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Analysis of LPT Basketball Series (1983-Present)

zipp

Elite Member
Jun 26, 2001
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A lot is made of Louisville’s performance in this series without IMO a corresponding amount of analysis. Specifically, do the results indicate some type of underperformance with respect to LPT compared to other teams that U of L plays? In order to understand that, you have to account for how good/bad the two teams are during the time period of interest.

I looked at won-lost records for the modern series based on two factors: home vs. road (since some fans think LPT “owns” U of L’s home venue), and the quality of each team as measured by their final ranking. I started using the RPI which the NCAA uses to seed teams, but I couldn’t find RPI data prior to 1999. So, I also used AP Top 25 rankings between 1983 and 1998. There were two early years, 1985 and 1987, in which neither team was ranked in the final AP poll. I looked at final rankings as the truest measure of quality, how good each team actually was based on their full season’s body of work.

I can post the individual data points, but the summary is most useful. Here is my approach to summarizing more than three decades and the 37 games involved. All of these are records for U of L unless otherwise stated, “home” is in Louisville, “road” is at Rupp Arena, and “neutral site” is neither in Lexington or Louisville…

As better team at home: 3-1 (0.750)
As worse team at home: 3-7 (0.300)


As better team on road: 2-0 (1.000)
As worse team on road: 2-14 (0.125)


As better team at neutral site: 1-0 (1.000)
As worse team at neutral site: 0-2 (0.000)


When neither team is ranked: 1-1 (0.500)

And pooling these numbers, the following more general stats result…

As better team: 6-1 (0.857)
As worse team: 5-23 (0.179) – LPT as better team: 23-5 (0.821)

At home: 7-9 (0.483)
On road: 4-14 (0.222)

Neutral site: 1-2 (0.333)

And now my analysis of these results from the top-down... None of these results are unexpected for any two teams in competition. You can look at any grouping by factor above to gauge that. There is quite clearly a home/road bias for both teams. The raw numbers skew negative for U of L simply based on how much higher LPT has been ranked nationally over the years.

U of L is 12-25 in the modern-day series. Yet, U of L has finished the year as the better team for only 7 of the 35 games in which one of the two teams was ranked by season’s end. (Again, for two early games in the series, neither team was ranked by AP at the end of the year.) With 12 victories and only 7 instances of competing as the better team, U of L has arguably OUTPERFORMED in the games against LPT.

Another example of that has been our performance in those 7 games retrospectively judged as the better team: 6-1, or 85.7 winning percentage. Compare that to LPT’s performance as the better team: 23-5, or 82.1%. Not much difference, but U of L has performed slightly better as the better team. (And likewise, slightly better—17.9% vs. 14.3%—as the inferior team.)

With only those 7 data points, it’s difficult to make a home-road analysis as the better/worse team. It’s also difficult to make determinations about true neutral site games since there are only three examples of games played in the modern series outside of Kentucky. Disregarding small quantities of available data, a won-lost percentage matrix can be constructed with all of these combinations. Here is the result…
UK%20Series%20Matrix_zpsaootye6i.jpg

When you lose this game, it’s not because LPT “has Louisville’s (or Pitino’s) number”, because they win disproportionately in Louisville, because U of L chokes rivalry games more than they do, or any other garbage you believe or have been fed that isn’t objectively based. When that happens, it’s much more likely that the slappies have fielded a better team compared to U of L—or another team. There’s nothing unique about Louisville playing them. And if you don’t like NOT having the better team more often, that’s not an LPT issue unless you make it one. My analysis of that perspective is “little brother syndrome”—you’re fixated on being better so you can beat them.

If there is a legit and constructive takeaway from this game, it’s that the result has a pretty good correlation with how good your team is by the end of the year. On average, it doesn’t yield too many results that are hard to explain by season’s end, in either direction for either team. That alone doesn’t justify playing the game, but it does mean the results aren’t random.

“Elite program”, my a$$...
 
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I'm not going to bother responding to Zipp, but I've had good discussion with quite a few of you guys over on the main board. Just wanted to say good luck tomorrow night, I fully expect a close game, as it always is. Anyone else bummed this game isn't on a Saturday like normal? This game is an all day event for me and my family (huge Louisville fans for the most part) and there is only so much you can drink between getting off work and tip off ;)

Here's to no injuries, fellas. Peace.
 
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This is like an NFL team going 0-16, but claiming a 12-4 record because they covered the spread 12 times. It's a good analysis once you get past the point that one school has been far better than the other in most years, which is all most people care about when talking about the series.
 
Zipp,

I can understand your animosity for a sports rival and its fan base.

But why do you constantly refer to Kentucky as LPT (Louisville's Play Thing?) ?

UK leads the football series 15-14.

UK leads the basketball series 34-15, including winning 8 of the last 9 games.
I believe that nickname for Kentucky came about when Gillispie was UK's coach and the Cards had won 4 of 7. But at this point it does look fairly ridiculous.
 
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I like this rivalry, believe me, and I think you need to have thick skin, but at 3am posting this stuff . . . man Zipp, I'm not even joking or being mean spirited, you gotta get some perspective. You posted all that to try to prove something that doesn't exist, really or metaphysically. Its a game played by young people.
 
Appreciate all the LPT interlopers weighing in... But as one or two have pointed out, this is simply an objective analysis saying that LPT should win a disproportionate number of games in the series as the higher performing/rated team.

Some of you can say "so what" as if this was common knowledge. But we've all heard the owning-Yum or owning-Rick bull$hit from slapd!cks and, sadly, believed by some in my own fanbase when they've heard it enough. And it's just that, bull$hit, when you look at how the teams were ranked thru history by season's end.

Truth be told, LPT should have won more of these games based on that game-by-game analysis. Not unlike how Pitino Lite should be winning more championships. I guess you can attribute some of that to the rivalry factor we hear about where favorites and spreads don't matter. Whatever. If my team was proven better 80% of the time, I might be asking why I just win two-thirds of the games esp. since more games have been played in Lexington than Louisville.

And as far as U of L fans, some of us need a little perspective on this game that we don't have. The analysis above isn't universally understood or embraced. We don't have to beat the slapd!cks in basketball simply because you're slapd!cks. Any of our fans who skew that way have a minor case of little brother-itis and need to be reminded. For those who can't deal with it as adults, that condition feeds into my belief that all of the LPT games should be discontinued. It's a neurosis that doesn't have to be treated, just prevented.

I think I've covered the bases...thanks for your input.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
Zipp,

I can understand your animosity for a sports rival and its fan base.

But why do you constantly refer to Kentucky as LPT (Louisville's Play Thing?) ?

UK leads the football series 15-14.

UK leads the basketball series 34-15, including winning 8 of the last 9 games.
LPT fans need to just pin this explanation to the top of their message boards...

The term "Louisville's Play Toy" was created by Matt Hayes of The Sporting News about a decade ago. If I understand correctly, it was done in reference to Petrino and football. But it's stuck in the lexicon of U of L fans for anything related to slapd!cks (interestingly, another term that reportedly Petrino coined himself). And to my knowledge, Hayes has never retracted it or copyrighted it.

Hope no one minds me using someone else's creation as a nickname. And if anyone finds a retraction by Hayes, I'll consider dropping it too. Or maybe if LPT fans just stop making an issue of it.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
So saying that UK owns Pitino is false? Saying they win at the Yum is false?
 
...The fallacy is, by your admission of this data, is that Louisville is superior even when Kentucky wins. That is in fact the abstract of what you are trying to present, no matter what you say or how many times you call us "slapd****", you can't change the reality you are trying to present, which in fact is absent...
Either you're not writing well, or you don't understand what you read. The "fallacy" is the opposite... LPT is the better team more often (28 of 35, or 80%) than you win (25 of 37, or 68%).

THAT is the reality and doesn't need any defense. You don't argue facts, no one besides slapd!cks anyway.

I might also remind that 18 games have been played in Lexington, 14 in Louisville, and 3 outside of Kentucky. Which makes 68% even harder to understand.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
Appreciate all the LPT interlopers weighing in... But as one or two have pointed out, this is simply an objective analysis saying that LPT should win a disproportionate number of games in the series as the higher performing/rated team.

Some of you can say "so what" as if this was common knowledge. But we've all heard the owning-Yum or owning-Rick bull$hit from slapd!cks and, sadly, believed by some in my own fanbase when they've heard it enough. And it's just that, bull$hit, when you look at how the teams were ranked thru history by season's end.

Truth be told, LPT should have won more of these games based on that game-by-game analysis. Not unlike how Pitino Lite should be winning more championships. I guess you can attribute some of that to the rivalry factor we hear about where favorites and spreads don't matter. Whatever. If my team was proven better 80% of the time, I might be asking why I just win two-thirds of the games esp. since more games have been played in Lexington than Louisville.

And as far as U of L fans, some of us need a little perspective on this game that we don't have. The analysis above isn't universally understood or embraced. We don't have to beat the slapd!cks in basketball simply because you're slapd!cks. Any of our fans who skew that way have a minor case of little brother-itis and need to be reminded. For those who can't deal with it as adults, that condition feeds into my belief that all of the LPT games should be discontinued. It's a neurosis that doesn't have to be treated, just prevented.

I think I've covered the bases...thanks for your input.

"Elite program", my a$$...
I see now. You're trying to soften the blow should ky win again tomorrow. There's no need for that. I'm a uk fan and I actually like Louisvilles chances tomorrow. Stick your chest out. Don't make pre-excuses.
 
So saying that UK owns Pitino is false? Saying they win at the Yum is false?
No more than saying you "own" anyone else against whom you win more than you lose.

To identify one team you own implies you don't own the rest. And if you're alleging "own" simply means winning more games, the reference is factually incorrect.

"Elite program". my a$$...
 
I see now. You're trying to soften the blow should ky win again tomorrow. There's no need for that. I'm a uk fan and I actually like Louisvilles chances tomorrow. Stick your chest out. Don't make pre-excuses.
You don't "see" anything because you're a typical slappy who doesn't understand analysis...

There is no legit "blow" or satisfaction either way tomorrow because you won't know until season's end whether a win or loss was expected. LPT is rated sl. higher now. But a loss tomorrow bumps Louisville ahead in all likelihood. And if the season ends that way, U of L should have won. All a victory will be is validation of that retrospectively.

And should U of L win and LPT has the better season, it will be another example in this series of where U of L won but probably shouldn't have. At least that's what the stats say. Slappies really need to start demanding answers.

:D

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
UK owns UL in basketball. Spin anyway you wish, you know it is true.
If "own" means win more, agreed. If it means win more than you should, that's false. In fact, the opposite is true analytically--U of L wins more than it should.

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
You don't "see" anything because you're a typical slappy who doesn't understand analysis...

There is no legit "blow" or satisfaction either way tomorrow because you won't know until season's end whether a win or loss was expected. LPT is rated sl. higher now. But a loss tomorrow bumps Louisville ahead in all likelihood. And if the season ends that way, U of L should have won. All a victory will be is validation of that retrospectively.

And should U of L win and LPT has the better season, it will be another example in this series of where U of L won but probably shouldn't have. At least that's what the stats say. Slappies really need to start demanding answers.

:D

"Elite program", my a$$...
Man I don't have time to read a wall of math and I really don't care enough anyways. What matters is W and L's. That's it. End of story.

The rivalry is the battle within the war. You can win the battle and lose the war or win/lose both. At the end of the year we can talk about who finished better. You're putting the cart before the horse.
 
An open message to our visitors. Wise up! You KNOW you can't go to any rival's board and disrespect their players, coaches, programs, or posters. The majority of disrespectful posts from our visitors are aimed at one individual poster here. The majority of timeouts issued are due to disrespectful posts in reaction to one individual poster here. The majority of bans are issued due to either persistent disrespectful posts in reaction to one individual here or really bad first time posts in reaction to one individual poster here. Are you seeing the trend here? Is it sinking in? Do you NOT consider the possibility you are falling victim to being lured into earning yourselves timeouts or bans? Is it really worth your posting access to come here, take your disrespectful shots (but go back and tell each other "I was 100% respectful, and still got deleted/timedout/banned"), then go back and high five each other? All in a vain/failed attempt to get the best of one individual here? You will not be allowed to come to this board and disrespect our players, coach, programs or ANY posters....JUST like any other message board, including yours. Just to relate a little personal experience, I was once issued a timeout on the UK board for telling Jauk11 he had a stick up his butt by a UK mod I consider a friend to this day. I earned it...and I wised up quickly. So, you may just want to consider taking your shots, and high fiving each other on your own board. Just a suggestion...or keep on flailing away and accept the consequences.. Your call.

And FTR, a "timeout" is a temporary loss of posting access. A "ban" is a permanent loss of posting AND reading access. If you can read this while being signed in, you're not "banned".
 
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An open message to our visitors. Wise up! You KNOW you can't go to any rival's board and disrespect their players, coaches, programs, or posters. The majority of disrespectful posts from our visitors are aimed at one individual poster here. The majority of timeouts issued are due to disrespectful posts in reaction to one individual poster here. The majority of bans are issued due to either persistent disrespectful posts in reaction to one individual here or really bad first time posts in reaction to one individual poster here. Are you seeing the trend here? Is it sinking in? Do you NOT consider the possibility you are falling victim to being lured into earning yourselves timeouts or bans? Is it really worth your posting access to come here, take your disrespectful shots (but go back and tell each other "I was 100% respectful, and still got deleted/timedout/banned"), then go back and high five each other? All in a vain/failed attempt to get the best of one individual here? You will not be allowed to come to this board and disrespect our players, coach, programs or ANY posters....JUST like any other message board, including yours. Just to relate a little personal experience, I was once issued a timeout on the UK board for telling Jauk11 he had a stick up his butt by a UK mod I consider a friend to this day. I earned it...and I wised up quickly. So, you may just want to consider taking your shots, and high fiving each other on your own board. Just a suggestion...or keep on flailing away and accept the consequences.. Your call.

This is a fair statement and I completely understand. But if everyone is coming to bash a single poster, wouldn't you think it is not everyone else's fault and it is actually the single poster trying ruffle up feathers and start stuff with other posters/rival posters? (especially with the name calling that said poster does) Just my 2 cents.
 
Not attacking anyone but when mods get thin skinned about any opposing fan base and bans everyone, then the boards suffer and imo get boring. I love hearing from opposing fans. It's part of what makes sports sports.
 
Not attacking anyone but when mods get thin skinned about any opposing fan base and bans everyone, then the boards suffer and imo get boring. I love hearing from opposing fans. It's part of what makes sports sports.
lol,mods getting "thin skinned" ?Most of us can't even gain access to retort over on your board.lol
 
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This is a fair statement and I completely understand. But if everyone is coming to bash a single poster, wouldn't you think it is not everyone else's fault and it is actually the single poster trying ruffle up feathers and start stuff with other posters/rival posters? (especially with the name calling that said poster does) Just my 2 cents.

It's not "everyone" who is falling victim, just the gullible ones seeking to deliver their shots directly over here.. The vast majority, who have a reaction, "take their shots" on their own board. And I would say most overall just ignore it.
 
This board is a unique one. No one will get this reference but I will make it anyway. Back in the mid 2000's I would frequent a Tampa bay bucs board (I'm a big fan). It was within a network of official NFL boards much like rivals here. But for some reason the bucs board quietly became the go-to board for all NFL fan bases. I'm not sure how it happened but posters from all teams would discuss topics on the bucs board. It was pretty neat but the rules were Inforced very strictly. In order for it to work, the mods had to adapt to the thousands of new posters and the bucs posters had to adjust their methods as well. What happened was an awesome sports discussion board between several fan bases without resorting to personal attacks. Everyone knows what triggers certain reactions. It can work.
 
In fairness--and I don't want to disagree entirely with Steelers' message--but to attribute this particular debate simply to me goading LPT fans is a disservice to the subject. I didn't put in the analytical work to have it relegated to nothing more than another LPT attack by 'zipp'.

It's also not directed exclusively at LPT fans as I've already remarked. A few in our own fanbase are oblivious to the reality of this series. And when they can't deal with it logically, I go to my argument du jour of cancelling these LPT contests. That should happen when you can't emotionally handle the outcomes, esp. when that situation leads to what I call an "asymmetric outcome", i.e., you lose more (when you lose) than you win (when you win).

Carry on...

"Elite program", my a$$...
 
This board is a unique one. No one will get this reference but I will make it anyway. Back in the mid 2000's I would frequent a Tampa bay bucs board (I'm a big fan). It was within a network of official NFL boards much like rivals here. But for some reason the bucs board quietly became the go-to board for all NFL fan bases. I'm not sure how it happened but posters from all teams would discuss topics on the bucs board. It was pretty neat but the rules were Inforced very strictly. In order for it to work, the mods had to adapt to the thousands of new posters and the bucs posters had to adjust their methods as well. What happened was an awesome sports discussion board between several fan bases without resorting to personal attacks. Everyone knows what triggers certain reactions. It can work.
This board doesn't get near that traffic
 
A lot is made of Louisville’s performance in this series without IMO a corresponding amount of analysis. Specifically, do the results indicate some type of underperformance with respect to LPT compared to other teams that U of L plays? In order to understand that, you have to account for how good/bad the two teams are during the time period of interest.

I looked at won-lost records for the modern series based on two factors: home vs. road (since some fans think LPT “owns” U of L’s home venue), and the quality of each team as measured by their final ranking. I started using the RPI which the NCAA uses to seed teams, but I couldn’t find RPI data prior to 1999. So, I also used AP Top 25 rankings between 1983 and 1998. There were two early years, 1985 and 1987, in which neither team was ranked in the final AP poll. I looked at final rankings as the truest measure of quality, how good each team actually was based on their full season’s body of work.

I can post the individual data points, but the summary is most useful. Here is my approach to summarizing more than three decades and the 37 games involved. All of these are records for U of L unless otherwise stated, “home” is in Louisville, “road” is at Rupp Arena, and “neutral site” is neither in Lexington or Louisville…

As better team at home: 3-1 (0.750)
As worse team at home: 3-7 (0.300)


As better team on road: 2-0 (1.000)
As worse team on road: 2-14 (0.125)


As better team at neutral site: 1-0 (1.000)
As worse team at neutral site: 0-2 (0.000)


When neither team is ranked: 1-1 (0.500)

And pooling these numbers, the following more general stats result…

As better team: 6-1 (0.857)
As worse team: 5-23 (0.179) – LPT as better team: 23-5 (0.821)

At home: 7-9 (0.483)
On road: 4-14 (0.222)

Neutral site: 1-2 (0.333)

And now my analysis of these results from the top-down... None of these results are unexpected for any two teams in competition. You can look at any grouping by factor above to gauge that. There is quite clearly a home/road bias for both teams. The raw numbers skew negative for U of L simply based on how much higher LPT has been ranked nationally over the years.

U of L is 12-25 in the modern-day series. Yet, U of L has finished the year as the better team for only 7 of the 35 games in which one of the two teams was ranked by season’s end. (Again, for two early games in the series, neither team was ranked by AP at the end of the year.) With 12 victories and only 7 instances of competing as the better team, U of L has arguably OUTPERFORMED in the games against LPT.

Another example of that has been our performance in those 7 games retrospectively judged as the better team: 6-1, or 85.7 winning percentage. Compare that to LPT’s performance as the better team: 23-5, or 82.1%. Not much difference, but U of L has performed slightly better as the better team. (And likewise, slightly better—17.9% vs. 14.3%—as the inferior team.)

With only those 7 data points, it’s difficult to make a home-road analysis as the better/worse team. It’s also difficult to make determinations about true neutral site games since there are only three examples of games played in the modern series outside of Kentucky. Disregarding small quantities of available data, a won-lost percentage matrix can be constructed with all of these combinations. Here is the result…
UK%20Series%20Matrix_zpsaootye6i.jpg

When you lose this game, it’s not because LPT “has Louisville’s (or Pitino’s) number”, because they win disproportionately in Louisville, because U of L chokes rivalry games more than they do, or any other garbage you believe or have been fed that isn’t objectively based. When that happens, it’s much more likely that the slappies have fielded a better team compared to U of L—or another team. There’s nothing unique about Louisville playing them. And if you don’t like NOT having the better team more often, that’s not an LPT issue unless you make it one. My analysis of that perspective is “little brother syndrome”—you’re fixated on being better so you can beat them.

If there is a legit and constructive takeaway from this game, it’s that the result has a pretty good correlation with how good your team is by the end of the year. On average, it doesn’t yield too many results that are hard to explain by season’s end, in either direction for either team. That alone doesn’t justify playing the game, but it does mean the results aren’t random.

“Elite program”, my a$$...
 
Im astounded you put this much time into UK each day. You've got UL, aren't you interested in your team at all?
 
Hey Zipp -

I thought your essay was very good, well-written and informative! I enjoy reading your comments, as they are accurate and articulate. If there are a few snotty comments, that is because they don't have your ability to gather information and concisely write about it. Again - good job on a very informative piece!
 
By this logic, UK isn't actually owned by Florida in football despite losing 30 in a row to them. They were probably underdogs in the majority, if not every game.
One minor difference. UofK hasn't beat Florida since 1986. I'm fairly sure the Cardinals have beat UofK and Florida since UofK's last football win over the Gators.
 
If I were you, zipp, I'd change my word choice of "outperform". "Outperforming" would seem to point to who had more wins. In this case, UK has outperformed Louisville. To be more clear, I'd change it to say "exceeded expectations".

But then again, I'm not you... ;)
 
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