i reiterate. UofL is SuCkS superbowl.

[Mayoman]

Anybody ever ask Denny Crum lately about what his stance is on the BB series? I remember him saying that "athletes like to compete......and they like to play the best competition that is available to test their own skills and prowess."

He was taught by the Wizard of Westbrook, the much hated/maligned John Wooden. Why was he so hated? Because he won. And he won a lot. And he recruited the top talent in the country on a consistent basis. And he won some more.....and to my recollection, he never backed away from any challenger......and he beat the other best teams in the FF4 on a yearly basis.....a lot. I did not like him very much in 1975 when UCLA beat the Cards by one point in the national semi final game....75 to 74. A real heart breaker for me at the time. For had the Cards won, they would have played uk for the NC.....in what would have been the real 'Dream Game' of all time for me up to that time.

10 out of 12 championships is mightily impressive. DC learned his profession from him very well but the end of Crum's career was much different then Wooden's end. Crum felt very strongly that uk should play UofL on an annual basis.....in fact upon his arrival he openly challenged them in the media to stop ducking us. 12 years later......the 2 teams met in the NCAA-T and the Dream Game went into the history books. That was the beginning of something beneficial to both programs.

Something that I wanted (as well as many other CBB fans in this state) became a yearly game after that. A game for the many, not just a few. Anyone that proposes to end that game for any reason is the one missing the 'big picture' and subject to be labeled the small thinker. That is a matter of perspective. And really......who gets to decide which perspective is the correct one? The few or the many? Or somewhere in between?

Some where in all this discussion the focus was narrowed down to 'its all about the BB game'. Let me re-clarify my position.

I stated the rivalry is 'the rivalry' for "All Sports", and to do away with a rivalry that generates so much interest and money to be kept in the state would not be prudent for either school.

As human beings, part of growing and maturing, is learning and accepting that life is not perfect and that our biases and prejudices need to be identified and exorcised like the demons they are.

The recent article about William Gay cited on this forum is interesting In it he made the comment "Athletes want to compete." They want to show what they can do against the best" etc.
You get the point. Denying athletes the opportunity to play the rivalry game, especially in basketball, and football, would be just as wrong as when Rupp decided to play God and refuse to play anymore for any reason just because of his fear and embarrassment of losing the game in 1959. Not ever a good reason in any sport. Man up and compete and let the chips fall where they may.

I wonder what the athletes at UofL think? Maybe Jack and Howie could do a survey of all the current (and or past) members of all the sports teams at UofL and see what they think about this rivalry and whether it should continue. And what it means to them to play that game once a year.

The results would be interesting to know and likely reveal insights not already brought up on this board. This thread has been quite interesting to me and one of my favorites in a long time. Peace.

 

[zipp]

...I don't take time out of my day on a daily basis to try and convince people how little uk means to me. I just don't mention them.

Missed the point... It's not about how little the game means to me or whether you believe me. It's how little it should mean to you, the message it sends otherwise, and the benefits by not playing.

So far, except for a few of you, I haven't seen reasons offered why the teams should play other than you wanna play. I respect that, but that logic doesn't really translate to how these issues are managed in general. Does the U of L athletics department send out surveys about who we as fans wanna play? How many times does Pitino when talking about teams on the schedule say "I just wanted to play these guys"?

Quite honestly, wanting to play is not a good enough reason.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[earsky]

I don't care if we play them or not...just don't want it to end this way.

 

[zipp]

It would be dumb to end either the football or basketball series. This is the area that moves the needle on tv ratings, why end the biggest non conference rivalry in all of cbb?

I'm not researching the underlying numbers, but I don't think you're right. The only "TV ratings" that really matter in this market are national. Not enough people in the Louisville area.

And I don't think even the basketball game garners big ratings. If it did, you wouldn't find the game buried on ESPN2 or played at noon the day after Xmas. ESPN and the ACC don't see U of L-LPT as the national draw we think it is.

They might even prefer a cross-market game like Indiana-U of L.

If you have numbers that say otherwise, I'll revisit that opinion.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

I don't care if we play them or not...just don't want it to end this way.

How do you wanna end it?

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[earsky]

Honestly?I'm too old to get out there and kick a little arse on the court,although I do still have the eligibility.I'd prefer the Cards start to kick their arses for me.

I can't stomach the thought of hearing it from uk fans everywhere that it ended for a reason other than the real one.Even footing would work for me.

 

[zipp]

Mayo, thanks for taking so much time to express a strong counterargument. At least you're presenting a basis for debate...

I understand the nostalgic element in this. I can relate firsthand having lived through those years and experiences. But I'm afraid our thinking from 40 years ago may not apply anymore. And you're going back even further evoking the opinions and positions of John Wooden. It's a different world.

I'll simply reiterate... How would it be so wrong for this to be considered by U of L when any number of other rivalries like this one have gone by the wayside? In this era of money rules, it's evidently not significantly affecting ($$) those programs. You don't think Texas-A&M was a big rivalry worth considerable money to broadcasters and advertisers? You don't think fans questioned it? Now years later, do any of us miss it today?

It's funny you bring the athletes into this... It seems like every game every year, some local reporter has to put a microphone in one of these kid's faces and ask the same asinine questions... Do you know about this rivalry? Are you learning? What does it mean to you? And then kids from both teams are seen on the field or court hugging each other before the game. The upshot: it means a helluva lot more to the locals who can't see past it.

But I'm good with any survey or vehicle to bring us hard data. A good part of the reason we debate is because we have no data. Thanks again for your POVs.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Mayoman]

Missed the point... It's not about how little the game means to me or whether you believe me. It's how little it should mean to you, the message it sends otherwise, and the benefits by not playing.

So far, except for a few of you, I haven't seen reasons offered why the teams should play other than you wanna play. I respect that, but that logic doesn't really translate to how these issues are managed in general. Does the U of L athletics department send out surveys about who we as fans wanna play? How many times does Pitino when talking about teams on the schedule say "I just wanted to play these guys"?

Quite honestly, wanting to play is not a good enough reason.

"Elite program", my a$$...

Honestly, not wanting to play them is even a worse position. How much it means to me or anyone else who wants the game is not up to you to say or decide for me. I can think for myself and decide what my preferences are. I'm a Cardinal fan who enjoys watching the 2 schools compete against each other win or lose. No earthly good reason to take that away from those who have that now or want to keep it in the future.

Maybe its time that UofL does a survey about what the athletes want? Or, what the fans want: That has proved to be a successful business mode for many businesses in all types of areas. Who is paying the bills or playing in the games.? Neither you or me are the athletes competing.

As far as CRP goes about the schedule....why have so many of the non-conf games had ties to the coaches (former players or assistants) of teams we see pop up from year to year. Is that because he just wanted to play these guys for no other reason?

What exactly are the benefits of not playing them again? or is it just because that suits your agenda?

You favor ending something that happened because of great fanfare and fan demand, just because, in your mind, the games are no longer needed. To hell with every other fan that wants to keep on playing a rivalry game. And you label that position as being small minded? Really; do you really believe you are in the majority position here?

If you are in the majority position....I can respect that....not sure you are though. Quite a few of the die hard, regular posters on this board disagree with you.

Note: Our posts were being typed at the same time and I didn't have the most recent post of yours before typing mine. What that said.....you keep bringing up the TX vs A&M rivalry game. Have you ever lived in Texas? I haven't lived there either......but I did live in New Mexico, 8 miles from the TX, NM border.

I can only give anecdotal opinions about this.....but the people I know/knew from there had some very hard feelings about that breakup and A&M being the one to go to the SEC......so your example of using the end of that rivalry is not a pure apple to apple comparison of a typical breakup...and neither is the Ne vs OK breakup for the same reason. Could they play as a non-conf game in the near future.....sure, maybe when the fan demand makes it so.....and I have some very close friends in NE and TX that definitely would like to see that happen too.

You too have raised the level of debate on this subject matter.....I have really enjoyed it. But man, we need to get together and talk about this over a beer (or beverage of choice) the next time I can get into Louisville. Agree?

 

[zipp]

Honestly?I'm too old to get out there and kick a little arse on the court,although I do still have the eligibility.I'd prefer the Cards start to kick their arses for me.

I can't stomach the thought of hearing it from uk fans everywhere that it ended for a reason other than the real one.Even footing would work for me.

I'm pretty much there with you as far as personal competition.

But you're not ever gonna get where you wanna go to end it in your way. Too many sports to gain "equal footing". You're always gonna lag somewhere.

If you drop all of the games, you can't logically be concluded as afraid to play or that you don't like the game results. You're wiping the field with LPT in football, and that series would be ended as well. We're clearly the dominant program in baseball, and we're giving up our only regular season game with paid admissions.

And I'm not sure we're ever gonna get where guys like you want in basketball (at least "even footing") as long as LPT wants that win so much more than we do. That feeds into my logic in ending it for them.

I kinda knew that was your reason before I asked the question. The problem is you'll never end it on that basis IMO.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

...Dropping them solves a multitude of other issues for some of our fans...

• We have a losing streak in women's basketball.
• We lose too often in men's basketball.
• They offer no opposition in football and kill our SOS.
• They're headed in that same direction in baseball.
• They don't really care about any other sports.
• They treat us like a Super Bowl. (The ultimate show of respect that we don't reciprocate...)
• And they get WAY too many fans into our home basketball game with them...

Mayo, this is from the first page. And the big problem as I see it is the 2nd-to-last bullet. Clearly, we're their Super Bowl in basketball a lot more than they are ours. So, the results you see today aren't changing significantly, and that's a big problem for many of our fans. As we sit today, aren't we AGAIN the biggest win on their schedule?

You know how their own coach talks disrespectfully about being other teams' Super Bowl. Do you think they'd hesitate one minute dropping every SEC away game on their schedule if they had that control? Of course they would for the very reason I articulate.

You've had two long term HOF coaches, and they both have losing records against LPT. It's not because LPT is the much better program over a long timespan. It's because this basketball game is a loser's gambit from U of L's position.

No one has to embrace my opinion or vice versa. But I'm not asking this be decided by opinion. It needs to be decided by what makes sense. The LPT game no longer does, really, in any sport.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Mayoman]

Mayo, this is from the first page. And the big problem as I see it is the 2nd-to-last bullet. Clearly, we're their Super Bowl in basketball a lot more than they are ours. So, the results you see today aren't changing significantly, and that's a big problem for many of our fans. As we sit today, aren't we AGAIN the biggest win on their schedule?

You know how their own coach talks disrespectfully about being other teams' Super Bowl. Do you think they'd hesitate one minute dropping every SEC away game on their schedule if they had that control? Of course they would for the very reason I articulate.

You've had two long term HOF coaches, and they both have losing records against LPT. It's not because LPT is the much better program over a long timespan. It's because this basketball game is a loser's gambit from U of L's position.

No one has to embrace my opinion or vice versa. But I'm not asking this be decided by opinion. It needs to be decided by what makes sense. The LPT game no longer does, really, in any sport.

"Elite program", my a$$...

Quit confusing me with all those facts!

What makes sense to one does not always make sense to another. I feel pretty strongly that what Rupp decided to do was wrong for many reasons. UofL is better than that now....take the high road
and keep the opportunity in play and compete vs them.....and beat them, or not. I enjoy the games as the entertainment it was meant to be. Don't take my cookie away from me...Mr Grinch. But if that happens, can we play Indiana instead? I would like that too, Bobby Knight be dammed.

 

[zipp]

Understood. And I realize it's hypocritical of me to be using the same standards that we criticized at LPT for years as support for my position. There's a subtle difference however... They don't wanna couch their attitudes toward U of L today or yesterday as "disrespect" even though we all recognize it as that. Me OTOH, I don't have that issue nor do any of us as fans. In fact, as we all know, I love disrespecting the hell outta them.

Jurich of course always has to "take the high road". A big hurdle for him would be how to do this gracefully. Would have to be based in some sort of big picture agenda that he and U of L have. Unless a key incident was to occur, e.g., a U of L coach physically attacked by LPT fans. That would actually make the task easy.

Thanks for the rational back and forth.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Mayoman]

I don't care much for Calipari either......but have they ever played in a game they lost that wasn't the others team 'SuperBowl?' or that the refs cheated them in?

I don't look at this BB game as a 'Super Bowl' game.....I view it as the best non-conference game in all of college BB. I always thought that using a FB term for CBB was lame anyway.....just like Cal.

It is a matter of state notariety to me....that 2 great BB programs reside in the state of KY. Not having lived in Louisville since 1976 only intensifies the feelings experienced whenever the teams play each other in any sport.....but especially FB and BB for me. If you haven't lived away from Ky for an extended period of time, that may be a hard concept for you to wrap your head around.....but that is just me.

I also disagree with you about whether there is much interest outside the state for these games. I had plenty of watch parties with fans of CBB and CFB when these rivalry games were viewed. Most all of those non-Kentuckians pulled for UofL by the way......some of them were alumni and some just fans of the sport.

Not everyone that graduated from UofL stayed in the state, and the Cards fans that went into the military, like myself, are scattered all over the US and foreign countries; we watch these games with great fervor. Whether the games are on ESPN, ESPN2 or U or whatever one of the 6 channels I get...they are all the same in my eyes and I attach no hierarchy for one channel over the other....just so they are on TV that is the BL.

 

[Mike'sMarbles]

I know this is the basketball board, but it seems like this topic is open to discussion of other sports. I think the argument for dropping them in football is stronger than basketball. I really don't see any advantages to playing them in FB, other than selling a bunch of tickets every other year and making our fans happy beating up on UK.

However, if the ACC wants us to continue playing them as a showcase game in football I won't complain. We have to help our league out and take one for the team sometimes. It does make the ACC-SEC challenge in FB look better since it's practically an auto-win for the ACC.

But for our program, I don't see how playing UK helps us in any way, going forward. If we could get a slight upgrade of even a Vanderbilt or Mississippi State, I'd be all for it. MSU is at least competitive once in a while. And beating them would mean a little bit more in the eyes of the committee. Beating UK is almost like taking a loss in football, your strength of schedule gets dragged into the mud just playing the game. It could really cost us down the road even beating them soundly, if we're in the conversation for a major Bowl or the Playoffs.

 

[zipp]

I know this is the basketball board, but it seems like this topic is open to discussion of other sports. I think the argument for dropping them in football is stronger than basketball. I really don't see any advantages to playing them in FB, other than selling a bunch of tickets every other year and making our fans happy beating up on UK.

However, if the ACC wants us to continue playing them as a showcase game in football I won't complain. We have to help our league out and take one for the team sometimes. It does make the ACC-SEC challenge in FB look better since it's practically an auto-win for the ACC.

But for our program, I don't see how playing UK helps us in any way, going forward. If we could get a slight upgrade of even a Vanderbilt or Mississippi State, I'd be all for it. MSU is at least competitive once in a while. And beating them would mean a little bit more in the eyes of the committee. Beating UK is almost like taking a loss in football, your strength of schedule gets dragged into the mud just playing the game. It could really cost us down the road even beating them soundly, if we're in the conversation for a major Bowl or the Playoffs.

I'm not in favor of just dropping them in football although I agree with your analysis. The problem as I see it is they WANT to just drop the football series. And I'm not at all in favor of giving them what they want.

That move also puts the competitive balance even more out of balance. They're dominating the sports they love--basketball--and those rivalry games would continue if football only was dropped. As much as I don't care about them, I don't like giving them that opportunity.

Everything needs to be dropped.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[mrFootballFan]

Bottom line here fellows is Rick has been unable to beat Cal! I rest my case!

Cal cant beat .....

 

[bloodguard13]

The Cards have lost 8 of 9 in Mens Basketball, 5 in a row in Womens Basketball, and have won 5 of the last 9 in football, it doesn't make much sense continuing the rivalry. Next year UK looks to be very good again, it would probably be a good time to end all of them. It could take a very long time to catch up.

 

[rockycard]

The Cards have lost 8 of 9 in Mens Basketball, 5 in a row in Womens Basketball, and have won 5 of the last 9 in football, it doesn't make much sense continuing the rivalry. Next year UK looks to be very good again, it would probably be a good time to end all of them. It could take a very long time to catch up.

5 of 9? How about 5 in a row or 9 of the last 13? Our women go farther than them every year, so that loss doesn't matter, our basketball team has the most recent championship, so....

 

[bloodguard13]

5 of 9? How about 5 in a row or 9 of the last 13? Our women go farther than them every year, so that loss doesn't matter, our basketball team has the most recent championship, so....

Just saying that i agree with Zip, seems like a great time to end this thing.

 

[thecycle21]

The only way Jurich drops the UK game is if it becomes too nasty for the players and coaches. The game results mean nothing after a week. The only thing that really matters is what happens in March. Bottom line Louisville has had tremendous success with Pitino just not against UK. That game would matter if the program as a whole was down, but only as another piece of data in determining a coaches fate.

 

[JohnKBA]

The only way Jurich drops the UK game is if it becomes too nasty for the players and coaches. The game results mean nothing after a week. The only thing that really matters is what happens in March. Bottom line Louisville has had tremendous success with Pitino just not against UK. That game would matter if the program as a whole was down, but only as another piece of data in determining a coaches fate.

The players in this "rivalry" are mostly buddies nowadays. With Cal bringing in a new slate of starters every year there is no time for familiarity to build. Look at the 2012 Final Four, the burger boys from both teams were putting videos on Twitter and Instagram chumming around. The fanbases are the only entities that give a real damn about the result. To the players it's just another game. Zipp is probably right, the game doesn't make a lot of sense to play anymore. There are plenty of other great programs out there that UK and U of L could sign home and homes with and it would probably kill a lot of the animosity between the fans with no annual game to talk about.

 

[mrFootballFan]

The Cards have lost 8 of 9 in Mens Basketball, 5 in a row in Womens Basketball, and have won 5 of the last 9 in football, it doesn't make much sense continuing the rivalry. Next year UK looks to be very good again, it would probably be a good time to end all of them. It could take a very long time to catch up.

Uk troll

 

[Mike'sMarbles]

5 of 9? How about 5 in a row or 9 of the last 13? Our women go farther than them every year, so that loss doesn't matter, our basketball team has the most recent championship, so....

Yeah, that 5 of 9 cracked me up. It's 5 in a row, dominant. I don't know if this is a UK fan in disguise but it's a pretty peculiar way to frame the current streak. It's also the only way to frame it that is even remotely positive for UK. And, as much as that bends over backwards to try to make UK look good it still makes them look horrible, which really says something about their program. Even when trying to bend reality to the extreme UK still looks bad.

 

[bloodguard13]

Yeah, that 5 of 9 cracked me up. It's 5 in a row, dominant. I don't know if this is a UK fan in disguise but it's a pretty peculiar way to frame the current streak. It's also the only way to frame it that is even remotely positive for UK. And, as much as that bends over backwards to try to make UK look good it still makes them look horrible, which really says something about their program. Even when trying to bend reality to the extreme UK still looks bad.

Mike, i am a UK fan, i ain't trying to disguise it, just showing how easy it is to spin something to fit an agenda. Just like saying that 5 wins in a row is dominating, if that were true than you are saying that UK women are dominating UL women, when in fact the women could turn it around and win 5 in a row. Pretty much exactly what happened in football after UK won 4 in a row, UL turned around and won 5 in a row. You can call that dominating if it fits your agenda. Just like the Cards could win 8 of the next 9, but thats probably the least likely to happen. Jk

 

[JohnKBA]

Yeah, that 5 of 9 cracked me up. It's 5 in a row, dominant. I don't know if this is a UK fan in disguise but it's a pretty peculiar way to frame the current streak. It's also the only way to frame it that is even remotely positive for UK. And, as much as that bends over backwards to try to make UK look good it still makes them look horrible, which really says something about their program. Even when trying to bend reality to the extreme UK still looks bad.

Any UK fan trying to paint the football programs as remotely close to being competitive right now is, to quote Adam Schein, on planet delusional.

 

[nccardfan]

I actually believe that we need this game more than ever. Although I enjoy the 20 point beat downs, there is no way to gauge how the team will do in conference and NCAA tournament play. How we did against UK is usually a way pollsters and selection committee judge us. Not against the western michigan's. And although it may be unpleasant to CRP, I'm sure it tells a lot about his teams. I also think it is a challenge for our guys to see how they measure up against the so called NBA talent.

 

[WattersonSpeedDemon]

Yeah, that 5 of 9 cracked me up. It's 5 in a row, dominant. I don't know if this is a UK fan in disguise but it's a pretty peculiar way to frame the current streak. It's also the only way to frame it that is even remotely positive for UK. And, as much as that bends over backwards to try to make UK look good it still makes them look horrible, which really says something about their program. Even when trying to bend reality to the extreme UK still looks bad.

Well, should they lie to make us feel better.? I mean, seriously, is there any sport in which we own the lifetime series against them? We just finally tied them in football.

Getting rid of the series? No. It would make us look like a bunch of sore losers and no they don't need us much as you like to think. They're not going to replace us with a cupcake and it's not going to be that hard for their program to run out and find very worthy high ranked opponents.

 

[Mike'sMarbles]

Well, should they lie to make us feel better.? I mean, seriously, is there any sport in which we own the lifetime series against them? We just finally tied them in football.

Getting rid of the series? No. It would make us look like a bunch of sore losers and no they don't need us much as you like to think. They're not going to replace us with a cupcake and it's not going to be that hard for their program to run out and find very worthy high ranked opponents.

What they should do is pick a statistic that has meaning beyond trying to whitewash. Look at the last game, or the last several games, or the last 10 games in a series, or the modern era record, or overall record, makes more sense. Picking the last 9 games looks suspicious. It was the only way to put current events in a remotely positive light for UK's football program.

It's not UK's fault that UofL didn't try to compete in football between 1912-1924. So they deserve those wins. Great, good for them. It's also not UofL's fault we've run off 5 in a row and gone 14-8 in the modern era of the series, when UK hasn't been trying to compete in football.

UK needs Louisville in football more than we need them. That wasn't the case in the past but it is now. The SEC rule is UK has to play one P5 opponent outside of the SEC every year. Who other than Louisville would want to schedule UK in football for a home-home? IU used to play them but that was before the Clappy-Cal spat. UK hurts a team's SOS, and isn't going to bring the fans out for a home game. And then you have to go play at UK every other year. Why in the world would anybody but Louisville sign up for that?

 

[zipp]

...I don't look at this BB game as a 'Super Bowl' game...

Nor should you, that's out of perspective. But that's the problem--they look at you that way. And I don't disagree that's how the average SEC team looks at LPT in basketball. Understandably. Their coach points that out, and I agree.

The issue is we don't hold them in the same regard. You say "best nonconference game" and "state notoriety". But that's not translating to wins. Matt W. says he wants to win the game more than any other one on the schedule. But either that's not enough, or not enough others feel as strongly.

I posed this question before... Do you think if the results were reversed, LPT fans and admin. would be as relaxed as we are about it? Hell no. There's no other logical reason how and why they win this game disproportionately. They demand it.

And we don't.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

Well, should they lie to make us feel better.? I mean, seriously, is there any sport in which we own the lifetime series against them? We just finally tied them in football.

Getting rid of the series? No. It would make us look like a bunch of sore losers and no they don't need us much as you like to think. They're not going to replace us with a cupcake and it's not going to be that hard for their program to run out and find very worthy high ranked opponents.

That lifetime series stuff ain't that big a deal. Great that we just overtook them in football, but no one but LPT fans give an ish what happened a half century ago. It's about what's going on today and recently.

They WILL replace us in football with a cupcake. No question about that. In basketball, they'll go after another good team because they have to. Their basketball schedule's too weak. And that's fine. Another good team will probably have better luck than we have.

When you drop them in ALL sports, you're not dropping them because you're losing. Because you aren't. You're dropping them because the games benefit LPT more than U of L by a longshot.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

I actually believe that we need this game more than ever. Although I enjoy the 20 point beat downs, there is no way to gauge how the team will do in conference and NCAA tournament play. How we did against UK is usually a way pollsters and selection committee judge us. Not against the western michigan's. And although it may be unpleasant to CRP, I'm sure it tells a lot about his teams. I also think it is a challenge for our guys to see how they measure up against the so called NBA talent.

You just replace them with another good team from the B10 or B12, home and away. Maybe showcase games at regional sites made for TV. Would have to get us a better place on the TV schedule than we've had lately with LPT.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[nccardfan]

We already played a big 10 team and the only other team that would make sense would be Kansas. I would still take the in state rivalry over that prospect.

 

[JohnKBA]

Neither team NEEDS the other. Both could go find equal opponents to play in the OOC. Even if both took a small step down it wouldn't matter - SOS is the most overrated stat in college basketball. Football yes it matters because you have a committee that weighs it when picking the playoff teams. In basketball, many teams have proven they can get to the final four and win a title when playing a middling schedule. If anything, upgrading the UK game on the schedule would be a big help to U of L in case they ever need a big OOC win to push them into the playoff if they ever happen to win the ACC with say one loss.

On a complete and total side note, Vandy shot 25 free throws to UK's 6 at Rupp today. Those pesky paid off refs......

 

[zipp]

Here's the point I tried to make about the LPT game when you guys talk about schedule strength... It has been almost 13 freakin' years since we have had a quality LPT win--December of 2003.

We won the game in 2008. That LPT team had a #58 RPI by season's end and made the NCAA tourney as an 11-seed.

We won the game in 2009, and that team went to the NIT.

And we won the game in 2012, and that team again went to the NIT. Those are our wins since 2003.

Now consider in those three wins... We almost lost the one in 2009--winning by three points over their NIT team on Sosa's last second shot. And we won by a similar margin over their other NIT team in 2012, this time with our 2013 national championship team.

Had we won this year (12-26-2015), LPT would likely be unranked at this time with the possibility of again going to the NIT.

Before anyone attributes those results entirely to Pitino Lite and the OAD phenomenon, our combined record against Hall, Pitino, Sutton, Smith, and Gillispie was 11-17. Not terrible, but clearly not as well as you'd expect considering we always had a HOF coach sitting on our bench. Even if you take Pitino's wins at LPT out of the numbers, they still have an 11-9 edge in the modern series with the remaining four LPT coaches. And I'd take Crum or Pitino over any of those four.

Fine if you wanna play that basketball game. But you're just beating your head against the wall hoping to gain the upper hand in this series. I'm quoting you actual data that goes back decades. Data that show you won't win the game anywhere close to the frequency that you'll lose. Data that show the game really isn't worth winning even when you do.

And you now have the cover--ACC membership and a big winning edge in football--to justifiably claim that playing any games with LPT no longer makes sense.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Blueaz]

Never would I say that i agree with zipp. But he makes sense (except it is not UKs Super Bowl).
IMO the "rivalry " part of the games would mean more if was every two or three years in the ncaat.
I would rather UK get a home/home ooc with a west coast school

 

[JohnKBA]

Here's the point I tried to make about the LPT game when you guys talk about schedule strength... It has been almost 13 freakin' years since we have had a quality LPT win--December of 2003.

We won the game in 2008. That LPT team had a #58 RPI by season's end and made the NCAA tourney as an 11-seed.

We won the game in 2009, and that team went to the NIT.

And we won the game in 2012, and that team again went to the NIT. Those are our wins since 2003.

Now consider in those three wins... We almost lost the one in 2009--winning by three points over their NIT team on Sosa's last second shot. And we won by a similar margin over their other NIT team in 2012, this time with our 2013 national championship team.

Had we won this year (12-26-2015), LPT would likely be unranked at this time with the possibility of again going to the NIT.

Before anyone attributes those results entirely to Pitino Lite and the OAD phenomenon, our combined record against Hall, Sutton, Smith, and Gillispie was 11-17. Not terrible, but clearly not as well as you'd expect considering we always had a HOF coach sitting on our bench. In fact, I'd take Crum or Pitino over any of those LPT coaches.

Fine for you to wanna play the LPT basketball game. But you're just beating your head against the wall hoping to gain the upper hand in this series. I'm quoting you actual data that goes back decades. Data that show you won't win the game anywhere close to the frequency that you'll lose. Data that show the game really isn't worth winning even when you do.

And you now have the cover--ACC membership and a big winning edge in football--to justifiably claim that playing any games with LPT no longer makes sense.

"Elite program", my a$$...

I'm on record as agreeing with you, but you just wrote a whole lot that basically says "we aren't capable of beating a decent UK team." I think we should kill the series to improve fan relations, you appear to be making the case that it's not worth playing the game because you can only beat UK when we stink, which seems awfully fatalistic. It's awesome circular logic though.

 

[zipp]

I'm on record as agreeing with you, but you just wrote a whole lot that basically says "we aren't capable of beating a decent UK team." I think we should kill the series to improve fan relations, you appear to be making the case that it's not worth playing the game because you can only beat UK when we stink, which seems awfully fatalistic. It's awesome circular logic though.

"Fatalistic" is not my nature. In fact, I'm usually an optimist. But I don't keep doing the same things and expect--or even hope--for different results.

The logical conclusion IMO is that there are other factors at work besides we're not usually good enough. I've already said that I'd rather have our basketball coaches. The current LPT coach usually presents us with a sizable talent disadvantage, but that wasn't really the case this year nor is it every year. Even before his arrival, however, we were losing more than winning with better coaches. And the talent comparison before 2009 wasn't that tilted one way or the other.

I mentioned previously that I can really think of only one U of L player who played well over his head in a victory in this series--Samaki Walker. But I can think of any number of LPT kids who have in LPT victories. Their coaches outperform and so do their players in this particular game. And there's only the Super Bowl explanation for that. When you look at our respective schedules, that also makes perfect sense.

And that ain't changing anytime soon if ever. They're proud to be a basketball school, and we're not. They look at this game like a Super Bowl--even their football and women's basketball teams overachieve--and we do not. We're not embarrassed to say that, nor do we want to change. The results in these series don't bother us terribly because we have higher priorities. IMO those are compelling reasons to turn the page.

If you don't like them and don't care to do them any favors, you have all the personal reason you need to want to drop them in all sports. They're not your big brother, so you don't need them as a yardstick. If you must, thank them for thirty years of competition, and wish them well until our paths cross again.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[JohnKBA]

Great points Zipp. Thanks as usual for the civil back and forth sir.

I'm a UK fan FYI

 

[zipp]

Cool!

 

[JohnKBA]

Cool!

Wasn't sure you you understood where I was coming from. Great discussion here though.