Judge in Federal Hoops Trial
- Thread starter Knucklehank1
- Start date
Actually, that’s a pretty easy question to answer. Based on the currently available evidence, no one previously associated with the UofL basketball staff is considered to have a committed a crime, hence no indictments. But the evidence does show that Pitino’s staff repeatedly committed serious NCAA violations.
And we now have at least 4 data points concerning those violations (Andre McGee, Coach Mike, Jordan Fair, Kenny Johnson) through two separate scandals. Pitino was either unwilling or unable to get his staff under control in terms of not committing NCAA violations. That’s why Pitino had to be fired, even if he was not actively or passively involved in the violations… Enough was enough.
And the situation was similar with Jurich… He was either unwilling or unable to get the basketball program under his control. After the stripper scandal, his #1 job should have been to put into place controls that would prevent any major NCAA violations from happening again, but that obviously didn’t work. It was time for new leadership. And that doesn’t negate his leadership for the tremendous increase in facilities and two conference upgrades, which we should always be grateful for.
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I wonder where all these Pitino hating fans were in 2013?
That's a pretty easy question to answer too....2013 was before 2 major NCAA scandals that brought shame to the university and led to the narrative that we had the dirtiest program in the country, or at least since Miami football.
This isn't about Pitino's staff, it's about him.
Some in this space are convinced that Pitino conspired to funnel money to players and recruits. Since that's against NCAA rules and public funds were involved, the Feds could indict Pitino for what is apparently a crime. And if you're speaking for those convinced, why haven't they indicted him?
This isn't about breaking NCAA rules per se. It's about stealing money from taxpayers...
He and others understood the mechanics of the system. All the coaches knew, of course they are smart enough to stay out of the mechanics, but they the KNEW the system. When he was told DePaul offered dollars to Bowen, he should have walked away because he KNEW the system. Somebody was shopping the kid and the risk of taking him at that moment in time was too great.
Pitinio shifted his main assistants to be recruiters in the last 5 years.
Fact-Johnson highly involved in the shoe game and recruiting world. No real head coaching desire.
Fact-Fair highly involved in the shoe game and recruiting world. Not a up and coming head coach.
Fact-Hired an assistant highly tied to shoe game and recruiting world, left after a year.
He was jumping into the deep end because he knew he had too. I really don't blame him for playing the game, but it infuriates me he and all these over paid coaches are taking zero responsibility/accountability for their direct or indirect involvement. In fact he is blaming Louisville for ruining his career, no the people you hired did that to you.
Who exactly is 'my guy' zipp? I'll stand behind my belief that the 'bigger fish' are insulated and protected. Pitino didn't lose his job because of the FBI stuff. He lost his job over several different events which happened over a period of time. The FBI probe and his name being mentioned was the final straw which sealed his fate. Had the FBI probe been the first possible infraction for Pitino, he would still be coaching the Cards.When they start subpoenaing marquee head coaches to testify and evidence like this week's re. LSU starts leaking out, they're moving beyond the small fish.
Where's YOUR guy?...
That's not the system he thought was working for U of L recruits. He may have understood that other entities were funneling money to a kid like Bowen, but it wasn't U of L or so he thought. That's not the same thing as DePaul offering a kid money.
And how do you know that same thing isn't still going on? How do you know that Mack isn't recruiting kids being paid by shoe guys, agents, etc? Are you asking that question or just assuming it's not?
Unless you've got some sort of unique insight, I believe it's pretty hard to recruit in the Top Twenty and stay lily white. You're playing in a pig pen--it's hard not to get a little muddy...
Your guy is the one you wanna see most indicted. And it's becoming increasingly clear that he wasn't nearly as up to his eyeballs in this FBI stuff as you and others wanna believe.
That's a different narrative than whether Pitino should still have his job. I've said on many occasions that he needed to be retired. That isn't perp walked by a clown show who really wanted to get at Jurich. The clowns have brought most of this on U of L, and you wanna continue to run the car over a guy that makes you feel good to do. Knock yourself out...
The one I want to see most indicted is absolutely NOT 'my guy'. The big fish that is most insulated is coaching just up I64. Also, nothing has become increasingly clear other than the FBI simply wanted to grandstand and had little interest in actually blowing up the corruption associated with recruiting. They're ignoring the obvious offenders and there's a reason for that. It has everything to do with $$$$$$$
I wasn’t speaking for anyone else. I simply gave you the answer to your earlier question of why Pitino hasn’t been indicted -- no evidence of a crime, only an NCAA violation (it was Adidas money and Johnson money and earlier it was McGee money for all we know, unless you have evidence otherwise, in which case this is even worse for UofL and the previous athletic administration).
And I gave you my opinion on why Pitino needed to be fired -- he was either unwilling or unable to control his staff. Was the FBI happy to get a big name like Pitino involved in the case? Sure. But the bottom-line reason why he had to be fired was his lack of control over his staff - four data points, four different assistants and counting! That was his failure, and by extension, Jurich’s as well.
And “the clown show” didn’t bring “this” on UofL. Pitino and Jurich brought the scandals on that led to their own dismissals by their unwillingness or inability to reign in the basketball staff. The UofL administration handled the dismissals poorly, especially Jurich’s, but they did the right thing. Enough was enough.
I don't disagree with your first two paragraphs, and you evidently don't represent the faction here that believes Pitino was directly complicit in pay-for-play. If someone else who actually believes that wants to debate me, you should let them.
As far as your last paragraph, you don't know what Pitino and Jurich did to "rein in the basketball staff." You only know the alleged results--in fact, no one has been successfully indicted or accused of anything--and I'm not questioning those. I recall many people involved acknowledging Pitino's "don't even jaywalk" directive.
You're a national embarrassment because the clowns sealed the deal for U of L. And there's no justification for so-called "leaders" making a situation much worse. Their actions made U of L the face of the scandal while other schools and coaches committed worse offenses...
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[QUOTE="zipp,
And how do you know that same thing isn't still going on? How do you know that Mack isn't recruiting kids being paid by shoe guys, agents, etc? Are you asking that question or just assuming it's not?
Unless you've got some sort of unique insight, I believe it's pretty hard to recruit in the Top Twenty and stay lily white. You're playing in a pig pen--it's hard not to get a little muddy...[/QUOTE]
Zipp, I like CCM. So far he hasn't recruited any 5 star players. ( that's where most of the money is) He brings in 4**** and coaches them up a star *
And how do you know that same thing isn't still going on? How do you know that Mack isn't recruiting kids being paid by shoe guys, agents, etc? Are you asking that question or just assuming it's not?
Unless you've got some sort of unique insight, I believe it's pretty hard to recruit in the Top Twenty and stay lily white. You're playing in a pig pen--it's hard not to get a little muddy...[/QUOTE]
Zipp, I like CCM. So far he hasn't recruited any 5 star players. ( that's where most of the money is) He brings in 4**** and coaches them up a star *
Generally I agree. And I've commended Mack for recruiting in the range he is and trying to coach them up.
But the Smart kid who's involved in pay-for-play with Wade at LSU, he was rated #32 by Rivals in the 2018 class. Samuell Williamson is rated #25 in our 2019 class.
There's risk and less risk. But not in all likelihood NO risk unless your class consists of the Ryan McMahons of this world...
Guys Mack landed some high profile guys for next year.
The entire system is a mess we are addicted to the sport but the reality is if you're putting a lot of emotion into it you're setting yourself up for disappointment because who knows when another shoe is going to drop somewhere.
If your class consists of the Ryan McMahons of the world your program isn't even Wake Forest or Georgia Tech.
Let's just hope the staff is handling business and keeping their noses clean. Until they are proven otherwise I'm just going to hope they are.
The entire system is a mess we are addicted to the sport but the reality is if you're putting a lot of emotion into it you're setting yourself up for disappointment because who knows when another shoe is going to drop somewhere.
If your class consists of the Ryan McMahons of the world your program isn't even Wake Forest or Georgia Tech.
Let's just hope the staff is handling business and keeping their noses clean. Until they are proven otherwise I'm just going to hope they are.
Igiehon and Williamson both in the ESPN top 50.
Williamson had a ton of offers and it seems Igiehon kind of busted onto the scene a little later.
Really the entire class has guys that received numerous nice offers so who knows what their decisions boiled down to. Nickleberry is from NC and the Heels did offer per ESPN.
Just cross your fingers. What else can you do at this point?
Williamson had a ton of offers and it seems Igiehon kind of busted onto the scene a little later.
Really the entire class has guys that received numerous nice offers so who knows what their decisions boiled down to. Nickleberry is from NC and the Heels did offer per ESPN.
Just cross your fingers. What else can you do at this point?
I understand the hand wringing, but in my opinion this is the cleanest that recruiting has ever been. You got the freakin feds tapping phones and setting up hotel stings. Everyone is laying low for a while. If you don’t go after the big fish then your competition will.
At this moment in time you would think college recruiting has cleaned up at least for a while. Now I agree the game is the game high profile recruits bring risk. All I want is coaches to own the process and manage it where they don't put the University at risk. The most disappointing part for me is I took a great deal of pride in Louisville winning at a high level without cheating then I found out they were no different than anyone else.
I really don't know if it is possible to win at the highest level in the 2 revenue sports without cheating. I guess I have been naive all these years to believe you could win without going down that path. I guess that is why I am watching more college baseball and woman's basketball than football and basketball.
I really don't know if it is possible to win at the highest level in the 2 revenue sports without cheating. I guess I have been naive all these years to believe you could win without going down that path. I guess that is why I am watching more college baseball and woman's basketball than football and basketball.
Recruiting has never been clean and never will be.
Theyll just find a different avenue.
Theyll just find a different avenue.
Your third paragraph misses the fact that UofL WAS the face of the FBI basketball scandal the moment that people were able to add 1+1 and figure out that “Coach 2” was Pitino. The UofL leadership at the time did the right thing by terminating Pitino and Jurich immediately, indicating that while the university had been on the wrong side of NCAA infractions in the recent past, that type of behavior would no longer be tolerated. Period.
As for Pitino and the possibility that he was then passively allowing the staff to participate in the shoe dealer pay-for-play schemes, the "he doesn't know everything" (which strongly suggests that he did know some things) and "plausible deniability" wiretap lends a lot of credence to that as the very likely explanation for what occurred, if he wasn’t even more involved. For a coach that micromanaged every aspect of the program, that's the most likely explanation for why the staff committed so many “rogue” activities. And while no one on the staff has actually been indicted, both Fair and Johnson were clearly implicated in NCAA violations during the recent trial, leaving us right back exactly where we were when Pitino and Jurich were rightly terminated. No amount of word spin can change that.
I disagree. All the Feds have done is show people they're under scrutiny and not to use tactics that worked before. Kids still want money and people who profit off of them still wanna pay it. When counterparties to a crime wanna commit that crime--like drug dealers and users--it's tough to stop it...
Your leadership made you the only school so far to fire it's head coach and AD. That put you in a group of one, and that's where you will continue to be portrayed when anyone wants to write an account of facts and events. Clowns have put U of L front and center.
And IMO it wasn't an unintended consequence. They didn't care about trashing programs that their predecessors built. How many pot shots have the clowns taken at those guys since they were canned in failed attempts to make themselves look good?
The fact that you and no one else can reconcile is that the biggest fish so far implicated--Pitino--still hasn't been indicted. And as I keep saying, the news is getting a little stale. The anti-Pitino narrative is gonna need to morph pretty soon for the mafia boss to live on unscathed. Gimme an advance copy of that draft when you have it...
I don’t expect Pitino to be indicted. UofL was the victim. However I expect UofL to get hit with another probation because of the malfeasance of Pitino’s assistants and the deflection of duty by Pitino. Unfortunately he thought spending time in Miami was more important than steering the ship.
Yeah and there’s that little issue with Kenny Johnson paying Bowen’s dad. That could be really bad.
The key will be how your leadership responds. If they roll over again like they've done so far, you have no one to blame but them. THEY and no else are in charge. And we have too much experience what rolling over accomplishes...
Once again… Pitino has not been indicted because he has not been alleged to have committed any crimes, but rather he was the head coach of a program involved in multiple serious NCAA violations, and so it was time for his dismissal. You keep trying various ways to spin that fact, but we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
As for UofL being the only school to fire its head coach and AD, great! That indicates that we were the first school to truly take all of this seriously. By the way, I could be off by one or two, but I believe that about five assistant coaches outside of Louisville have been fired for their roles in the FBI scandal. And, as you know, the fallout is far from over.
And as for potshots at predecessors, Jurich sure took several of them at Petrino when Kragthorpe was the coach. And then he forgot all about the culture issues that he complained about from Bobby’s first stint here and he convinced us that Bobby 2.0 would have no such issues, but that turned out to be a bit off the mark, to say the least.
I think we all agree that Ramsey and TJ going all-in on Smrt’s recommendations was not the correct path.
Unlike drug deals, players can still play ball without breaking any rules. Schools can still get players without breaking any rules. Users cannot get high and dealers cannot get paid without breaking the law. I guess time will tell.
Wow! I expected an analogy like this, drug dealers and college basketball players, especially from someone named cyanide.
Funny, what I read said: cyanide_78 said:
Or can’t you remember? Don’t do drugs! Bubba!
Posted by Zipp yesterday at 5:42PM. Then I responded later. Feel free to see for yourself. You probably should since you don’t seem to want to take my word for it
It didn't matter...your reply was irrelevant.
Pick any analogy you want like prostitution... A situation where counterparties to a crime each wanna commit that crime damn near guarantees that it will be committed.
In the pay-for-play discussion... If you're pure as the driven snow and take those kids anyway, you're at risk.
There are no mitigating arguments to rationalize what slapd!cks do...
Then what do you suggest? Seriously, I am curious. I’ve seen you make your arguments about recruiting before and it’s all been rooted in fear and paranoia. Would you prefer your school to pursue only 1 and 2 star athletes who are low risk?
The top 15-20 players of each class is where the money is, a $125k-ish going rate apparently. The market goes off a deep cliff very quickly after that. If you stay in the Top 40-100 range, you're clearly safe, which is where Pitino regularly recruited and where the class next year is as well.
All this applies to the past of course. Since the FBI thing broke there’s been no further evidence of pay for play. That is the point I made earlier. While I’m sure recruiting is not 110% clean, I believe it’s the cleanest today than it’s ever been and I do challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
So as a rival fan I truly hope you guys stay away from the top 15-20 players each year. You know, just to be safe.
