ND at Louisville Discussion

Jun 10, 2005
2,342
1,712
26
Didn't ND twice try to join the Big 10+4 back in the Rockne era? They were turned down because the anti Catholic KKK was so strong in the Indiana, Michigan, and Ohio areas. Prejudice kept the Irish out of the Big 10+4. If I was ND, I’d keep turning them down. I think ND would be a lot like Northwestern or Vanderbilt had they been allowed to join decades ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gocds

Ara64

Three-Star Poster
Oct 5, 2012
3,261
105
26
Didn't ND twice try to join the Big 10+4 back in the Rockne era? They were turned down because the anti Catholic KKK was so strong in the Indiana, Michigan, and Ohio areas. Prejudice kept the Irish out of the Big 10+4. If I was ND, I’d keep turning them down. I think ND would be a lot like Northwestern or Vanderbilt had they been allowed to join decades ago.
Yes, the Western Conference now Big whatever turned ND down because of its size and being Catholic. They also put pressure on the other schools in the conference not to play ND. Rockne countered their strategy by taking his ramblers (name before Fighting Irish) on the road and played schools all across the nation. Michigan and Ohio State feared the small Catholic university because they had a knack of winning lots of football games.
 
Jun 10, 2005
2,342
1,712
26
Yes, the Western Conference now Big whatever turned ND down because of its size and being Catholic. They also put pressure on the other schools in the conference not to play ND. Rockne countered their strategy by taking his ramblers (name before Fighting Irish) on the road and played schools all across the nation. Michigan and Ohio State feared the small Catholic university because they had a knack of winning lots of football games.
Yet another reason to dislike the Big 10+4.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gocds and Ara64

zipp

Elite Member
Gold Member
Jun 26, 2001
47,314
10,718
26
My personal opinion as an outsider is that there are too many highbrow egos in the Big Ten to make a comfortable fit for ND. It would purely be financial...
 
  • Like
Reactions: CARDWIZ

Ara64

Three-Star Poster
Oct 5, 2012
3,261
105
26
There's simply not enough money in the world for ND to move into the Big whatever. There are some things money can't buy. There's one asset that the ACC brings to the table more valuable than anything the Big could offer ND. The ACC gives Notre Dame a foothold in the talent rich areas of the South and Atlantic Coast. The ACC is a natural fit for ND. Many schools are similar in size and academics (7) I believe. Plus the historic rivalries with Pitt, Boston College, Syracuse, Ga Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State, FSU, Clemson, WF, and Miami. New football rivalries with Duke, Virginia, Va Tech, and Louisville.
 

kl40504

New Poster, Show Me Love
Oct 5, 2018
31
11
6
Ky fans will be more than happy to chime in. They are experts at everything on this board, or so they think.

Did you know they have 8 National Championships in Basketball? They are looking to nab #9 this year because Cal has really got a great recruiting class coming in. This class just “feels” different from the past others.
How does those 8 National Championships compare to other schools in the ACC.
 

kl40504

New Poster, Show Me Love
Oct 5, 2018
31
11
6
My personal opinion as an outsider is that there are too many highbrow egos in the Big Ten to make a comfortable fit for ND. It would purely be financial...
Zipp where did the Jurich picture go? Are you finally turning the page on him and Pitino?
 

zipp

Elite Member
Gold Member
Jun 26, 2001
47,314
10,718
26
Zipp where did the Jurich picture go? Are you finally turning the page on him and Pitino?
In contrast to clowns, Jurich is and always will be THE MAN. But in almost 20 years, I've probably had that many avatars. I guess TJ had his year. :)

And it's certainly Rex's turn for recognition. You gotta stay current on such important matters... :p
 
  • Like
Reactions: kl40504

kl40504

New Poster, Show Me Love
Oct 5, 2018
31
11
6
In contrast to clowns, Jurich is and always will be THE MAN. But in almost 20 years, I've probably had that many avatars. I guess TJ had his year. :)

And it's certainly Rex's turn for recognition. You gotta stay current on such important matters... :p
Jurich may have been the best AD in college sports while at Louisville.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gocds and zipp

kl40504

New Poster, Show Me Love
Oct 5, 2018
31
11
6
In contrast to clowns, Jurich is and always will be THE MAN. But in almost 20 years, I've probably had that many avatars. I guess TJ had his year. :)

And it's certainly Rex's turn for recognition. You gotta stay current on such important matters... :p
Interesting that it took 29 years to find out Rex mistreated players.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rollem Cards

PHCARD

Moderator
Moderator
Apr 6, 2007
3,439
3,399
26
Nobody is accusing Rex of that kind of ugly. Things don’t get swept under the rug these days. If you don’t want to do things the right way...I guess you just take the money and move on.

How much longer are these ridiculous contacts going to be honored on folks who failed to do their job as written & instructed.

The sports contracts are a joke. Players, managers, coaches it’s all pitiful. But we the fans keep paying for it.
 

gocds

15000+
Gold Member
Jun 13, 2001
17,579
7,752
26
PHCARD may I (I know-as a guest- that I'm not suppose to brag here) respond to this inquiry.
The truth is what it is. The problem with “bragging” is only a problem when the braggart belittles the “host” with their bragging comments. So long as the comments are honest and acceptable then I would think there would be no opposition to your discussing the 8 national titles. And just to be clear here, those titles are “mythical titles” that were voted on by the press. Uh, not saying they weren’t earned by victories but . . . . .

GO CARDS - BEAT EVERYBODY!!! God Bless America!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: PHCARD

Ara64

Three-Star Poster
Oct 5, 2012
3,261
105
26
8 championship is very impressive for sure, But since ND is part of the ACC I must point out that 8 championships hardly compares to the 26 that ND has won over its 132 year history in football. ND is a part member (42%) of the ACC in football after all. Duke has won 5 championships in men's basketball and North Carolina 7. I think the ACC has a lot to crow about, even though we don't crow about it, like an annoying rooster, like BBN.

Before the BCS era all football championships were mythically. You can chose to ignore them but it doesn't change history. Alabama claims the most titles now and that's fine with me. They earned it.
 
Last edited:

TerryD44

No-Ranking Prospect
Dec 2, 2001
9
2
1
You think the acrimony that reportedly exists between ND and some elements of the Big Ten would be diminished if the Irish knock on their door with hat in hand? I kinda doubt it.

And no one would negotiate with ND now to offer them anything like the ACC could/would. It just takes both sides wanting that negotiation...

ND does not want a negotiation with any conference about football membership. The ACC understands this. Google the commissioner's many statements on ND independence.

ND strongly wants to stay a football independent forever. That is a primary goal of ND.

All of its moves since 1990 (NBC deal, Big East deal, ACC deal) were done to keep football out of a conference.

ND could easily be in the Big Ten right now, kept traditional games and regional rivalries and cashed in on $60 million a year from the Big Ten.

Most schools would leap at that. ND said "No" to the Big Ten. Multiple times. Why? ND was not interested in placing football in a conference.

ND voluntarily chooses to make about $30-35 million a year less than that from TV and conference payouts. It would rather stay an independent.

There is nothing that the ACC could offer that would make ND surrender its football program to a conference and give up independence (short of a shotgun to its head via champs only playoffs).

You keep talking about deals and negotiations. I am telling you that there is zero interest by ND in any such thing.

Can you cite one single thing that suggests that ND has any such interest?

ND likes the current set up with the ACC very much and is not interested in any change. The ACC agreed with this, understands this, accepted this and cemented ND's legal status with the conference through multiple contracts running through 2037.

Both sides are happy with the deal and the status quo.

You keep beating a decomposed horse. No sale.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cardfan16

zipp

Elite Member
Gold Member
Jun 26, 2001
47,314
10,718
26
...Both sides are happy with the deal and the status quo.

You keep beating a decomposed horse. No sale.
I don't keep trying to shut down the discussion as some are. In fact, I want the discussion to take place, and I want to hear the tangible pros and cons. What you're coming with is largely intangible and grounded in some sort of image or sentiment that many people under 40 years old can't relate to personally.

I'm also trying to point out the advantages of NOT waiting until it's obvious that you need to join a conference to start that discussion. I've done enough deal cutting in my life to argue those advantages whether or not you appreciate them.

If you don't wanna have that discussion, fine. Just quietly drop out of it. No one is forcing YOU to do anything...
 
Jun 10, 2005
2,342
1,712
26
How does those 8 National Championships compare to other schools in the ACC.
Huh?? I’m sure there were no inbreeding parties after ACC National Championships like at Ky, you do have us there...I’m sure your Maw, Aunt, and sister were quite satisfied back in 2012. Maybe even Paw and Blue the dog too.
 

kl40504

New Poster, Show Me Love
Oct 5, 2018
31
11
6
Huh?? I’m sure there were no inbreeding parties after ACC National Championships like at Ky, you do have us there...I’m sure your Maw, Aunt, and sister were quite satisfied back in 2012. Maybe even Paw and Blue the dog too.
Nice
 

TerryD44

No-Ranking Prospect
Dec 2, 2001
9
2
1
I don't keep trying to shut down the discussion as some are. In fact, I want the discussion to take place, and I want to hear the tangible pros and cons. What you're coming with is largely intangible and grounded in some sort of image or sentiment that many people under 40 years old can't relate to personally.

I'm also trying to point out the advantages of NOT waiting until it's obvious that you need to join a conference to start that discussion. I've done enough deal cutting in my life to argue those advantages whether or not you appreciate them.

If you don't wanna have that discussion, fine. Just quietly drop out of it. No one is forcing YOU to do anything...

I was a civil defense litigation attorney for 32 years. I know a bit about negotiations and "deal cutting".

I understand that it takes having two sides interested in a deal to even try to discuss one. ND has no such interest.

Just ask John Swofford:

"At the ACC Kickoff program, ACC Commissioner John Swofford was asked what the status of Notre Dame’s potential addition might be. He shot down any potential rumors by stating that the current arrangement is being maintained.

However, he kept the door open for Notre Dame’s potential addition to the conference in the future. Speaking to Sporting News, Swofford stated that if Notre Dame ever expressed interest in joining the ACC, they’d discuss the idea.

But Swofford made it clear that neither he nor the conference as a whole believes that will happen though. He went so far as to say he’s never even bought into the notion that it is a “matter of time” before the Fighting Irish join.


“If Notre Dame reached a point where they were interested to join in football, we would readily have that conversation… I don’t expect that to happen. When we made the arrangement with Notre Dame, some people thought, ‘Well it’s just a matter of time in football.’ I’ve never really thought that.”


ND Athletic Director Jack Swarbrick has discussed independence quite a few times the past couple of years. He is adamant that ND will remain independent:

But, he acknowledges that ND loses money as an independent and has a tougher route to the playoffs. That is considered the cost of doing business as a football indy.



"Most Power 5 conference programs rake in at least $20 million more than Notre Dame from their media rights deals. That Notre Dame takes that hit, that it willingly pays that penalty, may be what best explains the sacrosanctity of independence here.

There is no financial advantage to Notre Dame being independent in terms of operations,” Swarbrick said. “It costs us money. We would be much better off all in with the ACC or any Power 5 conference.

“But it is the broader value it produces. And this is the dynamic that’s always a bit hard to articulate and engage in for the fans just focused on whether you’re going to win the national championship. That is very important to all of us, but the decisions we make don’t just drive to that question.”




To understand why the university will fight to maintain its independence, that requires a comprehension of Notre Dame beyond media rights and conference championship games. And once the story drills that deep, to Rev. Edward Sorin founding Notre Dame in 1842, to anti-Catholic sentiments of the early 20th century, to Rev. Theodore Hesburgh’s backing the civil rights movement and later bucking the Vatican, Notre Dame’s independent spirit starts to show.

“It’s so much coded into the DNA of the place,” Swarbrick said. “It starts with the founder, who was remarkably independent in a host of ways. It starts with the early success of football right at a time where you couldn’t join club, because of the politics that have been chronicled about that period of time.

“This place is more distinct in the American college and university landscape today than it’s ever been. And (independence) is part of that.”

https://theathletic.com/1068782/2019/07/23/the-value-notre-dame-places-on-being-independent/


"The reason why Notre Dame has the flexibility to schedule such marquee matchups every year is because of its independent status. Swarbrick doesn’t see the Irish joining a conference any time soon, even if it would make a path to the College Football Playoff easier.

We don’t choose independence because it helps the football program,” Swarbrick said. “We would have a potentially easier path to a championship in the current model if we were in a conference. We choose independence because of its benefit for the University and what football represents. It’s our ability to play in New York and California … the ACC lets us travel from Miami to Boston, we’ll play in iconic venues like Lambeau Field — that’s what we need to do. Don’t get me wrong, our focus has to be winning football games and competing for national championships, but we have this secondary obligation with the program to use it as a vehicle to promote the school, and we look for every opportunity to do that.

https://ndsmcobserver.com/2018/08/swarbrick-football-program-future/




Why has ND passed up the riches and other benefits of joining the Big Ten?

Why did ND negotiate a partial deal with first the Big East and then the ACC?

There is not one peep from any ND source about anyone at ND being interested in discussing full membership with the ACC...ever.



But for discussion purposes, please list what you think it would take for the ACC to snag ND football.
 

Rollem Cards

15000+
Gold Member
Jul 9, 2001
19,497
8,823
26
Tobacco Road may as well be Lexington Ky

Basketball is KING and bygawd nothing is going to change it.

The ACC tried to boost FB by expansion vs growing their own brand.

The ACC didn’t “need” our BB but they did need our FB.

It’s going to change slowly it seems.
 

PHCARD

Moderator
Moderator
Apr 6, 2007
3,439
3,399
26
NC, Duke, Va, BC, Syracuse have made some noise the last few years. We need FSU, Miami, Louisville of course to get back to where they were quickly.
IMO, ACC FB can be what some think SEC FB is.
 

gocds

15000+
Gold Member
Jun 13, 2001
17,579
7,752
26
NC, Duke, Va, BC, Syracuse have made some noise the last few years. We need FSU, Miami, Louisville of course to get back to where they were quickly.
IMO, ACC FB can be what some think SEC FB is.
In my opinion, FSU will need a coaching upgrade to get back to it’s former position as an elite program. I’m hoping THE UofL and Miami are on track. All of that remains to be seen.

GO CARDS - BEAT EVERYBODY!!! God Bless America!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mayoman and PHCARD

zipp

Elite Member
Gold Member
Jun 26, 2001
47,314
10,718
26
I was a civil defense litigation attorney for 32 years. I know a bit about negotiations and "deal cutting".

I understand that it takes having two sides interested in a deal to even try to discuss one. ND has no such interest.

Just ask John Swofford:

"At the ACC Kickoff program, ACC Commissioner John Swofford was asked what the status of Notre Dame’s potential addition might be. He shot down any potential rumors by stating that the current arrangement is being maintained.

However, he kept the door open for Notre Dame’s potential addition to the conference in the future. Speaking to Sporting News, Swofford stated that if Notre Dame ever expressed interest in joining the ACC, they’d discuss the idea.

But Swofford made it clear that neither he nor the conference as a whole believes that will happen though. He went so far as to say he’s never even bought into the notion that it is a “matter of time” before the Fighting Irish join.


“If Notre Dame reached a point where they were interested to join in football, we would readily have that conversation… I don’t expect that to happen. When we made the arrangement with Notre Dame, some people thought, ‘Well it’s just a matter of time in football.’ I’ve never really thought that.”


ND Athletic Director Jack Swarbrick has discussed independence quite a few times the past couple of years. He is adamant that ND will remain independent:

But, he acknowledges that ND loses money as an independent and has a tougher route to the playoffs. That is considered the cost of doing business as a football indy.



"Most Power 5 conference programs rake in at least $20 million more than Notre Dame from their media rights deals. That Notre Dame takes that hit, that it willingly pays that penalty, may be what best explains the sacrosanctity of independence here.

There is no financial advantage to Notre Dame being independent in terms of operations,” Swarbrick said. “It costs us money. We would be much better off all in with the ACC or any Power 5 conference.

“But it is the broader value it produces. And this is the dynamic that’s always a bit hard to articulate and engage in for the fans just focused on whether you’re going to win the national championship. That is very important to all of us, but the decisions we make don’t just drive to that question.”




To understand why the university will fight to maintain its independence, that requires a comprehension of Notre Dame beyond media rights and conference championship games. And once the story drills that deep, to Rev. Edward Sorin founding Notre Dame in 1842, to anti-Catholic sentiments of the early 20th century, to Rev. Theodore Hesburgh’s backing the civil rights movement and later bucking the Vatican, Notre Dame’s independent spirit starts to show.

“It’s so much coded into the DNA of the place,” Swarbrick said. “It starts with the founder, who was remarkably independent in a host of ways. It starts with the early success of football right at a time where you couldn’t join club, because of the politics that have been chronicled about that period of time.

“This place is more distinct in the American college and university landscape today than it’s ever been. And (independence) is part of that.”

https://theathletic.com/1068782/2019/07/23/the-value-notre-dame-places-on-being-independent/


"The reason why Notre Dame has the flexibility to schedule such marquee matchups every year is because of its independent status. Swarbrick doesn’t see the Irish joining a conference any time soon, even if it would make a path to the College Football Playoff easier.

We don’t choose independence because it helps the football program,” Swarbrick said. “We would have a potentially easier path to a championship in the current model if we were in a conference. We choose independence because of its benefit for the University and what football represents. It’s our ability to play in New York and California … the ACC lets us travel from Miami to Boston, we’ll play in iconic venues like Lambeau Field — that’s what we need to do. Don’t get me wrong, our focus has to be winning football games and competing for national championships, but we have this secondary obligation with the program to use it as a vehicle to promote the school, and we look for every opportunity to do that.

https://ndsmcobserver.com/2018/08/swarbrick-football-program-future/




Why has ND passed up the riches and other benefits of joining the Big Ten?

Why did ND negotiate a partial deal with first the Big East and then the ACC?

There is not one peep from any ND source about anyone at ND being interested in discussing full membership with the ACC...ever.



But for discussion purposes, please list what you think it would take for the ACC to snag ND football.
I'll take the cliff notes version next time... ;)

With your background, you oughta be wise enough to recognize the difference between what is said publicly and on record vs privately. I'm not too interested in what a conference commissioner says during a media interview.

I'll simply reiterate... If ND anticipates having to someday join a conference, you're going to be better off NOT waiting until that time is obvious. That simply shifts the balance of power to the conference(s). And I don't think you're getting the same deal from each conference...
 

Mayoman

4500+
Gold Member
Sep 13, 2001
4,919
2,755
26
All it would take would be for the NCAA to state that only conference champions are eligible to make the FF Playoffs. That would be a game changer for ND and all the rest of the Indies.o_O

Never argue with a lawyer....that is what they do for a living. And in summation........
 
  • Like
Reactions: zipp

TerryD44

No-Ranking Prospect
Dec 2, 2001
9
2
1
I'll take the cliff notes version next time... ;)

With your background, you oughta be wise enough to recognize the difference between what is said publicly and on record vs privately. I'm not too interested in what a conference commissioner says during a media interview.

I'll simply reiterate... If ND anticipates having to someday join a conference, you're going to be better off NOT waiting until that time is obvious. That simply shifts the balance of power to the conference(s). And I don't think you're getting the same deal from each conference...


I gave you the cliff notes version several times. You didn't like it.

I will reiterate:

ND ain't interested. It doesn't think its football program will ever have to join a conference.

Is that better?

P.S. You never answered my question about the great benefits you think the ACC can offer ND to junk 130 years of football independence.

Care to set that out?
 
Jun 10, 2005
2,342
1,712
26
I gave you the cliff notes version several times. You didn't like it.

I will reiterate:

ND ain't interested. It doesn't think its football program will ever have to join a conference.

Is that better?

P.S. You never answered my question about the great benefits you think the ACC can offer ND to junk 130 years of football independence.

Care to set that out?

You think ND will join the ACC soon? If so, when?
 

zipp

Elite Member
Gold Member
Jun 26, 2001
47,314
10,718
26
I gave you the cliff notes version several times. You didn't like it.

I will reiterate:

ND ain't interested. It doesn't think its football program will ever have to join a conference.

Is that better?

P.S. You never answered my question about the great benefits you think the ACC can offer ND to junk 130 years of football independence.

Care to set that out?
How about stability? One of your comrades already said there's more money as well.

And I've said and said again that if you want the best deal for yourself, you don't wait until you HAVE to cut the deal. Too late at that point...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mayoman

Thecycle27

Two-Star Poster
Sep 17, 2017
1,071
804
26
Notre Dame doesn’t want any part of a conference.

If the the landscape shifts their TV or national fan base would make them an attractive addition. A valuation would need to be done to see what kind of $$$ they would bring into the conference.

Look at the game at Louisville on Monday almost a sell out. They bring value to the ACC without being in the conference.