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Still glad to get those LPT and IU wins instead of...

Reality check Zipp - Louisville is going to need to hold an outstanding roster to win the ACC. This league was never going to be won by this team. The team needs multiple ready for next level players to win the ACC, and this team has just one.

You deserve some grief here for being a dreamer.

The program is built for March - not January through March.
 
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Plenty of ACC teams are 1 or 2 seeds without winning the regular season title. Worrying about regular season titles is small fish thinking.
Sure there are other paths. But winning the ACC is the most obvious way for this or any ACC team to get a 1/2-seed. That will be proven when the ACC season is over and you see the seed that its champion receives...
 
Reality check Zipp - Louisville is going to need to hold an outstanding roster to win the ACC. This league was never going to be won by this team. The team needs multiple ready for next level players to win the ACC, and this team has just one.

You deserve some grief here for being a dreamer...
Here's the hypothetical standings with two more ACC wins for us (UVA and ND):

Louisville 10-2
UNC 9-3
FSU 9-4
Duke 8-4
UVA 7-4
Cuse 8-5
ND 7-6
Miami 6-6
Ga Tech 6-6
Wake 6-7
Va Tech 5-6


"Never" is a lot closer than you think. And it ain't dreaming when hard data are involved...
 
And based on yesterday's NCAA pre-selection results, many of you guys chose a win against the 12th seeded (and falling) team--LPT--over a win against the 10th seeded team, Virginia. Compounded by choosing a win against RPI #79 IU instead of a win over #26 ND. Sucks being wrong twice and perhaps sacrificing an ACC championship as well...

 
The UVA game was so important to the team that two players broke curfew and got themselves suspended. Wow, that game really must have meant the world to them.
 
Classic zipp fallacies on full display-

either/or - falsely presenting two choices as mutually exclusive with no other alternatives

straw man - distorting the premise of an opposing argument to make it easier to refute

ad hominem - launching attacks against others because you have no argument

red herring- introducing an irrelevant topic as support of your original premise
 
Come on now! Embrace Zipp with open arms. He's full steam Louisville ... pure and true. That's really all that matters. You will never win an argument with an old, retired man (i've spent many a Thanksgiving day weekend trying). And gosh darn it, I hope to be one of those old retired guys watching my Louisville teams scrape and claw for Championships. And by the way ... we have a shot at making a good run to the Final Four this year. Then, we get to watch Lamar Jackson and team this Fall.

Even Zipp can get behind this bandwagon
 
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The UVA game was so important to the team that two players broke curfew and got themselves suspended. Wow, that game really must have meant the world to them.
Careful about correlation vs. causation...
 
Classic zipp fallacies on full display-...
I can't take full credit, but I'll be glad to undertake the debate...
...either/or - falsely presenting two choices as mutually exclusive with no other alternatives...
I think it was Howie who originally raised this "either/or" issue when the games were played. You can probably take it up with him.
...straw man - distorting the premise of an opposing argument to make it easier to refute

....red herring- introducing an irrelevant topic as support of your original premise
That's in YOUR mind... This was and continues to be a highly relevant issue as it illuminates the issue of how the games on our schedule--and not just in men's basketball--are prioritized and with respect to departmental goals. Even gets at how the athletic department is managed. That's fundamental stuff, but you can think of it as something else if you don't wanna debate it. Your reality, not mine.
...ad hominem - launching attacks against others because you have no argument...
The same chump who, without provocation, referred to me as "professor" a couple days ago?...
 
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Just thought since you were not using any facts and utilizing flimsy logic in your arguments on this topic that you'd appreciate an equally dubious claim.
What's not factual about pointing out where teams are ranked and which ones we beat and lost to?...
 
Don't look now but a recent ESPN poll conducted that asked "what is the best college rivalry in basketball" and with over 34,000 votes and 50%, the leader is UK vs U of L. Duke and NC were 2nd with 21%. This came from a poster named Troy Turbeville.
 
Here's the hypothetical standings with two more ACC wins for us (UVA and ND):

.

The two more wins didn't happen.

Any argument based on hypothetical outcomes as opposed to the real outcomes is fantasy land stuff.

I will not join you in fantasy land Zipp!
 
Don't look now but a recent ESPN poll conducted that asked "what is the best college rivalry in basketball" and with over 34,000 votes and 50%, the leader is UK vs U of L. Duke and NC were 2nd with 21%. This came from a poster named Troy Turbeville.
Well, at least that's presumably good data...

The problem I have with any fixation on regular season college basketball--even the Carolina-Duke games--is that most of the country thinks it's irrelevant. It's like suggesting that the U of L-LPT baseball games don't get enough attention.

Regular season college sports not named "football" don't matter except how they position you for the postseason. IIRC Knuckles data showed that about 1.5 million people in the other 49 States watched the basketball game. But out of how many, 320 million people??

You have to look at the other factors... Do we make more money on the LPT game? Doubtful. Does it help our resume? Historically, when we beat them, they aren't that good. Do we enjoy the series more? Which team has won more games lately?

Remember the definition of insanity...

"Elite program", my a$$.
 
The two more wins didn't happen.

Any argument based on hypothetical outcomes as opposed to the real outcomes is fantasy land stuff.

I will not join you in fantasy land Zipp!
Tell that to Howie... He posed the original question.

Besides it's a value argument at this point, and how you think. This kinda debate sheds a lotta light...
 
Personally, I'd have preferred beating UK, IU, Virginia and ND. Then also Baylor, Florida State and Virginia (again).

Then everybody else on the way to the 2017 National championship!

But since an undefeated season is out of the question, I will settle for just a 2017 national title....
 
Personally, I'd have preferred beating UK, IU, Virginia and ND. Then also Baylor, Florida State and Virginia (again).

Then everybody else on the way to the 2017 National championship!

But since an undefeated season is out of the question, I will settle for just a 2017 national title....
No one's gonna argue with that! But since we've never finished a season undefeated...
 
Tell that to Howie... He posed the original question.

Besides it's a value argument at this point, and how you think. This kinda debate sheds a lotta light...

I don't talk to Howie. But if/when you do, you can tell him Ipartiedwithhopgood thinks his question is pointless.
 
Ok,not so much IU,but I'll give my argument for beating UK(and it won't involve little brother syndrome).
UK has beaten us 6 out of the last 8 I believe,or something like that.They've beaten us twice in the Tourney with Cal in the last 5 years.Some might begin to think we need to get the monkey off our back(and this is where I fall).
With the early seedings from the committee,the path has been set to face them again.At some point,the tables have to be turned,the bleeding stopped and the psyche of the program restored.If you begin to believe somebody's got your number(much like Virginia) it gets really difficult to exorcise those demons when everything's on the line.
Jmo.
 
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This team defies logic and might make me eat crow if they actually win the ACC. Still feels like a long shot, but that's for another thread.

As for the topic all wins are valuable. Ears makes a very solid counter-point to Zipp in his post above. This is not the NBA, where a certain team must learn how to "go through" another team to get to the title game, IMO - but Ears does make a salient argument.

However, there is something to be said for showing the ability to beat "elite" programs in the out of conference schedule. If UofL reaches the 2nd weekend they figure to have a big dog to need to go through.

I say let's win all the games. I'll trust the staff to determine priority. What does Rick say Zipp?
 
I'll throw another angle or two into the discussion.

What about significant W's out of conference for the ACC? Just looking at the six ranked teams:

UNC
W – Wisc, Ok St, Tenn
L – IU, UK
FSU
W – Ill, Minn, Fla
L – Temp
Lou
W – UK, IU, Purdue, Wich St
L – Baylor
Duke
W – MSU, Fla, Penn St
L – KU
UVa
W – Iowa, OSU, Cal
L – WVU, Nova
ND
W – Colo, NW, Iowa
L – Nova, Purdue

I threw this together quickly, so I may have missed some, but there are not many significant OOC wins in this bunch, especially if you trade two of our wins for ACC wins. I'm just not buying it. The ACC gives us plenty of opportunities for quality wins, which are harder to get OOC (fewer opportunities).

Also, we are in a much better place for seeding this year than in the past, and it's because of our OOC schedule and results. Saturday's selection show just provided that fact for us to work with. Would we be a one seed trading those wins as suggested? I think at the end of the day, if we are atop the ACC and getting compared to other programs for seeding, those additional OOC loses hurt big time. How many times has our seeding been hurt by a weak OOC schedule and result (such as losing to UK)?
 
...What about significant W's out of conference for the ACC?...
I don't think you have to worry about anyone's perception of ACC strength. They're currently ranked #1 in conference RPI, and have the #1 conference SOS. And five ACC teams were seeded in the Top 16 on Sunday.

The ACC really gives you all of the opportunities you need for big wins. That's not a reason you have to play LPT--or anyone else--OOC. (That's obviously not true for them.)

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
Crackin' me up, ears...
Ok,not so much IU,but I'll give my argument for beating UK(and it won't involve little brother syndrome)...
Actually had me waiting for what was coming...
...UK has beaten us 6 out of the last 8 I believe,or something like that.They've beaten us twice in the Tourney with Cal in the last 5 years.Some might begin to think we need to get the monkey off our back(and this is where I fall)...
You're not "little brother", but your reasoning has everything to do with not being able to consistently beat LPT? Is that a joke? WHY does that matter so much to you??

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
Crackin' me up, ears...

Actually had me waiting for what was coming...

You're not "little brother", but your reasoning has everything to do with not being able to consistently beat LPT? Is that a joke? WHY does that matter so much to you??

"Elite program", my a$$...

Zipp, UofL plays Uk every year at least once and sometimes again in the tourney- especially in these last several years. I think, at the very least, having our team know they can beat Uk- and actually doing it- is fairly important. The monkey off the back situation can be a real thing.

I know you would be fine ending the series but that doesn't seem like it will be happening in the foreseeable future, so I'd rather the Cards get their fair share of wins against them whenever possible. I don't like seeing ANY team get the better of the Cards way more often than not. I feel the same way about the current losing streak to UVA and felt the same against GTown in the old Big East, and our games @Notre Dame.
 
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You're not "little brother", but your reasoning has everything to do with not being able to consistently beat LPT? Is that a joke? WHY does that matter so much to you??

"Elite program", my a$$...


He gave you a fairly legit talking point, you just chose to dismiss it. It's not that I think he's right or wrong, but at least understand what he's saying.

He made it clear in his post he thinks the Cards have a strong chance to face UK in the NCAAs, and he provided evidence with the pairings that were shown last weekend....and he simply pointed out he thinks it's in the UofL player's best interest to believe they can beat that team if they have to face them in March, which they have 40% of the time in the last five years - not a huge sample but at least some degree of evidence.

His reasoning has nothing to do with emotion, it appears he's pointing to the importance of a potential rematch in the NCAA Tournament - which is the same thing you find to be the most important.

He's just taking you down a different road.
 
NEVER, EVER, trade a win over Indiana and/or Kentucky in ANY season, for ANY Reason...Beating, and PISSING Off those ARROGANT so called Blue-Bloods BASTARDS is Better than sitting at the Top of the ACC Standings...Because we're Louisville...We SHOULD be in the Top3/4 in the ACC EVERY MF Year Anyway...That EARNS us RESPECT during the season, and during NCAA Tournament Selection!!!

:cool:
 
He gave you a fairly legit talking point, you just chose to dismiss it. It's not that I think he's right or wrong, but at least understand what he's saying.

He made it clear in his post he thinks the Cards have a strong chance to face UK in the NCAAs, and he provided evidence with the pairings that were shown last weekend....and he simply pointed out he thinks it's in the UofL player's best interest to believe they can beat that team if they have to face them in March, which they have 40% of the time in the last five years - not a huge sample but at least some degree of evidence.

His reasoning has nothing to do with emotion, it appears he's pointing to the importance of a potential rematch in the NCAA Tournament - which is the same thing you find to be the most important.

He's just taking you down a different road.
When has anyone directly connected with U of L basketball claimed that playing LPT in the regular season is a good prep for playing them in the postseason? I listen to the AD and coaches talk all of the time, and I'm not sure I've ever heard that rationale given.

And why doesn't it apply to other opponents? Here's the teams we've played the most in the NCAA tourney...

LPT 6 times
UCLA 5
Arkansas 4
Michigan St. 4
Morehead St. 4
UNC (ACC) 4


Two of those LPT games were prior to 1960; all of the UCLA games are since 1972. Anyone heard that we're trying to get UCLA, Michigan State, or Morehead State on the schedule? My guess is Morehead would play us every year at Bailout Arena.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
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NEVER, EVER, trade a win over Indiana and/or Kentucky in ANY season, for ANY Reason...Beating, and PISSING Off those ARROGANT so called Blue-Bloods BASTARDS is Better than sitting at the Top of the ACC Standings...Because we're Louisville...We SHOULD be in the Top3/4 in the ACC EVERY MF Year Anyway...That EARNS us RESPECT during the season, and during NCAA Tournament Selection!!!...
"Anyway" is not the proposition. Sure, we all wanna win every game. But that's not realistic. And the proposition was which wins would you rather have? That's a choice.

An LPT win typically gets us little mileage when we beat them because they aren't too good in those years. So you lose when you win. And I'm not sure how you reconcile wanting to beat "blue blood bastards" and then wanting them to win every other game. I'm not conflicted since I don't want them trashing up our schedule.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
Zipp,

I was at the papa johns stadium expansion celebration a couple weeks ago at the pnc club. You may have been too. Coach Petrino gave a nice talk to the audience.

First and foremost, he talked about how close we were to the playoffs and the biggest goals being for the program to win the ACC and then a national championship. This was met with applause.

He finished his speech stating they were going to do everything they could to beat UK. This was met with even greater applause. Why do you suppose that happened?

Beating UK matters. It matters to the fans. It matters to the donors. It matters to the coaches. And it matters to big Tom. The same is true for basketball. Even more so.

Stop trying to dismiss it.
 
"Anyway" is not the proposition. Sure, we all wanna win every game. But that's not realistic. And the proposition was which wins would you rather have? That's a choice.

An LPT win typically gets us little mileage when we beat them because they aren't too good in those years. So you lose when you win. And I'm not sure how you reconcile wanting to beat "blue blood bastards" and then wanting them to win every other game. I'm not conflicted since I don't want them trashing up our schedule.

"Elite program", my a$$...

I said which Wins I'd rather have if we played them EVERY Year...In Can-Suck Me's case...We play them EVERY Year!!!

It Got us a #1 Seed and National Title in 2013...And before you say they didn't make the Tourney, so they were not any good...They did have a injury to the #1 player in the country, and the rest of their #1 Recruiting Class is like this years...ALL AAU Street Ball...Cal also SUCKS as a Head Coach!!!

Where did I write "Beat Blue Blood Bastards", and THEN wanting them to win every other game...I didn't...I want them to go 0 for EVER!!!

No...You, don't want them beating us...So you rather NOT play them!!!

:cool:
 
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And why doesn't it apply to other opponents? Here's the teams we've played the most in the NCAA tourney...

LPT 6 times
UCLA 5
Arkansas 4
Michigan St. 4
Morehead St. 4
UNC (ACC) 4



"Elite program", my a$$...

Wouldn't apply to other opponents because they don't play them annually in the regular season, nor do those teams hold a strong lead in head to head recently. In fact, Louisville doesn't even play half the teams you listed ever in the regular season, making your mention of those teams completely off topic to the argument Ears gave you.
 
Zipp,

I was at the papa johns stadium expansion celebration a couple weeks ago at the pnc club. You may have been too. Coach Petrino gave a nice talk to the audience.

First and foremost, he talked about how close we were to the playoffs and the biggest goals being for the program to win the ACC and then a national championship. This was met with applause.

He finished his speech stating they were going to do everything they could to beat UK. This was met with even greater applause. Why do you suppose that happened?

Beating UK matters. It matters to the fans. It matters to the donors. It matters to the coaches. And it matters to big Tom. The same is true for basketball. Even more so.

Stop trying to dismiss it.
I've always acknowledged that Petrino is the one U of L coach who plays up the rivalry. He also competes in a sport with one of the shortest seasons, in which the players are coached to be "high" for every game. (Not the "no highs and lows" approach we hear from, for example, Dan McDonnell in baseball...) In fact, Petrino would otherwise look for a reason to keep his players up for this game--makes it easier calling it a "rivalry".

And does "greater applause" mean that should be our top goal as a program? I hope not.

You can't objectively argue the merits anymore of scheduling LPT in just about any sport. Much of that changed with the move to the ACC, but it's been an evolving situation. Our athletic programs have largely passed theirs, and they derive the greater benefits from playing the games. I have no desire to try to help their athletic programs.

Playing them home-and-away is an undeserved status for them. If they wanna play us every year, it should be 2-for-1 or home games only. Either their programs are inferior (like football), or they need us more than we need them (basketball). In some cases, maybe both.

And unfortunately, what fans want is not a consideration in the end. Some of our fans wanna still play Cincy and Memphis, and that ain't happening. The differences between us and those teams may be more easy to see making this reality more easy to accept. And someday, it will be just as easy to see and hopefully accept with LPT.

Get out your blue pom-poms 'cuz you need them to win tonite against the mighty Vols.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
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...It Got us a #1 Seed and National Title in 2013...And before you say they didn't make the Tourney, so they were not any good...They did have a injury to the #1 player in the country, and the rest of their #1 Recruiting Class is like this years...ALL AAU Street Ball...Cal also SUCKS as a Head Coach!!!...
They were a disappointment that year at the time of our game too... Already out of the AP Top 25 by the time of the game. In fact, their best wins were AFTER Noel's injury.
...Where did I write "Beat Blue Blood Bastards", and THEN wanting them to win every other game...I didn't...I want them to go 0 for EVER!!!...
You can't have it both ways... You can't want 'em on your schedule as a marquee OOC opponent, and then pull for them to lose every week. That's insanity. If they're important enough to schedule every year OOC, they're important--period--or they're not. Which is it?
...No...You, don't want them beating us...So you rather NOT play them!!
That's simple slapd!ck logic... The problem is it doesn't work in football where I wanna drop them too. More to lose each year than win, which is becoming true in most sports with them.

Unlike too many of our fans, I don't measure myself against LPT so my school doesn't need to play them. I long ago cast off the "little brother" baggage.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
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Wouldn't apply to other opponents because they don't play them annually in the regular season, nor do those teams hold a strong lead in head to head recently. In fact, Louisville doesn't even play half the teams you listed ever in the regular season, making your mention of those teams completely off topic to the argument Ears gave you.
No, ears' logic was we SHOULD schedule them to prepare, or SHOULD keep them on the schedule to prepare. That's a forward-looking consideration which is what you do with a schedule.

But those other teams aren't on our schedule annually because his POV doesn't hold water. LPT's place on our schedule has nothing to do with the likelihood we'll face them in the postseason. Just a baseless argument to hold onto a "rivalry" game.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
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No, ears' logic was we SHOULD schedule them to prepare, or keep them on the schedule to prepare.

"Elite program", my a$$...

That was not Ears logic as I read it. But maybe he can come back to clarify.

I took his logic was he simply wanted to see UofL beat UK since they are ON the schedule (much to your dismay!) and there is a decent chance UofL may have to play them in the post season, and Ears would like to see the players gain confidence should they meet in the post season with a win in the regular season against them.

Ears is not debating if UofL should or should not schedule UK. Ears is saying since they are on the schedule, it would be a positive to beat them if the teams play in March for a rematch - which has happened 40% of the time in the last 5 post seasons.

You are now changing the topic. Instead of asking for fans to weigh the importance of which wins matter most, you are now asking which games should be played.
 
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Zipp,

I was at the papa johns stadium expansion celebration a couple weeks ago at the pnc club. You may have been too. Coach Petrino gave a nice talk to the audience.

First and foremost, he talked about how close we were to the playoffs and the biggest goals being for the program to win the ACC and then a national championship. This was met with applause.

He finished his speech stating they were going to do everything they could to beat UK. This was met with even greater applause. Why do you suppose that happened?

Beating UK matters. It matters to the fans. It matters to the donors. It matters to the coaches. And it matters to big Tom. The same is true for basketball. Even more so.

Stop trying to dismiss it.

It matters to everybody but zipp, apparently. The only thing that appears to matter to zipp is that, once he goes on record with a viewpoint, that his viewpoint be proven correct.

He's 100% right about the stupid financials and outright lies used to build the Yum Center. But he's wrong about this, and he's wrong in stating that UofL should not have imposed a postseason ban last year.
 
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