And you were recruited when? That's the only way you'd know what's said in private conversations.
Never mind. We know the answer.
Marcus Lee Withdrawing From Draft. Transferring From UK
- Thread starter shadow force
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And you were recruited when? That's the only way you'd know what's said in private conversations.
Never mind. We know the answer.
I'm excellent at evaluating talent, that's what its based on.Based on what exactly??? The stats (over 3 years at UK) don't support your assertion. AND...Lee had more blocked shots last year (59) than Stone had in 3 years. Your statements simply aren't supported by metrics. And hey...can help Lee with that awful FT percentage here as well. We teach the "granny shot" free throws; raised Onuaku's FT% from 47 to 59%.
But, if you want something more concrete. Marvin averaged roughly 1 pt more than Marcus. Neither one are/were juggernauts. I give Marcus the edge on the defensive end, Marvin the edge on rebounds.Marvin
Marcus
Everyone is allowed to guess/slant what Cal says to recruits. Let me guess which way it will be slanted here...And you were recruited when? That's the only way you'd know what's said in private conversations.
Never mind. We know the answer.
I WILL grant you one thing, Stone at UofL WAS better than Lee OR Stone at Kentucky.
And we'll guess which way it would be slanted by a UK fan.
A waste of time exercise either way.
I missed this one but if you watched that game, you'd have noticed that Booker was a statue on defense out there and got repeatedly schooled at that end of the floor. It's also easy to remember the season Ulis just had and assume he was that good as a freshman - he wasn't. At the end of the day, the Harrisons got us to the brink of a national title as freshmen and 38 straight wins as sophomores. That's more than almost any backcourt in history can say.
Actually, much of my perspective on this matter came from LPT fans themselves. How many posed this very question in the wake of the loss to Wisky? Hard to prove the counterfactual, but that is/was the perception.
"Elite program", my a$$...
And that's an obvious piece of evidence. You don't have such a system otherwise.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Or maybe, when you have THAT much talent the best option is to equally play 10 guys. The announcement of the platoon system didn't necessarily suggest a promise was made - it did however suggest that it would be for the best of the team, in Cal's opinion as coach. And it worked pretty well!!
A lot of fans are reactionary and unrealistic. I never posed that question because it's a stupid take.
It's easy to lose a game like that and start looking for reasons. Nobody wanted to just admit that any team can lose 1 game (the best NBA playoff team in my lifetime, the 2001 Lakers, lost a game to the mediocre Pistons in the finals.) Or that Wisconsin was a really good team with a lot of returning experience from a Final Four team and a couple of lottery picks themselves. No, some fans feel the need to blame somebody and in this case some thought blaming the twins was a good idea. It wasn't.
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Here's the deal... Nothing that your coach did was particularly unique. As evidence, below is a chart of minutes per game for the First/Top Ten players on last year's U of L team and the 38-1 LPT team. A true "platoon" for the first ten players would be a flat line at around 20 mpg. The flatter the line, the closer it is to Pitino Lite's platoon goal.
Yeah, the LPT line is a little flatter. Although it should be noted that your last guy off the bench (Lee) averaged fewer minutes than U of L's last guy (Adel).
BUT no one heard Pitino once utter the word "platoon" or another descriptor that indicated a flat distribution of playing time. Because Pitino didn't have to. He didn't need to telegraph to anyone that U of L's guys not starting would be getting a lotta minutes. Pitino just made those decisions.
Pitino Lite has to say that stuff because he has to constantly communicate with recruits. No blue chipper is coming to ride the bench for many minutes. And no blue chipper already in Lexington is gonna be happy doing that.
"Platoon" is all the evidence you need that Lite has to fulfill his commitments--made, implied, and yet to be made.
"Elite program", my a$$...
And, I disagree with that take. If you watched the 2014-2015 team, you would know that both platoons did not play equal time, and in many cases, not much at all. If playing time was "promised", as you say the announcement of playing platoons suggested, then that second platoon must have felt awfully betrayed. I never saw any evidence of that when watching that team roll on to a 38-0 record. But, if you're suggesting that just the idea of playing time, due to the mere announcement of a platoon system, was enough to appease all of those 5 star players, then Cal's an ever greater genius than I thought.
That was the reasoning behind announcing it. The announcement wasn't made for the fans. The announcement was made for the players, the current ones at that time, as well as the future recruits - to curb concern over playing time.
I think Calipari handled that well, in terms of keeping players happy.
He made an announcement that the top 10 players would get an opportunity to play due to a platoon. This is not rocket science. I understand there are instances where public statements can be interpreted a number of ways, but this looks pretty clear as to why the statement was made.
It doesn't take a real deep thinker to figure this out.
Five play at a time. There were roughly ten highly recruited players.
That's the point, that he had to "announce" something. A guy deciding how he allocates playing time isn't breakthrough coaching. Pitino just does it--he doesn't generally talk about playing time unless a player is playing well or poorly.
And you're right that Pitino Lite ain't talking about it for the fans' benefit (unless he's talking about honoring a commitment). It's all about assuring kids already on the roster or considering LPT. If you're a star--make that "five stars"--you'll get playing time. No other explanation makes sense.
"Elite program", my a$$...
And I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with that. If the guy is going to bring in a large quantity of top shelf recruits and a couple previous ones stick around maybe unexpectedly then there could be a need to clarify how it's going to work with that many top shelf players when only five play at a time. The system is invented to churn and burn NBA prospects and an NBA prospect has to wonder how he improves and/or maintains his stock if there are 9-11 guys that need playing time.
A promise to some degree needs to be made to avoid potential chemistry problems during the season, and to that extent the announcement of the platoon system worked for them.
Then again, that can be debated also, since the team was #1 the entire year and didn't finish #1. It can also be debated in terms of the players actual development, but that's a conversation that could last 5-10 pages.
I wouldn't expect anything different from the coach of a "players first" program. It's perfectly consistent.
And LPT fans need to own that. It may not be how they wanna view their program and coach, but that doesn't matter. It's reality.
"Elite program", my a$$...
And LPT fans need to own that. It may not be how they wanna view their program and coach, but that doesn't matter. It's reality.
"Elite program", my a$$...
"Own" what? What UK does and how they manage their program has ZERO impact on my life.
Ask me to own my bourbon addiction, or my bad temper, or the fact that I spend too much time arguing with you zipp. But "owning" how the coach of an entity who doesn't affect my life acts seems pretty stupid.
Context, owning in terms of basketball conversation. Not owning anything literally. Come on John you are an excellent poster you know what Zipp meant.
I don't track stuff too well from poster to poster, but I think John has held the belief that his program doesn't make commitments to players coming in the door as far as exposure and PT. And we agree that sort of commitment on the part of their coach is not unreasonable for a players first program.
JOHN HIMSELF is not making that commitment, and he may not like it. But it's foolish to argue that's not happening because there's no other way to explain the LPT program, how it's managed, and what everyone else sees.
Does it relegate the program and the team's goals behind the players and individual goals? I think their coach argues those objectives are mutually achievable. Or at least that's what he believes. If you're going to have a reasonable debate in this regard, that's probably the one to have--that disparate goals can be mutually achieved.
"Elite program", my a$$...
JOHN HIMSELF is not making that commitment, and he may not like it. But it's foolish to argue that's not happening because there's no other way to explain the LPT program, how it's managed, and what everyone else sees.
Does it relegate the program and the team's goals behind the players and individual goals? I think their coach argues those objectives are mutually achievable. Or at least that's what he believes. If you're going to have a reasonable debate in this regard, that's probably the one to have--that disparate goals can be mutually achieved.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Good point hopgood, I understand that. I guess for me, I just don't care. If he promises playing time, the players who don't get it don't seem to be too upset about it. A guy like Towns would have played 30+ MPG anywhere else and got barely over 20 here and didn't seem to mind. Whatever he's doing is working, that's good enough for me.
I'd argue in this instance, it didn't work. They didn't win the title with that roster but that's a whole other 5-10 pg conversation.
If not winning the title means a complete overhaul of how a program is doing things, there would be a LOT of coaches being shown the door every year.
If a 38-1 season, and a 217-47 record during Cal's tenure, is not considered as "working" in terms of success, then we're obviously never going to agree on what a successful program/season is. I get that you enjoy, and make it a goal, to diminish all things UK. But, no other rational person, without an emotional investment in the rivalry, has that viewpoint. Many like to suggest that UK fans are only happy with National Championships, and therefore, consider anything less than the NC a failure. Well, that's simply not the truth. In the iconic words of Reese Bobby, "...you can be second, third, fourth… hell you can even be fifth."
I never said to overhaul a program or show any coach the door, I said "in this instance" the plan applied to the team of Towns did not work in the end.
Ahhh, I see. I was referring to the overall state of the program as it is currently being run since that seems to be the way the conversation was flowing in regard to promised minutes, etc.
I'm a realist though - its damn hard to win titles. Should UK have won that year? Probably. But you can say that about a lot of teams that didn't ultimately win it. I don't consider a FF with a roster full of teenagers a failure.
You don't "get" my posts.
I said in this instance, which would not be a review of an entire tenure at UK.
Instance is not a real hard word to understand for most, it's very elementary vocabulary being used there.
You're just another in the long line of visiting posters that really likes to argue about some UK and can't handle a constructive comment about UK without feeling dissed and feeling the need to set the record straight and stand up for your guys and turn a few posts into more than they are.
I have made two casual points in this thread.
1) When he announced a platoon, it was a promise to players playing time would be shared by all. If you can't understand that, it's no real big deal.
2) UK's team of Booker/Towns etc did not accomplish as much as it should have accomplished.
You don't know what I enjoy. You don't know what my goals are. I haven't taken shots at any players or gotten personal about any coaches here. You just don't get it. Get it? Me doubts.
1) Simply your opinion. A compelling argument hasn't been made to convince me beyond a reasonable doubt.
2) That team should have won it all, but didn't, just as many others before them. 38-1 is still an amazing, record breaking, successful season.
There are not that many teams that should have won a title that didn't. There are a few teams that come to mind. Houston and Gtown in the 80s, there just aren't that many, maybe you can point to a few others.
UK was in a talent class of their own. Questioning a coach decision on how he handled a team is not insulting the coach so be clear on the point I'm making. Blasting KU early in the year and handling UofL with ease set the bar high, but so did all the talent. We could point to a # of things that may have cost them a title in the end usually the coach takes some or most of the blame in instances where the team in question is far and away the best team.
But I'm open to another point of view. Maybe UK was not far and away the best team. If you think UK was just overrated all year and spent the final 2-3 months of the season feasting on garbage teams, and got bored, picked up bad habits, and didn't really get a lot better throughout the season because of that schedule making them look and feel better than they were, and ended up heading into the tournament more on par with recently battle tested teams like Duke/Wisc/ND - I can go along with that too.
1) It's not my opinion, it's my ability to grasp the meaning of words Calipari used, and your inability to do the same. What does "we're going to play a platoon" mean to you if it doesn't mean everyone is going to play? Does it mean they're going to watch the war movie?
2) There aren't many others before them that should have won a title but didn't. I understand why that line of thinking would make you feel better. The team failed in the end. Tough pill to swallow. Hang in there.
As far as what Pitino Lite does that works, few of us can debate his recruiting the marquee players. He does it by historical standards. And once they're at LPT, he keeps them happy playing together--or as much as possible. As U of L fans with Pitino, we can probably appreciate those abilities more than any other fanbase. This should all be considered pretty much factual.
The stuff beyond those facts is worthy of debate. Is a championship the ultimate indicator? Are Lite's accomplishments beyond recruiting that praiseworthy considering his talent and schedule strength? Does focusing on marquee players get you the best team chemistry and the necessary experience to win championships? Does Lite's system provide stability and continuity that will survive him? Should the standard for excellence be higher at a school that focuses most of its attention on basketball? The answers to those questions are far less clear.
"Elite program", my a$$...
The stuff beyond those facts is worthy of debate. Is a championship the ultimate indicator? Are Lite's accomplishments beyond recruiting that praiseworthy considering his talent and schedule strength? Does focusing on marquee players get you the best team chemistry and the necessary experience to win championships? Does Lite's system provide stability and continuity that will survive him? Should the standard for excellence be higher at a school that focuses most of its attention on basketball? The answers to those questions are far less clear.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Again, there's far too much evidence like "the NBA Draft is the greatest nite in LPT history."
LPT is a players first program, and that means the players and what they're interested in comes FIRST. That's what your coach says because he knows that's what current and future players wanna hear. Things like "platoon" are just offshoots from that.
I understand that some feel it sort of diminishes your program. But it's silly to still be denying it at this point. Better to try to rationalize and explain it if you want credibility as an LPT fan.
"Elite program", my a$$...
LPT is a players first program, and that means the players and what they're interested in comes FIRST. That's what your coach says because he knows that's what current and future players wanna hear. Things like "platoon" are just offshoots from that.
I understand that some feel it sort of diminishes your program. But it's silly to still be denying it at this point. Better to try to rationalize and explain it if you want credibility as an LPT fan.
"Elite program", my a$$...
