No penalty for UNC
- Thread starter Big_Tasty_Muffin
- Start date
I was adamant that UofL was wasting money on Smrt and should have fought the NCAA just as UNC did. So going forward programs can do whatever they want so long as the general student population is included at some level.
If you want some damning evidence on Jurich, then consider his unyielding allegiance to the "Million Dollar Man" Chuck Smrt.
SMH.
If you want some damning evidence on Jurich, then consider his unyielding allegiance to the "Million Dollar Man" Chuck Smrt.
SMH.
Built a different mousetrap.
Other schools it's one and done.
UNC is four and forget the degree.
NCAA bought this one too.
Other schools it's one and done.
UNC is four and forget the degree.
NCAA bought this one too.
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So...if we can prove non-athletes also partook of the strippers...we're good? I'll fall on that sword and claim I was a participant...but not with any of those ladies shown in KP's book. If I'm gonna lie, it will be about a super hot chick. 
Not really surprised by this. The NCAA will probably just give a doubly harsh punishment to UofL to "make up" for this and to show they still have teeth.
UK fan here. But I believe any fan should wholeheartedly support their school. But if I'm a Louisville fan, I would be livid with what was just announced. This is an embarrassment to collegiate sports across the board.
So yeah, u guys had an assistant hire a stripper. But was the stripper available to anyone who walked in the room? Apparently a good defense...
So yeah, u guys had an assistant hire a stripper. But was the stripper available to anyone who walked in the room? Apparently a good defense...
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Die hard UK fan here. No love lost for the Cards, but I hope they bring Jurich back just so somebody with some teeth can sue the be'Jesus out of the NCAA. You can't tell me that what UL did is more detrimental to the term "student athlete" than what UNC just walked away from with not so much as a scratch.
You could see this one coming from a mile away. The NCAA can't regulate this billion dollar industry. The reality is it is too big, complex and dynamic to regulate. When you are breaking down the definition of an extra benefit to determine a Universities fate you have problems.
October 13, 2017 10:00am
North Carolina avoids major sanctions in academic fraud case
North Carolina avoided major sanctions after the NCAA could not conclude the school violated academic rules when it made available deficient Department of African and Afro-American Studies "paper courses" to the general student body, including student-athletes.
NCAA vs. North Carolina: How we got to this point
The NCAA wants to penalize North Carolina over academic matters. UNC says the NCAA has no jurisdiction. The long saga will move to its latest chapter when the NCAA announces its final ruling on Friday. Here's a full rundown of how we got here.
The NCAA said in a release Friday the Committee on Infractions panel found two violations in this case: former department chairman Julius Nyang'oro and retired office administrator Deborah Crowder failed to cooperate during the investigation. The only sanction connected with the probe is a five-year show cause for Nyang'oro lasting until Oct. 12, 2022. Crowder was not punished, but the NCAA says it is making note of her initial lack of cooperation.
"While student-athletes likely benefited from the so-called 'paper courses' offered by North Carolina, the information available in the record did not establish that the courses were solely created, offered and maintained as an orchestrated effort to benefit student-athletes," said Greg Sankey, the panel's chief hearing officer and commissioner of the Southeastern Conference, in the release. "The panel is troubled by the university's shifting positions about whether academic fraud occurred on its campus and the credibility of the Cadwalader report, which it distanced itself from after initially supporting the findings. However, NCAA policy is clear. The NCAA defers to its member schools to determine whether academic fraud occurred and, ultimately, the panel is bound to making decisions within the rules set by the membership."
The investigation centered on a system in which a significant percentage of student-athletes took classes that had academic irregularities -- and whether that resulted in those athletes receiving an impermissible benefit. The classes were taken by more than 3,100 students -- nearly half of them athletes -- from 1993 to 2011. However, the investigation was focused from 2002-11.
The independent study-style courses came in the Department of African and Afro-American Studies and often required no attendance, as well as grade changes, forged faculty signatures and just one paper at the conclusion of the semester. The athletes were reportedly guided into the classes to help them remain academically eligible.
North Carolina has maintained that the NCAA has no jurisdiction over this academic matter, and has denied that student-athletes received impermissible benefits due to the fact that the classes in question were offered to the entire student body.
Only two people at North Carolina ultimately received NCAA sanctions in the multi-year academic case. Former department chairman Julius Nyang'oro and retired office administrator Deborah Crowder were charged with refusing to cooperate with the NCAA probe. Peyton Williams/UNC via Getty Images
The panel also did not conclude, based on the record before it, that extra benefits were provided to student-athletes. The panel noted the former secretary credibly explained during the hearing that she treated all students the same.
"While student-athletes likely benefited from the courses, so did the general student body," said Sankey. "Additionally, the record did not establish that the university created and offered the courses as part of a systemic effort to benefit only student-athletes."
The Tar Heels won a pair of national titles within the span -- in 2005 and 2009. North Carolina also won a national championship this past season, but that title was never in question.
The NCAA, which had investigated the football program in 2010, re-opened a new investigation in June of 2014 and issued the first notice of allegations in May of 2015 -- which included a lack of institutional control and also offering impermissible benefits to athletes. There was a second NOA in April of 2016 in which there was still a lack of institutional control, but no mention of men's basketball or football and also no impermissible benefits charge.
Sankey asked the enforcement staff to look at new information in November of 2016 -- and a third notice of allegations in December of 2016 included both men's basketball and football once again and had UNC facing five top-level charges -- including a lack of institutional control and the initial extra benefit charge. Two other charges pertained to Nyang'oro and Crowder failing to cooperate with the NCAA enforcement staff requests -- violating the NCAA principles of ethical conduct. The final one involved an academic counselor providing extra benefits by way of impermissible academic assistance and special arrangements to women's basketball players from 2003 to 2010.
North Carolina had a two-day hearing in mid-April in Nashville in front of the Committee of Infractions. Men's basketball coach Roy Williams, women's basketball coach Sylvia Hatchell and football coach Larry Fedora, athletic director Bubba Cunningham and chancellor Carol Folt were all in attendance.
The NCAA began investigating the North Carolina football program back in June 2010 for impermissible benefits and academic fraud under former coach Butch Davis. The football program received a one-year postseason ban, lost 15 scholarships over a three-year period and also was forced to vacate 15 wins in March of 2012. The school conducted an internal faculty investigation in which it was found that there were issues with 54 classes in the Department of African and Afro-American Studies taught from 2007 to 2011. There was then another review from former North Carolina Gov. Jim Martin who found the sham classes went back to 1997.
North Carolina hired Kenneth Wainstein in February of 2014 to work on an independent investigation into the scandal. It found that former African studies department chairman Nyang'oro and Crowder created bogus classes and enrolled student-athletes to help them remain eligible over a span from 1993 to 2011. Crowder left the university in 2009.
North Carolina avoids major sanctions in academic fraud case
North Carolina avoided major sanctions after the NCAA could not conclude the school violated academic rules when it made available deficient Department of African and Afro-American Studies "paper courses" to the general student body, including student-athletes.
NCAA vs. North Carolina: How we got to this point
The NCAA wants to penalize North Carolina over academic matters. UNC says the NCAA has no jurisdiction. The long saga will move to its latest chapter when the NCAA announces its final ruling on Friday. Here's a full rundown of how we got here.
The NCAA said in a release Friday the Committee on Infractions panel found two violations in this case: former department chairman Julius Nyang'oro and retired office administrator Deborah Crowder failed to cooperate during the investigation. The only sanction connected with the probe is a five-year show cause for Nyang'oro lasting until Oct. 12, 2022. Crowder was not punished, but the NCAA says it is making note of her initial lack of cooperation.
"While student-athletes likely benefited from the so-called 'paper courses' offered by North Carolina, the information available in the record did not establish that the courses were solely created, offered and maintained as an orchestrated effort to benefit student-athletes," said Greg Sankey, the panel's chief hearing officer and commissioner of the Southeastern Conference, in the release. "The panel is troubled by the university's shifting positions about whether academic fraud occurred on its campus and the credibility of the Cadwalader report, which it distanced itself from after initially supporting the findings. However, NCAA policy is clear. The NCAA defers to its member schools to determine whether academic fraud occurred and, ultimately, the panel is bound to making decisions within the rules set by the membership."
The investigation centered on a system in which a significant percentage of student-athletes took classes that had academic irregularities -- and whether that resulted in those athletes receiving an impermissible benefit. The classes were taken by more than 3,100 students -- nearly half of them athletes -- from 1993 to 2011. However, the investigation was focused from 2002-11.
The independent study-style courses came in the Department of African and Afro-American Studies and often required no attendance, as well as grade changes, forged faculty signatures and just one paper at the conclusion of the semester. The athletes were reportedly guided into the classes to help them remain academically eligible.
North Carolina has maintained that the NCAA has no jurisdiction over this academic matter, and has denied that student-athletes received impermissible benefits due to the fact that the classes in question were offered to the entire student body.
Only two people at North Carolina ultimately received NCAA sanctions in the multi-year academic case. Former department chairman Julius Nyang'oro and retired office administrator Deborah Crowder were charged with refusing to cooperate with the NCAA probe. Peyton Williams/UNC via Getty Images
The panel also did not conclude, based on the record before it, that extra benefits were provided to student-athletes. The panel noted the former secretary credibly explained during the hearing that she treated all students the same.
"While student-athletes likely benefited from the courses, so did the general student body," said Sankey. "Additionally, the record did not establish that the university created and offered the courses as part of a systemic effort to benefit only student-athletes."
The Tar Heels won a pair of national titles within the span -- in 2005 and 2009. North Carolina also won a national championship this past season, but that title was never in question.
The NCAA, which had investigated the football program in 2010, re-opened a new investigation in June of 2014 and issued the first notice of allegations in May of 2015 -- which included a lack of institutional control and also offering impermissible benefits to athletes. There was a second NOA in April of 2016 in which there was still a lack of institutional control, but no mention of men's basketball or football and also no impermissible benefits charge.
Sankey asked the enforcement staff to look at new information in November of 2016 -- and a third notice of allegations in December of 2016 included both men's basketball and football once again and had UNC facing five top-level charges -- including a lack of institutional control and the initial extra benefit charge. Two other charges pertained to Nyang'oro and Crowder failing to cooperate with the NCAA enforcement staff requests -- violating the NCAA principles of ethical conduct. The final one involved an academic counselor providing extra benefits by way of impermissible academic assistance and special arrangements to women's basketball players from 2003 to 2010.
North Carolina had a two-day hearing in mid-April in Nashville in front of the Committee of Infractions. Men's basketball coach Roy Williams, women's basketball coach Sylvia Hatchell and football coach Larry Fedora, athletic director Bubba Cunningham and chancellor Carol Folt were all in attendance.
The NCAA began investigating the North Carolina football program back in June 2010 for impermissible benefits and academic fraud under former coach Butch Davis. The football program received a one-year postseason ban, lost 15 scholarships over a three-year period and also was forced to vacate 15 wins in March of 2012. The school conducted an internal faculty investigation in which it was found that there were issues with 54 classes in the Department of African and Afro-American Studies taught from 2007 to 2011. There was then another review from former North Carolina Gov. Jim Martin who found the sham classes went back to 1997.
North Carolina hired Kenneth Wainstein in February of 2014 to work on an independent investigation into the scandal. It found that former African studies department chairman Nyang'oro and Crowder created bogus classes and enrolled student-athletes to help them remain eligible over a span from 1993 to 2011. Crowder left the university in 2009.
They don't. They haven't.
Let's be honest for once.
Every ten years or so, the NCAA will get ONE major school. USC. Alabama. Kentucky basketball. Ohio State.
Louisville appears to be that once in a decade school guys.
I believe now you will get hit WORSE.
Everyone else slides for another eight to ten years.
Then if the NCAA is around, they will flex.
Let's be honest for once.
Every ten years or so, the NCAA will get ONE major school. USC. Alabama. Kentucky basketball. Ohio State.
Louisville appears to be that once in a decade school guys.
I believe now you will get hit WORSE.
Everyone else slides for another eight to ten years.
Then if the NCAA is around, they will flex.
Surly there were a few regular students who participated somewhere in what went on at Louisville. That makes it okay apparently
If the NCAA tells UofL to take down its 2012 & 2013 banners. TELL THEM TO GO TO HELL!!!So...if we can prove non-athletes also partook of the strippers...we're good? I'll fall on that sword and claim I was a participant...but not with any of those ladies shown in KP's book. If I'm gonna lie, it will be about a super hot chick.
Boys, coming from me this might sound odd, but time for Louisville to go to court.
The NCAA for all practical purposes vacated itself with the North Carolina ruling.
Not only allowing crib courses but recognizing fake degrees along with the one and gone stupidity...and then having the balls to announce a committee to monitor basketball and shoe companies?
Enough already.
Time for the power 5 schools to officially make their own system.
The NCAA for all practical purposes vacated itself with the North Carolina ruling.
Not only allowing crib courses but recognizing fake degrees along with the one and gone stupidity...and then having the balls to announce a committee to monitor basketball and shoe companies?
Enough already.
Time for the power 5 schools to officially make their own system.
The NCAA is a joke but that's normal when it comes to UNC. In NCAA eyes, UNC can do no wrong.
From here on, hang a banner as National Post High School Television Basketball Champion.
The word college needs to be forgotten Do the same for football.
Pay the kids whatever they are worth.
Call it age appropriate professional sports.
That's what the NCAA has admitted it is.
The word college needs to be forgotten Do the same for football.
Pay the kids whatever they are worth.
Call it age appropriate professional sports.
That's what the NCAA has admitted it is.
You guys (UofL) had a few whores in the dorm, big stinking deal. The NCAA tells you to forfeit wins, & take down banners. UNCheats for 2 decades had the worst academic scandal in the history of college athletics going on. And they get to keep their wins, they keep their banners. In other words. Just keep on keeping on if you're UNC. UofL needs to sue the hell out of the NCAA.
Man you have some serious issue with disliking Jurich. All the good that guy has done for our University and he made a decision based on what a lot of people thought was the right thing. And you have no way of knowing whether Ramsey pushed that agenda. And for the record you have no clue on how it would have turned out otherwise. Hindsight is alway 20/20. Although I think the UNC decision is BS there like comparing apples and oranges. We would have been screwed either way, our violations involved the sacred part of the NCAA and that’s recruiting.
What I can do is drive around campus and see the benefits of their time at UL. At no time in UL history (Ever) have we experienced that kind of growth academically and athletically. We will miss Jurich if he doesn’t return for his drive for success and yes his loyalty to UL. Which by the way is what many news media’s truly had an issue with.
UL isn’t the only University. How about CUSE, Penn ST, USC the list is long and distinguished. Let me clarify Penn St. although that was disgusting it was outside the realm of the NCAA. They admitted so much in the UNC findings.
Didn't Rashad Mccants go on TV and say he got grades for classes he did not attend and that tutors did his work for him? Would that no make him ineligible for the 2004-05 season and therefore their title should be vacated?
I mean that is CHEATING. If they want the defense that their classes were easy and thats not the NCAA's business...thats one thing...but to have a player openly say he cheated on his work is another thing.
I mean that is CHEATING. If they want the defense that their classes were easy and thats not the NCAA's business...thats one thing...but to have a player openly say he cheated on his work is another thing.
And for the record I think everyone would agree given this outcome UL should handle the NCAA much differently in the future. And if we don’t take them to court over our findings....we’ll we need different leadership. The NCAA has made themselves ripe for the picking.
I think the NCAA has proven it is a fraudulent, corrupt institution and by association has devalued all its past champions and future competitions.
Today's ruling and comments, coupled with the FBIs expose, should clearly light the fire to initiate a new sports governing body for the power 5 institutions. I would expect within a matter of a few years, and to correspond with expiring TV $$$ contracts, that a new organization will commence and oversee football and basketball teams assembled by power 5 universities who compete under a new set of rules/payouts.
It's over. The NCAA is a sham and is dying.
Today's ruling and comments, coupled with the FBIs expose, should clearly light the fire to initiate a new sports governing body for the power 5 institutions. I would expect within a matter of a few years, and to correspond with expiring TV $$$ contracts, that a new organization will commence and oversee football and basketball teams assembled by power 5 universities who compete under a new set of rules/payouts.
It's over. The NCAA is a sham and is dying.
I've always felt that our only hope is the financial aspect. Lets face it, Louisville Basketball is basically a Fortune 500 Company and brings in millions every year. We are always top 5 in attendance and our fans travel well. Combine that with the fact that the Yum Center is not in very good shape financially and suddenly things start to get interesting.
The NCAA says it's up to the member institutions to police themselves.
Cards fans, hang those banners high.
UK, get WWW a paid position.
EVERYBODY.....let's see what kind of classes we can invent next....just make sure everyone can go.
I used to just whine and b!tch because it looked like everything was rigged.
Guess what?
Today we found out for sure.
God bless and keep you guys, Card fans and Cats fans alike. Even Zipp.
Two to three weeks time out from this before I puke the guts out. Even my hypocrisy only goes so far.
Cards fans, hang those banners high.
UK, get WWW a paid position.
EVERYBODY.....let's see what kind of classes we can invent next....just make sure everyone can go.
I used to just whine and b!tch because it looked like everything was rigged.
Guess what?
Today we found out for sure.
God bless and keep you guys, Card fans and Cats fans alike. Even Zipp.
Two to three weeks time out from this before I puke the guts out. Even my hypocrisy only goes so far.
Sure he said that but not on a witness stand and unfortunately Rashad has some credibility issues and UNC would use that against him.
I really like Jurich. I've made that clear in other posts. I also think that the scandals of the past few years have been handled horribly and because of that, his job is and should be in serious jeopardy. This UNC result only confirms to me that he and Ramsey chose the wrong path with Smrt. UofL should have fought instead they rolled over.
But when you look at what actually happened, it was a scam orchestrated by UNC athletics to keep players eligible, that's bad enough, but what's worse is there were regular students that thought they were getting a legitimate degree in something important, but they were fooled and their degrees are worth nothing.
SACS and the NCAA should be ashamed.
First, I find it hilarious (but not surprising) how indignant all of the slapd!cks are with this decision. If you're a basketball blue blood, the slappies love swarming around you trying to find a turd to crawl on.
And I'll simply repost the rest of my remarks mostly from the premium board where slappies aren't...
I never was looking for a scalp from UNC on this. That's simply retribution and "fan justice". I wouldn't feel one bit better if UNC got the death penalty. They're an ACC school, and I'm glad nothing more happened to them.
This also isn't just about the NCAA... I'd argue that the NCAA is performing as it always has, unpredictably and arbitrarily. And knowing that, why would you assume or expect UNC to have the book thrown at them? I didn't expect that, and it wouldn't have made me feel any better if that had happened.
What it does indicate--further--is how mismanaged our situation was. I was never an advocate of the self-imposed ban, and there is zero evidence it helped us at all. That was naive thinking on the part of the guy(s) who made the decision. The one U of L guy we know for sure was Doc Ramsey, and I suspect from the drama that played out a couple years ago that he was the major/only guy. If I wanted to be esp. critical, I could raise the question of why Jurich went along with Ramsey although Jurich was Ramsey's underling.
In that regard, I somewhat agree with knuckles although I don't see it as any blindness Jurich had to Smrt. You guys know I'm a Jurich fan of epic proportion... I've really never liked the bluster and pride of posturing as the standard bearer for NCAA compliance. And man, that keeps biting us in the a$$ again and again. It's perhaps the single greatest error in strategy by Jurich. If you wanna be great at following NCAA rules, you just walk the walk. All of that talking the talk and being gullible about the real world is what has landed us in a lot of this trouble...
And I'll simply repost the rest of my remarks mostly from the premium board where slappies aren't...
I never was looking for a scalp from UNC on this. That's simply retribution and "fan justice". I wouldn't feel one bit better if UNC got the death penalty. They're an ACC school, and I'm glad nothing more happened to them.
This also isn't just about the NCAA... I'd argue that the NCAA is performing as it always has, unpredictably and arbitrarily. And knowing that, why would you assume or expect UNC to have the book thrown at them? I didn't expect that, and it wouldn't have made me feel any better if that had happened.
What it does indicate--further--is how mismanaged our situation was. I was never an advocate of the self-imposed ban, and there is zero evidence it helped us at all. That was naive thinking on the part of the guy(s) who made the decision. The one U of L guy we know for sure was Doc Ramsey, and I suspect from the drama that played out a couple years ago that he was the major/only guy. If I wanted to be esp. critical, I could raise the question of why Jurich went along with Ramsey although Jurich was Ramsey's underling.
In that regard, I somewhat agree with knuckles although I don't see it as any blindness Jurich had to Smrt. You guys know I'm a Jurich fan of epic proportion... I've really never liked the bluster and pride of posturing as the standard bearer for NCAA compliance. And man, that keeps biting us in the a$$ again and again. It's perhaps the single greatest error in strategy by Jurich. If you wanna be great at following NCAA rules, you just walk the walk. All of that talking the talk and being gullible about the real world is what has landed us in a lot of this trouble...
So, shouldn't UNC have some accreditation problems? Or, have they had enough time to correct their degree programs. Seems many technical colleges have had to close because their core classes weren't up some agencies standards. What a load of sh*t! Academic fraud means nothing to the NCAA. I thought one of the core mandates of this governing body was to see to it's member institutions offerring quality education.
I agree we fight and go to court and go as far as necessary. In the future, don't help in any investigation. F the NCAA.
I agree we fight and go to court and go as far as necessary. In the future, don't help in any investigation. F the NCAA.
I am a life long tar heel fan... I came over here to offer words of hope for you guys but... I know you don't care but let me clarify... This Mccants you speak of is the same guy who wanted to transfer from UNC because coach Williams made him go to class. He equated going to UNC to being in prison. Coach Williams publicly said said at one of his press conferences he doesn't like going to class, he thinks this is prison, he wants to transfer; bring me the paperwork; I'll sign it right now. Rashad shut his mouth. Mccants has a grudge against coach Williams, because he warned NBA teams that he wasnt a very responsible person, and needed mental help... Turns out he was right. This is also the same Mccants who said the NCAA was cutting him a 350,000,000 check, and UNC was cutting him a 150,000,000 check. Yeah how did that work for him. If he is who you guys are hanging your hats on God bless you.
Now I think you guys got done dirty by the NCAA on stripper gate and I was glad you guys were fighting the banner coming down. But then your coach goes out and gets caught on tape talking about buying a player...STUPID I don't think you guys deserve a thing for that patino got canned the kid will never play s game at U of L or any other college unless www can somehow get him. I say no harm no foul you guys easily have a top 5 team this yr; good luck, but please do not quote an idiot who clearly needs a mental evaluation.
You are quoting and talking to a Uk fan there. Just thought you might want clarification since you went on a rant in your second paragraph that he probably couldn't care less about since he is not a UofL fan.
Another Kentucky fan here.
North Carolina found a way to use that massive rule book to their advantage. The NCAA is in shambles since the Penn State over reach of authority. Now they find themselves desperately digging through that pile of paper to justify their actions.
I have to wonder today if the Louisville situation with Powell may not end the same. If you state in the North Carolina case the rule book does not apply, but hammer Louisville for something the COI said was UNPRECEDENTED..... well....goose and gander.
North Carolina just pulled the cover off.
Now we get to see who all jumps in with them openly.
North Carolina found a way to use that massive rule book to their advantage. The NCAA is in shambles since the Penn State over reach of authority. Now they find themselves desperately digging through that pile of paper to justify their actions.
I have to wonder today if the Louisville situation with Powell may not end the same. If you state in the North Carolina case the rule book does not apply, but hammer Louisville for something the COI said was UNPRECEDENTED..... well....goose and gander.
North Carolina just pulled the cover off.
Now we get to see who all jumps in with them openly.
You'll love this then. Postel and Grissom have allegedly hired Smrt to investigate Jurich.
Yeah just saw that. Really inexplicable. Guess he was already in the accounts payable system and they didn't want to add a new vendor.
Regardless where one stands on the current situation, I think we can all agree Smrt's rehire is about as dumbfounding of a move that anyone can possibly make. Are they panicking in Grawemeyer or something? Many rash decisions are being made.
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