UofL v UK
- Thread starter Bardman
- Start date
I have heard how Jeff has to kick HVL out of the gym. She is one of the most conditioned athletes to play, even more than Shoni was. I would agree sitting her if I knew that would increase her efficiency. If she's on the bench, obviously she's not scoring, not rebounding, making assists, etc. Maybe a few less turnovers? Who on that bench can provide what HVL provides? Also she makes turnovers because she is trying too hard not because she gets tired. Carr and HVL both played 40 mins last game. I'll trust CJW that he knows the limits of his players. Also on a 5 game win streak...
Not sure why so many get confrontational when a different perspective is discussed. But, any way, why HVL? BECAUSE we were talking about HVL - that is why. Any player, in a game like basketball, can benefit from a quick blow and just see what is happening on the floor. I think the main point CJW HAS certainly, over time, shown a great deal of patience with certain players and very little with others. That can be perceived as favoritism. I am Not saying that he is showing favoritism; just saying those substitutions and lack of yelling at certain players can come off that way.
I suspect that fans like those of us on this thread do not talk to the players or the coaches, at least I have no direct communication with any of them. Any suggestion of favoritism is misdirected, as who plays and for what number of minutes, is based on what CJW believes is in the best long term interest of the team.
There is no player on this team who exerts more effort on the defensive end, or handles the ball more on the offensive end than HVL …..she gives 100%. Right now her defense is ahead of her offense (particularly perimeter shooting percentage) and I suspect her extended time on the court is precisely what CJW believes that she needs to reach her potential.
I have no idea as to why PVH left the team, but her on-court performance explained her limited minutes, as she did not contribute defensively, or provide any rebounding or assists. Peyton has a great shooting touch, but her shots were not falling, and this team has too much roster potential to give minutes to a player who was not playing solid defense.
There is no player on this team who exerts more effort on the defensive end, or handles the ball more on the offensive end than HVL …..she gives 100%. Right now her defense is ahead of her offense (particularly perimeter shooting percentage) and I suspect her extended time on the court is precisely what CJW believes that she needs to reach her potential.
I have no idea as to why PVH left the team, but her on-court performance explained her limited minutes, as she did not contribute defensively, or provide any rebounding or assists. Peyton has a great shooting touch, but her shots were not falling, and this team has too much roster potential to give minutes to a player who was not playing solid defense.
I don’t think many of us have direct contact with players or coaches, we are just participants in a message board where we scribe what we see.
Obviously, any critique of HVL is highly unpopular and defended by many. Contrary to my post, I’m a fan of HVL, but I’ve noticed that she has not had a great start to this 2022/23 season. Defensively, she may work hard but she’s burned on many occasions, and her statistics offensively are not on par with her pre season All American rankings. I don’t see any player working harder than Mykassa on defense and more recently Carr has been a ball hawk defensively. Offensively, HVL does amazing things at the end of games, I would like to see better shot selection throughout the pace of the game and she still struggles feeding the post, hence the higher turnover number this season. I suspect this will improve and tighten up the second half of the season. The great thing about Coach Walz is that he typically figures out how to get maximum effort out of his teams.
Obviously, any critique of HVL is highly unpopular and defended by many. Contrary to my post, I’m a fan of HVL, but I’ve noticed that she has not had a great start to this 2022/23 season. Defensively, she may work hard but she’s burned on many occasions, and her statistics offensively are not on par with her pre season All American rankings. I don’t see any player working harder than Mykassa on defense and more recently Carr has been a ball hawk defensively. Offensively, HVL does amazing things at the end of games, I would like to see better shot selection throughout the pace of the game and she still struggles feeding the post, hence the higher turnover number this season. I suspect this will improve and tighten up the second half of the season. The great thing about Coach Walz is that he typically figures out how to get maximum effort out of his teams.
I support all the players on the team and I am glad Carr had a great game and scored 21 points but the next game she didn’t. HVL averages 20 points a game and against our upcoming game with Syracuse she will probably do the same. When we can get all our guards scoring consistently double figures every game we are good. Along with the front court players doing their share we will be a top team.
We are almost there and the next few games will tell us something. I don’t see how Syracuse keeps losing their best players and still remains competitive.
We are almost there and the next few games will tell us something. I don’t see how Syracuse keeps losing their best players and still remains competitive.
We haven’t played since Carr scored 21 points and pulled 17 rebounds. She averages 11 points per game and shoots 46% from 3pt range.
What we haven’t been able to replace is Kianna’s production from 3pt range as well as Engstler’s terrorizing presence defensively. We played much better defensively as a unit against DePaul, we just have those gaps were we aren’t productive.
Merrissah has really come on recently and is turning out to be a dangerous threat from 3pt range, something Coach was expecting from Payton. We are still short a shooter, and despite her current percentage, I’m counting HVL as one of the three threats we have from behind the arc.
Interested to see how Mykassa is inserted back into the lineup.
What we haven’t been able to replace is Kianna’s production from 3pt range as well as Engstler’s terrorizing presence defensively. We played much better defensively as a unit against DePaul, we just have those gaps were we aren’t productive.
Merrissah has really come on recently and is turning out to be a dangerous threat from 3pt range, something Coach was expecting from Payton. We are still short a shooter, and despite her current percentage, I’m counting HVL as one of the three threats we have from behind the arc.
Interested to see how Mykassa is inserted back into the lineup.
My issue with those arguing about HVL minutes, or even the lack of her being rested periodically, is far more about my defending CJW and his judgement.
Up until Jeff Brohm’s recent hiring, I think most would agree that Jeff Walz, Dan McDonnell and Dani Busboom Kelly were the only UL Head Coaches who have delivered performances worthy of recognition as the very best in their respective disciplines.
I get this site is all about opinions, but confusion over a individual players performance with the Coach’s decision to utilize them is mis-directed.
As for me, I have complete confidence that CJW is intentionally using HVL in such a manner that he believes will result in the very best outcome for his team. We have four losses early on, and the scheduling was designed to expose these kids to tough competition in unfriendly and distant places …. consistent with conference play and tournament conditions.
Up until Jeff Brohm’s recent hiring, I think most would agree that Jeff Walz, Dan McDonnell and Dani Busboom Kelly were the only UL Head Coaches who have delivered performances worthy of recognition as the very best in their respective disciplines.
I get this site is all about opinions, but confusion over a individual players performance with the Coach’s decision to utilize them is mis-directed.
As for me, I have complete confidence that CJW is intentionally using HVL in such a manner that he believes will result in the very best outcome for his team. We have four losses early on, and the scheduling was designed to expose these kids to tough competition in unfriendly and distant places …. consistent with conference play and tournament conditions.
This is a message board, we discuss all things UofL, nothing is Mis-directed. Coach Walz is a top 10 Coach, who has been to the Final Four many times, but has been stuck on getting over the hump to get that coveted Championship.
He chose to stockpile talent, if he doesn’t want to use his talent, that is his choice. His competitors that he struggles to beat plays their talent, and rotates that talent throughout the game. If he decides to live and die with HVL not taking breathers, that’s his choice, but it will not come without scrutiny.
We began this season ranked 6th, we aren’t ranked, and HVL’s numbers are terrible right now. Once they improve maybe we go back up, or maybe this turns into Carr’s team, I don’t know. I’m sure he will figure it out, hopefully when Mykassa returns her minutes aren’t all divided with just Carr, maybe he will start bringing her out in small intervals. HVL is a volume shooter shooting 24% from long range, we will not return to a Final Four at that rate of production.
He chose to stockpile talent, if he doesn’t want to use his talent, that is his choice. His competitors that he struggles to beat plays their talent, and rotates that talent throughout the game. If he decides to live and die with HVL not taking breathers, that’s his choice, but it will not come without scrutiny.
We began this season ranked 6th, we aren’t ranked, and HVL’s numbers are terrible right now. Once they improve maybe we go back up, or maybe this turns into Carr’s team, I don’t know. I’m sure he will figure it out, hopefully when Mykassa returns her minutes aren’t all divided with just Carr, maybe he will start bringing her out in small intervals. HVL is a volume shooter shooting 24% from long range, we will not return to a Final Four at that rate of production.
I totally disagree with this because the top teams do not rotate their talent to get everyone in the game. The top teams go down to an 8 player rotation at this level we are not at all play. The players understand this that is why they earn their playing time in practice.
Denny Crum would start the season off with about a 9 player rotation and by Christmas he would have it down to an 8 player rotation. In order to get to a rotation of more than 8 players you are going to have to go back to the grade school mentality. I’ve watched South Carolina play several times this year and they don’t play more than 8 players the whole game even at the end when they are beating teams by 30.
Denny Crum would start the season off with about a 9 player rotation and by Christmas he would have it down to an 8 player rotation. In order to get to a rotation of more than 8 players you are going to have to go back to the grade school mentality. I’ve watched South Carolina play several times this year and they don’t play more than 8 players the whole game even at the end when they are beating teams by 30.
HVL is averaging 21 points a game I don’t find that horrible and I don’t care how she gets her points.
You have not researched the top teams, the top teams with deep benches like S.Carolina and Standiford do not have a player that averages 30 min a game, Ohio St top player averages 32 min per game, there are teams that aren’t as deep that have players that play min, but the deep teams rotate.
As you say, “this is a message board”, so I am within my own prerogative to see posters as “mid.directed”. Any criticism about HVL’s points and minutes is really more about Jeff’s coaching. Posters are entitled to express criticism to both, but it does not prohibit me from expressing my characterization as mid-directed.
I could care less about where our preseason ratings are; as I am far more concerned with where we are at the end of the year.
I recall those 10 years or so where some fans were expressing frustration with Denny for having gotten to final four appearances before winning his first in 1980.
I could care less about where our preseason ratings are; as I am far more concerned with where we are at the end of the year.
I recall those 10 years or so where some fans were expressing frustration with Denny for having gotten to final four appearances before winning his first in 1980.
I think when we look at HVL minutes, we are overlooking one thing. CJW has totally bought into the transfer portal. Yes, he got Carr to be his PG but the team's early struggles indicated that the chemistry wasn't exactly right. HVL has been with Jeff now 3 years and knows his offense better than anyone on the roster with maybe the exception of Mycasa. She's injured right now. Another reason for HVL to play more minutes. Even though Carr is a good player you can't expect her to walk in and run the offense to perfection. In fact, last night she look almost like a 2 guard. Also you have to take into consideration the other aspects of HVL's game. Yes, she's 5-7 but she often is #2 or #3 in rebounds and 1 or 2 in assists. CJW is figuring it out.
I totally get the positive attributes of playing HVL minutes for the reasons stated and agree, you can’t expect Carr to step in and run the offense to perfection. Carr even stated this is the first time she’s played PG so there is an adjustment period. However, when players are pulled for silly mistakes, but you don’t pull HVL for the same mistakes, it doesn’t look right. She is typically #2 in assist and sometimes rebounding, but she’s typicall first in turnover, averaging 3.8 per game while shooting 25% from 3 pt range as your main gun. The expectations of a three year starter should be higher, not less than someone new to the program, but that’s not the case. Her errors are over looked while Coach is foaming at the mouth screaming at Morgan Jones for the same mistakes.
If you are a fan of this team and not a fan of HVL, then something’s wrong with your fandome with the fire and mental toughness she brings to the team. Sometimes its good to come out, reset and get a feel of the game if that night is just not your night. Then go back in and make the correct adjustments to your game. That’s all that is being stated…..
We could have learned something two years ago when Dana was having a subpar game vs Arizona and the players had no clue on how to step up because we heavily relied on Dana throughout the season. I would like to see us play key moments in every game where we learn to play without HVL on the floor. Those moments will come and we should be prepared for those moments.
If you are a fan of this team and not a fan of HVL, then something’s wrong with your fandome with the fire and mental toughness she brings to the team. Sometimes its good to come out, reset and get a feel of the game if that night is just not your night. Then go back in and make the correct adjustments to your game. That’s all that is being stated…..
We could have learned something two years ago when Dana was having a subpar game vs Arizona and the players had no clue on how to step up because we heavily relied on Dana throughout the season. I would like to see us play key moments in every game where we learn to play without HVL on the floor. Those moments will come and we should be prepared for those moments.
Well stated. I, like I have stated before, think HVL is fantastic. That doesn’t mean she is beyond any criticism. She is not perfect (nor does anyone expect she should be). Yet, we all expect her to near perfect because of what she has done! Many have made similar comments, when necessary, re: Lamar Jackson, Russ Smith, Shoni Schimmel, etc.
Again, nobody else is playing 36 min a game. So their players already come out for whatever reason that coach chooses to sit them a few minutes per half.
FLAV: I assume you are referring to just UL when stating “no one else is playing 36 minutes a game”, as that is correct. However, there is a pattern where most of the other top teams only have “the one go to leader” playing that many minutes. Bardman pointed out accurately that both South Carolina and Stanford do not have one player who is on the floor that much, but in both instances their “go to players” are the “BIGs” who are in the post. Physically it is far more challenging for the bigs to play as many minutes as the smaller ones. Olivia Cochran is an example of getting winded sooner than other starters.
UL’s ACC competition are doing the exact same thing Jeff Walz is doing …… keeping their floor leaders on the floor as much as possible. Syracuse kept Hyman on the floor almost 38 minutes, and it was evident that not only does she provide the most scoring, she makes the rest of the team more effective. Same with Olivia Miles for ND; she seldom gets a break, as the Irish depend on her being on the court.
It is not necessarily the point guard, but rather the player who is recognized by her teammates and the coach as the one who handles the ball the most in those half court offensive sets.
I believe Jeff’s plan can best be exemplified by watching how much improvement we see with Carr as this season progresses. The relationship between HVL and Carr on the court is clearly resulting in improved performance by both players and this team‘s success.
Judging from Jeff’s post game comments, he is trying to get Jones to that same comfort level with HVL that seems to be working with Carr.
UL’s ACC competition are doing the exact same thing Jeff Walz is doing …… keeping their floor leaders on the floor as much as possible. Syracuse kept Hyman on the floor almost 38 minutes, and it was evident that not only does she provide the most scoring, she makes the rest of the team more effective. Same with Olivia Miles for ND; she seldom gets a break, as the Irish depend on her being on the court.
It is not necessarily the point guard, but rather the player who is recognized by her teammates and the coach as the one who handles the ball the most in those half court offensive sets.
I believe Jeff’s plan can best be exemplified by watching how much improvement we see with Carr as this season progresses. The relationship between HVL and Carr on the court is clearly resulting in improved performance by both players and this team‘s success.
Judging from Jeff’s post game comments, he is trying to get Jones to that same comfort level with HVL that seems to be working with Carr.
2330 your a good poster, been around this message board along time, and normally your on point, but as far as minutes played, what HVL is doing is not the norm. Now, as teams move into conference play, you will start to see some of the star players extend minutes in games. We are all fans of our beloved Cardinals so this is the last I speak of this topic.
Here’s the facts. Out of the top 100 players in the NCAA in minutes played, I’m going to list the players from the Top 25 teams as well players from teams receiving votes. That’s 35 teams:
3. C. Whitson - MTSU. 38.08
26. H. Van Lith - Lou. 35.96
45. J. Gregory - MTSU. 35.14
53. L. Jansen - Creighton. 35.04
65. S. Puiss. - S. Florida. 34.73
89. N. Muhl - UConn. 34.28.
(Only 6 players made the list from the 35 teams)
Source: NCAA Statistics as of Dec 30th.
I’m actually surprised by this, in my initial arguments I was only looked at S.Carolina, Stanford, Ohio St and the ACC teams. I didn’t realize nobody in the top 25 other than Creighton has a player playing those minutes. When you get down to around 33,32 minutes is when you start to see Top 25 names.
“The other teams are doing it” argument is put to rest. Apparently nobody is playing those minutes consistently when you hit that 35 minute mark period.
Here’s the facts. Out of the top 100 players in the NCAA in minutes played, I’m going to list the players from the Top 25 teams as well players from teams receiving votes. That’s 35 teams:
3. C. Whitson - MTSU. 38.08
26. H. Van Lith - Lou. 35.96
45. J. Gregory - MTSU. 35.14
53. L. Jansen - Creighton. 35.04
65. S. Puiss. - S. Florida. 34.73
89. N. Muhl - UConn. 34.28.
(Only 6 players made the list from the 35 teams)
Source: NCAA Statistics as of Dec 30th.
I’m actually surprised by this, in my initial arguments I was only looked at S.Carolina, Stanford, Ohio St and the ACC teams. I didn’t realize nobody in the top 25 other than Creighton has a player playing those minutes. When you get down to around 33,32 minutes is when you start to see Top 25 names.
“The other teams are doing it” argument is put to rest. Apparently nobody is playing those minutes consistently when you hit that 35 minute mark period.
It is incredible that so many words are being used to argue over perhaps one minute difference between HVT's minutes and other top players. Has anyone looked at when timeouts and end of the various quarters are juxtaposed with substitutions in the many games? Coaches frequently use that with resting players. There is so much more than just the 35 minutes statistic involved with resting players. One minute difference !!! Give me a break!!
She started slow last year and came in like a gangbuster at the end of last season. I suspect she will do the same this year…. Needless to say, Coach will figure it out….
Dook will be a tough test on Sunday….
I would like someone in the media or whoever to ask CJW if HVL needs to play less minutes and see what his response is? Again if he is really yelling at some players and not at HVL, its because they're not running the right play or weren't in the right position. Yes, HVL makes more TO's but it is because she does handle the ball more and a lot of it is because of effort, not being physically tired. As one poster mentioned, watch usually the end of the 3rd quarter, Jeff tries to get HVL a break. What usually happens for those few minutes, is the offense looks a little lost and not sure who to turn to for scoring.
HVL played 40 minutes in the loss to Duke, but any suggestion that she needed a breather would be contradicted by her increased production at the end of both halves. The same 40 minutes and 24 point effort by Amoore at VT was required in the close win over UNC.
it is the head coach‘s decision as to who plays and when they come out. The Duke lead got up to 14 points at one time, and down to 2 later ……… at no time during that game was there a point where UL could afford to be without HVL in the game, particularly when Morgan Jones is not asserting herself anywhere close to where CJW expects her to be.
The post game comments from Jeff are most insightful about the chemistry on this team, as well as what can be expected if everyone on the roster is contributing up to their respective capabilities.
it is the head coach‘s decision as to who plays and when they come out. The Duke lead got up to 14 points at one time, and down to 2 later ……… at no time during that game was there a point where UL could afford to be without HVL in the game, particularly when Morgan Jones is not asserting herself anywhere close to where CJW expects her to be.
The post game comments from Jeff are most insightful about the chemistry on this team, as well as what can be expected if everyone on the roster is contributing up to their respective capabilities.
HVL has played more efficiently the last couple of games IMO.
She shouldn't have the green light to do what she wants, But one thing is certain...this team is only going to go as far as how well she performs. She has to make the other players better,
She shouldn't have the green light to do what she wants, But one thing is certain...this team is only going to go as far as how well she performs. She has to make the other players better,
CJW has alluded to the fact that Cochran, Dixon and Jones are not taking the shots when they have opportunities... Perhaps, maybe they should not rely on HVL as much.
There were plenty of opportunities to give her a breather. Balogun was ballin and sat many times. She might have hit those last two three’s had she had fresh legs. You can always sit a player for a few, even the GOAT M. Jordan came out at strategic times, usually right before the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters.
The offense needs to find ways of isolating our bigs for more opportunities. We are down a 3pt shooter from last year, technically down two considering HVL’s percentage so we have to take advantage of different opportunities to isolate Cochran and impose our will on some of these smaller teams.
The offense needs to find ways of isolating our bigs for more opportunities. We are down a 3pt shooter from last year, technically down two considering HVL’s percentage so we have to take advantage of different opportunities to isolate Cochran and impose our will on some of these smaller teams.
See I don’t get your argument because the players we do rest come in and don’t score anymore points from being rested. If we took HVL out of that game we probably would have been so far far behind we would have lost by 20. She was the only player on the team producing. So I guess to make a long story short she is more productive than anyone else on the team even though the other players are rested.
Plus you don't substitute a big for HVL...
I will go back to one of my original comparisons, Ellis played 40 mins. Now if you want to talk about a player that needs to sit some minutes, I would agree with that. You have other players to replace Ellis, right now at least you don't have another player on the women's roster that brings what HVL does. You just don't.
You could easily run Kassa, Carr and Russell for 3 minutes a half, without losing much, improve your shooting and not miss the beat. You act like HVL is Angel…. Every team finds ways to rest their players unless that player is having an unbelievable game. This would be one of the few times you could have two snipers from 3pt range on each wing.
You keep saying HVL needs to rest it would make her more productive but she is already the most productive player on the team. She is the only player on the team who can create her shot if one is not there. Some of our players have a great offensive game if they have open uncontested shots. I listened to CJW and he said that a players playing time is factored in by how well they perform in practice.
Once in the game their playing time could increase or decrease by how they perform in all facets of the game. He said someone might come in and score 15 points but the rest of their game could suffer and negate those 15 points. He also said he judges playing time by how well the rest of the team is doing when certain players are in the game. If someone comes in and we lose our lead or gain a lead that player could stay in or come out based on results.
Once in the game their playing time could increase or decrease by how they perform in all facets of the game. He said someone might come in and score 15 points but the rest of their game could suffer and negate those 15 points. He also said he judges playing time by how well the rest of the team is doing when certain players are in the game. If someone comes in and we lose our lead or gain a lead that player could stay in or come out based on results.
You like stats don't you? Lets look at our 1st 3 conference games so far. Points and rebounds are averages and assists and TO's are totals.
HVL - 22.3 pts, 4.3 rebs, 11 total assists, 8 TO's
Chris Carr - 8.7 pts, 1.0 reb, 7 total assists, 9 TO's
Russell - 5.3 pts, 3.7 rebs, 4 total assists, 6 TO's
Casa Robinson - 2.0 pts (one game), 4 assists, 4 TO's
Not really fair to compare Casa because she's only played in one game in the last month, but that also means she needs to get back into playing shape. She usually doesn't score that much anyway, although she does bring alot of defense and can handle the ball. I wish she would shoot more but so far she just doesn't.
So basically you could replace HVL with all 3 players (except you would have double amount of turnovers) and they wouldn't produce what she does.
Without losing much... doesn't hold water.
You can pick and choose what stats to use but the fact remains, she leads the team in turnovers so I’m not sure how you factor in that turnovers would increase, and she shoots 22% from 3pt range…. Those numbers may improve with fresh legs, who knows. Now, come 4th quarter that’s been her time, I wouldn’t rest her a minute at that point considering the way she ends games and had been deadly from the mid range. Her 3pt % may increase if she had some fresh legs towards the end of games. I don’t know, you seem determined to prove your point.
Similar threads
