outside of Jefferson produce 2-5 four or five stars kids every year and they all end up at uk a majority of the time..."
I just reiterated the list above of the kids who ended up at LPT. That was more than one kid per year, and didn't include the blue-chip Kentucky kids who went to U of L and elsewhere. And most of the blue-chip rated kids from Kentucky do go to LPT and waste away. It's mostly the kids from out in the State. Lockdown was correct in all of that.
I'm not sure what the relevance of this debate is. In my opinion, freshmen who are good enough play and don't redshirt. Telling me that most of LPT's freshmen aren't playing tells me more about their ability to contribute than an LPT redshirting strategy. For damn sure, Stupes has plenty of motivation to play guys who can help him win games. You think he would have lost a redshirt or two to get a 6th win down the stretch last year? You're a fool if you don't.
What Lockdown and I refuse to do is buy into LPT revisionist history. Joker was a fine recruiter until he was rejected by the fans and the administration, and then he wasn't. Them's the facts. You can believe or feel whatever you want. U of L fans have been watching the LPT football trainwreck for a long time and know better than to buy into hype and hope.
LPT Football: We don't have much else...
512 posts! Enough already! Neither side will change their position, hope or belief. The GAME will determine who is correct for 2015.
Zipp, key doesn't produce that much high talent every year. How far back does that list go? And that sure isn't enough to maintain anything in the Sec.
It's a ridiculous argument.
The fans lost faith in Joker because he was an awful head coach. They didn't lose faith and then his coaching suffered. What's you're point? That if only the fans had stuck with him he'd have started winning? Well hell we could say the same about Kragthorpe. Only he hadn't been with Petrinos coaching staff, nor had the luxury of being familiar with the staff. Joker was an awful head coach, are we really even debating that? And yes Stoops has done better recruiting in 3 classes than Joker was producing.
If you don't want to buy into fine, I really don't care. But don't try to tell me Joker Phillips was succeeding but the fans bailed on him, that's ridiculous. Nor tell me that the state of Ky produces enough talent to compete in the sec, it never has and never will.
I'm off painkillers now, I could've been taking them when I started posting here lol
It's a ridiculous argument.
The fans lost faith in Joker because he was an awful head coach. They didn't lose faith and then his coaching suffered. What's you're point? That if only the fans had stuck with him he'd have started winning? Well hell we could say the same about Kragthorpe. Only he hadn't been with Petrinos coaching staff, nor had the luxury of being familiar with the staff. Joker was an awful head coach, are we really even debating that? And yes Stoops has done better recruiting in 3 classes than Joker was producing.
If you don't want to buy into fine, I really don't care. But don't try to tell me Joker Phillips was succeeding but the fans bailed on him, that's ridiculous. Nor tell me that the state of Ky produces enough talent to compete in the sec, it never has and never will.
I'm off painkillers now, I could've been taking them when I started posting here lol
The list goes back to the beginning of the online Rivals database, I think it was 2002. And I don't read anyone saying that LPT can survive strictly on its Kentucky recruits. Where are you reading that??
The point is that LPT fans changed their story re. Joker's recruiting. When you liked him and when he worked under Pappaw as recruiting coordinator, you liked his recruiting. When you started hating him as a coach, you hated his recruiting. It's a convenient revisionist story.
Slightly. But from what I've seen of Stupes' coaching, far too little difference to matter.
You sure are trying for someone who doesn't care! Until LPT bailed on him in Year 2, Joker was doing about as well as the guys before and after him. And no one ever said the State produces enough talent for LPT to succeed with it on its own. Not the way LPT utilizes talent for sure.
LPT Football: Coaching in short supply...
Well he wasn't being paid to be the recruiting coordinator after he took over as head coach. The whole program was his responsibility. And it declined immediately when he took over. That's why he lost the fans.
And lockdown was implying that UK gets enough high end talent from the state to get out of the gutter. That's just not feasible when looking at the majority of schools in the Sec. Especially when a lot of the best instate talent leaves the state.
And lockdown was implying that UK gets enough high end talent from the state to get out of the gutter. That's just not feasible when looking at the majority of schools in the Sec. Especially when a lot of the best instate talent leaves the state.
Again, quote Lockdown rather than reading perhaps falsely between the lines.
No, you continue to be wrong about Joker. He went 6-6 in his first year, the same record as Pappaw's next-to-last year and one game worse that Pappaw's last. It was Joker's SUPPORT that declined immediately, probably because there were too lofty expectations for the coach-in-waiting.
And your perspective on his recruiting declined as well. Something known as "the halo effect".
LPT Football: Its own unique psychology...
FYI, up-to-the-minute LPT recruiting numbers...
LPT Football: We make this stuff up as we go along...
- 2016 class so far, average star rating = 3.00
- Joker's 2011 class, average star rating = 2.96
LPT Football: We make this stuff up as we go along...
Zipp, it's July there's a long way to go until signing day my man.
Stoops has had 3 classes at UK and yes they are better than Jokers, I don't care what numbers you run, there are better athletes across the board now.
Jokers teams declined every year Zipp. They looked poorly coached, no discipline, and Joker didn't appear to care.
As for what Lockdown posted, he was implying UK gets enough talent year in and year out from the state to rise out of the cellar. They don't and you know it too, KY just doesn't produce many top notch football players.
UK has 13 players from the state on it, most SEC schools will have that many from their home state in one class. Except for mizzou, which was another parallel between the two schools I was showing. Let's move on from this, people don't want to read this stuff anymore, we can just agree to disagree.
