The MYTH that UK is "closer" to U of L after last year's game

[Bill Derington]

IIRC, LPT never had an attrition issue WHILE Joker was there. Stupes ran off a lot of his predecessor's guys.

Kinda like when Krags came in behind Petrino the first time. We were led to believe that was Petrino's fault.

If I have to spell it out for ya, that's not a promising analogy for LPT.

LPT Football: Crazy the way that stuff works...

There were a lot of bad apples and to be honest players that had no business at a D1 school when Stoops got there.
He made changes as he saw fit.
And whether you want to admit it or not Kragthorpe did have to clean house after Petrino.
I'm not saying Kragthorpe would've succeeded , but Petrino brought in some questionable players then.
Now that Louisville is in the ACC you don't have to go that route any longer.

 

[zipp]

...And whether you want to admit it or not Kragthorpe did have to clean house after Petrino. I'm not saying Kragthorpe would've succeeded , but Petrino brought in some questionable players then.Now that Louisville is in the ACC you don't have to go that route any longer.

You don't know what you're talking about. Petrino had kids here that he can handle. Just like Strong did. A weak-handed coach like Krags was in over his head with that roster of guys. We were told otherwise during the house cleaning, but we now know that to be the truth.

It's always easy to throw the prior guy under the bus. At places like LPT, it's a well practiced art.

LPT Football: Well at least something we do is good...

 

[mwatson61]

You don't know what you're talking about. Petrino had kids here that he can handle. Just like Strong did. A weak-handed coach like Krags was in over his head with that roster of guys. We were told otherwise during the house cleaning, but we now know that to be the truth.

It's always easy to throw the prior guy under the bus. At places like LPT, it's a well practiced art.

LPT Football: Well at least something we do is good...

And those are the facts. Paul Petrino had his foot on those kids throats. They were going to tow the line or be gone. Kragthorpe had no idea how to handle that kind of athlete. He thought daily prayer meetings would get it done.

 

[Global Havok]

IIRC, LPT never had an attrition issue WHILE Joker was there. Stupes ran off a lot of his predecessor's guys.

Kinda like when Krags came in behind Petrino the first time. We were led to believe that was Petrino's fault.

If I have to spell it out for ya, that's not a promising analogy for LPT.

LPT Football: Crazy the way that stuff works...

While you are correct that there was attrition after Joker was fired and Stoops was hired, you are absolutely incorrect that there wasn't an issue with attrition while Joker was coach.

Below is an excerpt from an article that was a part of a series detailing the UK football teams from 09-12. Joker was fired in early November of 2012. This excerpt is taken from an article written in July of 2012. Keep in mind these numbers don't include players that never made it to campus.

"Kentucky's 2010 signing class has many similarities to its 2009 class. There were 27 signees in this class - one less than 2009 - and 11 players from each class are no longer on the team."

 

[zipp]

...you are absolutely incorrect that there wasn't an issue with attrition while Joker was coach.

Below is an excerpt from an article that was a part of a series detailing the UK football teams from 09-12. Joker was fired in early November of 2012. This excerpt is taken from an article written in July of 2012. Keep in mind these numbers don't include players that never made it to campus.

"Kentucky's 2010 signing class has many similarities to its 2009 class. There were 27 signees in this class - one less than 2009 - and 11 players from each class are no longer on the team."

And what is that proof of? That you sign more kids than will probably qualify. Petrino made a living out of doing that his first time here, and U of L always had a roster full of players. That's not proof that you're bringing in guys who don't belong in your program. When you're on the outside looking in, you have to take chances on kids that Alabama doesn't. Excuse Joker for trying to get the best players in a graveyard program.

BTW, the 2009 class was technically speaking under Pappaw Brooks. You know, the program savior.

LPT Football: We can always blame Pappaw if we have to...

 

[Global Havok]

And what is that proof of? That you sign more kids than will probably qualify. Petrino made a living out of doing that his first time here, and U of L always had a roster full of players. That's not proof that you're bringing in guys who don't belong in your program. When you're on the outside looking in, you have to take chances on kids that Alabama doesn't. Excuse Joker for trying to get the best players in a graveyard program.

BTW, the 2009 class was technically speaking under Pappaw Brooks. You know, the program savior.

LPT Football: We can always blame Pappaw if we have to...

First, you said there wasn't an issue with attrition WHILE Joker was coach. I was pointing out that you were wrong, and there was an issue with attrition while Joker was coach.

Second, UK rarely used grey shirts, and never got creative using blue shirts like Tennessee is known for using these days. You are only allotted so many a class, and only so many on the roster. I just provided you with an example of 22 players from just two classes that were no longer on the team at the start of the 12-13 season. The attrition continued further, albeit to a lesser degree, when Stoops was hired. Which was to be expected. Now, how do you think UK filled it's roster after those losses? Do you think the way the roster was filled in replacing those lost hurt UK's depth in Stoops' two seasons?

Finally, I didn't say that the 09 class was Joker's, just that 11 players were lost from that class under Joker. Most of those that left the team under Joker did so on their own accord, with no academic issues. I can list the players and the reasons for their individual departures if you'd like. Also, I specifically said that the numbers I gave didn't include players that never made it to campus. Players that never made it to campus includes most players that didn't qualify, so you can throw that reasoning out.

Joker was a terrible HC in every facet except play calling on offense, and even that is debatable. Your defense of the man in order to slam Stoops makes you appear blinded by your desire to achieve your goal.

Like I said earlier, carry on...

 

[Bill Derington]

You don't know what you're talking about. Petrino had kids here that he can handle. Just like Strong did. A weak-handed coach like Krags was in over his head with that roster of guys. We were told otherwise during the house cleaning, but we now know that to be the truth.

It's always easy to throw the prior guy under the bus. At places like LPT, it's a well practiced art.

LPT Football: Well at least something we do is good...

Ok Zipp, it wasn't a slam on Louisville. There were several kids Petrino took in that had been arrested and the. Got I trouble again at Louisville. Kragthorpe or Jurich decided they needed to clean up, and they did.
Now, Kragthorpe wasn't a good enough coach to recover after that.

 

[Steelers2012]

This long linked article is the best explanation I've read as to why Kragthorpe had so much trouble with the players that Petrino was able to keep in line. It's worth a read, if you want a really good look behind the scenes of the transition from Petrino to Kargthorpe.

http://www.wdrb.com/story/19625175/crawford-why-post-petrino-life-is-no-picnic

 

[zipp]

Roster attrition ain't an issue unless it causes you problems. For some like Petrino, it's simply a means to an end. 40% of the nations D1 kids in basketball don't make it through their sophomore seasons. 80% don't graduate. LPT basketball has made a living off of kids who don't stick around.

You indict Joker of something that's endemic with big time college athletics. My guess is that if he had been successful at LPT, none of this would be discussed. For all I know or recall, Krags had a better record at retaining players--look what a great job he did.

The biggest difference between Joker and Pappaw Brooks is the first guy had to play against Charlie Strong. And the other LPT guy, just before he lost his job playing against Petrino, got the break of his life when Krags was hired. That was the margin of difference. And one guy's a savior while the other guy's a dog.

LPT fans are among the best at writing revisionist history in just about any sport. If they want the glass to look half full, a guy like Joker gets thrown under the bus. Unfortunately, those of us who have been around know better.

LPT Football: There's a lot of bodies under our bus...

 

[CardfbFanatic06]

Wow I have never read that story. Very interesting!

 

[Bill Derington]

Zipp, Im not sure what angle you're playing here with Joker, but if you're insenuating he got fired because he couldn't beat Louisville that's wrong. He lost his job because his teams were awful, and there was no improvement.
He appeared to lack the drive or attitude to motivate his team. I don't know if that's the case, but it appeared that way.
There was a definite drop off in team play after Brooks left.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make unless you're saying the UK teams now are no different than when Joker was there.

 

[zipp]

Basically, you've got it... Until it was board the lifeboats in Joker's final year, the margin of difference between him and Pappaw was about one game a year. And U of L was that game esp. since one LPT coach went up against quite possibly the worst U of L coach in history while the other went up against one of the best.

Joker was a scapegoat, pure and simple. Had Petrino been here longer, Pappaw would have gone down in flames--he was that close.

LPT Football: Not in our version of history...

 

[SpotHogCard]

Basically, you've got it... Until it was board the lifeboats in Joker's final year, the margin of difference between him and Pappaw was about one game a year. And U of L was that game esp. since one LPT coach went up against quite possibly the worst U of L coach in history while the other went up against one of the best.

Joker was a scapegoat, pure and simple. Had Petrino been here longer, Pappaw would have gone down in flames--he was that close.

LPT Football: Not in our version of history...

Zipp,

We can't forget that Mitch B and many fans were vehemently defending Joker in his last year. "Microwave fans" comments by the sUcKs AD, Joker, was going to be retained if not for pressure from the fans. Ahhhh the memories of ice cream trucks and pool parties...... Just what the sUcKs AD wanted, minimal marketing campaigns, sloganeering to rouse the mouth breathing sUcKs fans into buying tickets, then count the cash that was fleeced from the sUcKs fanbase. low budget high profit. Old Mitchy really knows how to "Move the needle"

 

[Bill Derington]

Zipp,

We can't forget that Mitch B and many fans were vehemently defending Joker in his last year. "Microwave fans" comments by the sUcKs AD, Joker, was going to be retained if not for pressure from the fans. Ahhhh the memories of ice cream trucks and pool parties...... Just what the sUcKs AD wanted, minimal marketing campaigns, sloganeering to rouse the mouth breathing sUcKs fans into buying tickets, then count the cash that was fleeced from the sUcKs fanbase. low budget high profit. Old Mitchy really knows how to "Move the needle"

I disagree wholeheartedly. Brooks laid the foundation for UK to get to bowl games consistently, which Joker immediately pissed away.

I know we're going to see things differently, it's what fans do, but there is no way you can legitimately state Joker put the same type of team on the field As Brooks.

What exactly are you implying Joker was a scapegoat for? He was the head coach. The team had obviously taken a step back, and was unraveling.

 

[Bill Derington]

Zipp,

We can't forget that Mitch B and many fans were vehemently defending Joker in his last year. "Microwave fans" comments by the sUcKs AD, Joker, was going to be retained if not for pressure from the fans. Ahhhh the memories of ice cream trucks and pool parties...... Just what the sUcKs AD wanted, minimal marketing campaigns, sloganeering to rouse the mouth breathing sUcKs fans into buying tickets, then count the cash that was fleeced from the sUcKs fanbase. low budget high profit. Old Mitchy really knows how to "Move the needle"

I'd say he's done a pretty good job since then.
Hired and retained what appears to be a good staff. Invested money in the football program and picked up AD of the year.

 

[SpotHogCard]

Zipp,

We can't forget that Mitch B and many fans were vehemently defending Joker in his last year. "Microwave fans" comments by the sUcKs AD, Joker, was going to be retained if not for pressure from the fans. Ahhhh the memories of ice cream trucks and pool parties...... Just what the sUcKs AD wanted, minimal marketing campaigns, sloganeering to rouse the mouth breathing sUcKs fans into buying tickets, then count the cash that was fleeced from the sUcKs fanbase. low budget high profit. Old Mitchy really knows how to "Move the needle"

I'd say he's done a pretty good job since then.
Hired and retained what appears to be a good staff. Invested money in the football program and picked up AD of the year.

This is evidence that I am 100% CORRECT in the last statement of my post.

 

[Bill Derington]

How so? The fans quit coming to the games at the end of Jokers run.

The administration listened and made a move. I don't know how it is in Louisville, but the AD doesn't contact me and ask what I think they should do.

Of course Barnhart was trying to placate the fsnbase. He was trying to take heat off of Joker to give him time to get things righted. Probably had to do with friendship, ego and understanding the landscape of the situation.

Jurich gave Kragthorpe 4 years when it was obvious he'd lost the fans earlier.

AD's try to give their guys time to workout.

 

[SpotHogCard]

How so? The fans quit coming to the games at the end of Jokers run.

The administration listened and made a move. I don't know how it is in Louisville, but the AD doesn't contact me and ask what I think they should do.

Of course Barnhart was trying to placate the fsnbase. He was trying to take heat off of Joker to give him time to get things righted. Probably had to do with friendship, ego and understanding the landscape of the situation.

Jurich gave Kragthorpe 4 years when it was obvious he'd lost the fans earlier.

AD's try to give their guys time to workout.

You are right and you should run out and buy 3 sets of season tickets to show your support. I happen to know the person who started the "If you renew, your not true blue" slogan. That person is a UL fan now.

 

[American Male]

But, everywhere he's been as a DC his teams have had a major improvement in year three.

Is that the SAME Defense that he had at Florida when Louisville KICKED their @$$ in the Sugar Bowl!!!

Stoops is POOP, and in Bobby's Second Year and Second Stint at Louisville you're "little boy blue program" will get an @$$KICKING in LESSINGTON...AGAIN...JUST like BP's first time here!!!

SUCK has two winnable games...Charlotte and EKU...ULL and Vandy will give you #ELL...And you're not beating Florida, USCe at Columbia (The Old Ball Coach WON'T make the MISTAKES he made last year), Mississippi St., Missouri, Tennessee or Louisville...Your fans that think otherwise WILL be VERY DISAPPOINTED after week 5-6!!!

 

[SpotHogCard]

Is that the SAME Defense that he had at Florida when Louisville KICKED their @$$ in the Sugar Bowl!!!

Stoops is POOP, and in Bobby's Second Year and Second Stint at Louisville you're "little boy blue program" will get an @$$KICKING in LESSINGTON...AGAIN...JUST like BP's first time here!!!

SUCK has two winnable games...Charlotte and EKU...ULL and Vandy will give you #ELL...And you're not beating Florida, USCe at Columbia (The Old Ball Coach WON'T make the MISTAKES he made last year), Mississippi St., Missouri, Tennessee or Louisville...Your fans that think otherwise WILL be VERY DISAPPOINTED after week 5-6!!!

Yep,

I believe sUcK will be mathematically eliminated from a bowl before they play us.

 

[Steelers2012]

Is that the SAME Defense that he had at Florida when Louisville KICKED their @$$ in the Sugar Bowl!!!

Stoops is POOP, and in Bobby's Second Year and Second Stint at Louisville you're "little boy blue program" will get an @$$KICKING in LESSINGTON...AGAIN...JUST like BP's first time here!!!

SUCK has two winnable games...Charlotte and EKU...ULL and Vandy will give you #ELL...And you're not beating Florida, USCe at Columbia (The Old Ball Coach WON'T make the MISTAKES he made last year), Mississippi St., Missouri, Tennessee or Louisville...Your fans that think otherwise WILL be VERY DISAPPOINTED after week 5-6!!!

I don't believe Mark Stoops ever coached at Florida. Florida State, USF, and Miami, yes; Florida, no.

 

[Bill Derington]

Stoops never coached at Florida.

I think UK can win 6 games this year, with a possible 7. A lot of that has to do with the schedule, and I'm taking a big leap of faith Towles can get it together between the ears. He's got all the physical tools to be a good one, but the good ones don't get the deer in headlights look, they make plays.

 

[American Male]

I don't believe Mark Stoops ever coached at Florida. Florida State, USF, and Miami, yes; Florida, no.

I Stand Corrected...HOWEVER, WE did to Florida what POOPS Defense at FSU could NOT do to them at HOME...We KICKED Florida's @$$!!!

 

[The Public Enemy]

Is that the SAME Defense that he had at Florida when Louisville KICKED their @$$ in the Sugar Bowl!!!

Stoops is POOP, and in Bobby's Second Year and Second Stint at Louisville you're "little boy blue program" will get an @$$KICKING in LESSINGTON...AGAIN...JUST like BP's first time here!!!

SUCK has two winnable games...Charlotte and EKU...ULL and Vandy will give you #ELL...And you're not beating Florida, USCe at Columbia (The Old Ball Coach WON'T make the MISTAKES he made last year), Mississippi St., Missouri, Tennessee or Louisville...Your fans that think otherwise WILL be VERY DISAPPOINTED after week 5-6!!!

The Defensive Coordinator for Florida was Dan Quinn....the same DC that help Build the Legion of Boom in Seattle and now is the HC of the Atlanta Falcons.

Myself I see them as a 5-7 Team again in 2015.

 

[UKRob 73]

You do know that sUcKs first six wins in the series were against a gym team Louisville put together...NOT an Official Team like sUcK had...And that the first 10+ games were all played at sUcK...Correct!?!?!?

In the MODERN Series...You do UNDERSTAND what MODERN Means...Correct...Louisville leads 13-8...Thus, sUcK has beaten an OFFICIAL Louisville Football Team...NOT a Gym Team...Eight times, while Louisville has BEATEN an OFFICIAL sUcK Team 13 Times...You do UNDERSTAND that...CORRECT...I HIGHLY Doubt it!!!

You could have saved all the excuses and just said NO.

 

[American Male]

You could have saved all the excuses and just said NO.

When did FACTS become excuses?!?!?

 

[zipp]

...What exactly are you implying Joker was a scapegoat for? He was the head coach. The team had obviously taken a step back, and was unraveling.

Subtracting the U of L games from results, Joker's teams the first two years of his tenure as head coach went 10-13, and they scored 556 points and yielded 625. That's an average score per game of 24-27. The corresponding numbers for Pappaw Brooks his last two years were 12-12, 575 points vs. 545 points, and average per game results of 24-23.

The fans decided not to support Joker in year three, and everything imploded. But his results prior to that time were in line with Pappaw's. For some reason, those results were good enough for one guy but not good enough for the other. That's what I mean by "scapegoat".

LPT Football: Scapegoat Hall of Fame...

 

[CardFan1130]

You could have saved all the excuses and just said NO.

Stick to slum-lording Robert

 

[catfanlondon]

The results from Brooks to Joker weren't close. Yea the number if games won weren't greatly different but Jokers last year the teams weren't even competitive. We were struggling to win games that should have had large margins. We were being steamroller by nearly everyone and the tears looked competely inept in every possible way. Idk if Stoops will be successful but I think he has a great chance. His teams play hard. Minus the LSU game they look prepared and give their self a change to win. I'm not here to poke the other team. I think both programs are gonna have a good season. I also think UK will be better than alot of people think. It's still a long time until the UK/UL game, and alot can change. We will just have to wait and see how it plays out

 

[CardFan1130]

His teams play hard. Minus the LSU game they look prepared and give their self a change to win.

Oh really? You see the UGa and Tenn. games? The "play hard" thing is a myth. The rolled over in a number of games. Granted they haven't quit at halftime of a game.....yet.

Btw, Joker played the state's 2nd best program, WKU, closer than Stoops managed. His teams have looked prepared in a handful of games

 

[zipp]

The results from Brooks to Joker weren't close. Yea the number if games won weren't greatly different but Jokers last year the teams weren't even competitive...

I just said it imploded in the final year. But it was the fans and administration that imploded it. People stopped showing up for games, the LPT administration went silent, and player apathy set in.

Joker's results prior to that were not much different from Pappaw's, except that he was playing against a better U of L team. The two coaches' margin of difference was that slim.

LPT ran off Joker just like they ran off Tubby. Striking similarities.

LPT Football: Please don't go there...

 

[Senore2006]

I just said it imploded in the final year. But it was the fans and administration that imploded it. People stopped showing up for games, the LPT administration went silent, and player apathy set in.

Joker's results prior to that were not much different from Pappaw's, except that he was playing against a better U of L team. The two coaches' margin of difference was that slim.

LPT ran off Joker just like they ran off Tubby. Striking similarities.

LPT Football: Please don't go there...

There is this huge amount of "Faith" in the UK mindset, looking hard for reasons to claim some semblance of relevance in a sport they historically suck at. Reading tea leaves such as minute point superiority in recruiting while ignoring the 4 and 5 star transfers UofL routinely brings in is one of these. Faith in the head coach who performed the mighty task of getting to the absolute verge of Bowl Eligibility (the summa cum laude of UK achievement), only to lose 6 straight ball games - every game left, lol - only to fall pathetically short of earning a trip to the Toilet Bowl.

It could very well be that the product on the field is improving. But from what to what, exactly? To a team good enough to challenge Louisville - the big turd on their windshield? Their dreams consist of winning 7-8 games in a season. I can't see it, I'm afraid. And then, of course, their big QB hopes will graduate this season - so what then? A Kentucky Class 2 All Stater? For a buff recruiter, Stoops has about 5 fewer QBs in camp than Petrino. UK fans should wonder about a former DC who becomes the head coach of a program who requires gimmick offenses to compete.

 

[CardFan1130]

Bill your football knowledge is only slightly better than the ignorance you're spewing over Cats Pause about businesses being able to discriminate in who they serve to. Did you sleep thru Civics in middle school?

 

[catfanlondon]

Tubby was an entirely different story. A program with the history of UK, Duke, UL, will not put up with year after year of sweet 16 losses. Tubby would occasionally overachiever and get to the Elite 8 but he never had any tourney success after his first year. Look at Minnesota, they have NO history and yet their fans couldn't stand winning 20-22 games per year aNd being bounced from the tourney by the sweet 16.

 

[zipp]

Tubby was an entirely different story. A program with the history of UK, Duke, UL, will not put up with year after year of sweet 16 losses. Tubby would occasionally overachiever and get to the Elite 8 but he never had any tourney success after his first year...

That's LPT's biggest problem with other sports besides basketball--lower standards. Truth be told, Tubby didn't do a lot worse with FAR less talent than Pitino Lite is doing today.

But if you wanna deep dive basketball topics during the football preseason, we have a separate message board for that. Most LPT fans spend their time there for obvious reasons.

LPT Football: Stepchildren...

 

[Bill Derington]

Bill your football knowledge is only slightly better than the ignorance you're spewing over Cats Pause about businesses being able to discriminate in who they serve to. Did you sleep thru Civics in middle school?

Hahaha, was that necessary? Do you feel better now?

 

[Bill Derington]

I just said it imploded in the final year. But it was the fans and administration that imploded it. People stopped showing up for games, the LPT administration went silent, and player apathy set in.

Joker's results prior to that were not much different from Pappaw's, except that he was playing against a better U of L team. The two coaches' margin of difference was that slim.

LPT ran off Joker just like they ran off Tubby. Striking similarities.

LPT Football: Please don't go there...

Zipp, that's absurd and you know it. UK went from going to bowls, to winning 2 games. The one bowl game they did get into under Joker they were thoroughly beaten by a team that had just lost its head coach.
Recruiting was going in the tank, and he had lost the fans. Why try to find some other reason than what actually happened?

 

[Bill Derington]

Bill your football knowledge is only slightly better than the ignorance you're spewing over Cats Pause about businesses being able to discriminate in who they serve to. Did you sleep thru Civics in middle school?

Did you actually read my post, or just automatically jump to a conclusion?

 

[CardFan1130]

Did you actually read my post, or just automatically jump to a conclusion?

Read your post.

 

[CardFan1130]

Hahaha, was that necessary?

Yes