Payne Was Dealt A Bad Hand At UofL
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Lots of coaches have had to deal with a bad hand, but rarely does that coach look and behave like someone who never really coached.
KP failed because he was trying to learn on the job without the necessary energy and intelligence needed to overcome all the obstacles to win. He needed several all conference players to hide his deficiencies and we all know that wasn't happening.
Then there was the pressure to win now because of the programs elite status that needed to be revived, and the fans were not going to give an inch when the team kept losing to low major schools.
It was really over before it really got started after that loss to Lemoyne in the exhibition game. Everyone just had to wait two years to do something about it.
KP failed because he was trying to learn on the job without the necessary energy and intelligence needed to overcome all the obstacles to win. He needed several all conference players to hide his deficiencies and we all know that wasn't happening.
Then there was the pressure to win now because of the programs elite status that needed to be revived, and the fans were not going to give an inch when the team kept losing to low major schools.
It was really over before it really got started after that loss to Lemoyne in the exhibition game. Everyone just had to wait two years to do something about it.
If what we saw was Payne "making the best out of it" then I can't imagine what his worst would be.
He's just a bad fit for a HC job @ this level. He wasn't learning anything on the job or trying to learn either. He thinks his approach was appropriate and he thought he was doing a good job. Nothing he observed all those years was all that relevant to a standard HC job at this level. "Watching guys live out their dreams" aka getting 'em ready for draft night - that's a thing for the UK/Duke approach the last 10-15 yrs. Now it's an Arky thing instead of UK. But that's not the thing most everywhere else.
His method is 100% player centric but you could argue he didn't really cut it there either since he had to kick a guy off the team and another guy had a mystery medical issue. Who knows if any players were returning if he was? Bottom line, most players have a strong relationship with their HC, so even if you want to argue he pulled that off that's not cutting edge stuff.
The job requires a lot of different things with winning and some sort of relationship with your fans being up there on the importance scale, he failed on all that. Didn't care about the fans only brought them up in his final cringe presser.
The hire was important to a lot of people and they hate how it went. He was just the wrong guy to hitch that wagon onto.
His method is 100% player centric but you could argue he didn't really cut it there either since he had to kick a guy off the team and another guy had a mystery medical issue. Who knows if any players were returning if he was? Bottom line, most players have a strong relationship with their HC, so even if you want to argue he pulled that off that's not cutting edge stuff.
The job requires a lot of different things with winning and some sort of relationship with your fans being up there on the importance scale, he failed on all that. Didn't care about the fans only brought them up in his final cringe presser.
The hire was important to a lot of people and they hate how it went. He was just the wrong guy to hitch that wagon onto.
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I’m not sure how it could have been better explained than this ^^^^.
Had UofL not been in spot that it was in - someone like Payne with his complete lack of experience would have never been hired. And I’m no card player but typically when you get dealt a bad hand - you walk away with nothing - not 14M.
He was dealt a bad hand but did nothing to help himself. The whole situation is sad. Hopefully our new coach will get the team normalized and we can all move on to happier things.
Never really recruited. Never was out in the public, nor attempted to be with the fans. Worked schedule was that of an assistant NBA coach. Some practice times, then games. Nothing else.
Maybe it was UL that was dealt a bad hand.
I do tend to agree that he was dealt a bad hand … imagine having no actual experience, but getting the shot of a lifetime at an elite level job … then realizing at that same time the elite level job is facing major “head winds” that would challenge even a Hall of Fame level coach to navigate….
He was at least smart enough that he knew he shouldn’t have taken the job. He just didn’t have the wisdom to let it pass.
In my opinion, the team he assembled in 2023-24 could have become a borderline NCAA tourney team this coming year with him as coach. But he lost the fan base with the ridiculously bad 12-52 record in his two seasons. That he was learning on the job was very apparent with the ridiculous roster construction in both years, and the completely “tone deaf” decision to go with a talented but terribly inexperienced roster in year 2.
He was at least smart enough that he knew he shouldn’t have taken the job. He just didn’t have the wisdom to let it pass.
In my opinion, the team he assembled in 2023-24 could have become a borderline NCAA tourney team this coming year with him as coach. But he lost the fan base with the ridiculously bad 12-52 record in his two seasons. That he was learning on the job was very apparent with the ridiculous roster construction in both years, and the completely “tone deaf” decision to go with a talented but terribly inexperienced roster in year 2.
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Sorry, he was never the victim here. He was paid handsomely for 2 years and received a huge pay out when he left. He spent years as an assistant college coach but failed miserably; something that in hindsight was predictable. If he was dealt a bad hand, he should have “checked” after the first year, but was not about to refuse UL money till he was fired.
Completely agree that he was in no way a victim.
Looking back at this whole situation … I can’t help but wonder how much better off we would have been to ask Mike Pegues to take the job on an interim basis for 2022-23, paying him $1.5 million or so. And when the inevitable press and fan backlash hit for doing so, you admit that the NCAA crap hanging over the program way too long made keeping Mike Pegues for another year the best option available.
Looking back at this whole situation … I can’t help but wonder how much better off we would have been to ask Mike Pegues to take the job on an interim basis for 2022-23, paying him $1.5 million or so. And when the inevitable press and fan backlash hit for doing so, you admit that the NCAA crap hanging over the program way too long made keeping Mike Pegues for another year the best option available.
I’m with you except the UK/Duke approach. It’s only the SuCk approach. Coach K could actually coach and had multiple NC to prove it. They put players in the NBA but make no mistake his goal was NC’s.
Calamari can’t coach XO’s and he’s proven it over and over. And his goal of putting players in the NBA was to hide his deficiencies.
I don’t have a problem with KP learning on the job. It’s that he didn’t seem to do much learning that got me.
There were so many "better options", and I agree that Pegues was one that would have been more positive for all concerned.
The hand he should have been dealt was a backhand!
It should be noted that HOF coach Denzel (Denny) Crum arrived (like Kenny Payne) at UL, also after serving as an assistant coach from a high level D1 College Program. In fairness, it should be noted that Denny had served as HC at Pierce Jr. College before spending 4 years as an assistant coach to John Wooden at UCLA. However, anyone who suggests that KP deserves any excuse for his poor performance at UL, based on "lacking D1 Head Coaching experience", need look no further that Crum's performance as why that excuse is totally meritless. Payne had over 20 years of coaching experience as an assistant between time at Oregon, UK and the Knicks, of which 6 of those years at UK, he was promoted to "Assistant Head Coach" under Calipari.
It may indeed be recorded as UL making the mistake in hiring KP (no arguments here), but KP accepted the job knowing more about UL, the HC job itself and the environment in both the city of Louisville and the Commonwealth of Ky as well as anyone could possibly have. Further, KP might have as much, if not more experience with the NBA in terms of recruiting HS, as anyone in all of college coaching.
In truth, KP was "dealt an exceptional hand"; but unfortunately, it was one that he alone failed to take advantage of, right from the very beginning, all the way to the end.
It may indeed be recorded as UL making the mistake in hiring KP (no arguments here), but KP accepted the job knowing more about UL, the HC job itself and the environment in both the city of Louisville and the Commonwealth of Ky as well as anyone could possibly have. Further, KP might have as much, if not more experience with the NBA in terms of recruiting HS, as anyone in all of college coaching.
In truth, KP was "dealt an exceptional hand"; but unfortunately, it was one that he alone failed to take advantage of, right from the very beginning, all the way to the end.
Almost nothing is exactly alike. It's about the philosophy/method of mostly stacking OAD 5* guys and overwhelming opponents. UK and Duke were doing that, no other programs were. Cal from the beginning K co-opted it and did it better yeah.
The strategy was uncommon and there's not enough 5* guys to go around for co-opting it and applying that strategy most anywhere else, or much witnessed by staffs to make much observed useful nearly anywhere else. Most Duke former K assistants are mediocre at best, Cal's tree is the worst.
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True but Coach K had many many years of the old system of coaching prior to jumping on the OAD train. He proved he was a top notch coach. Why none of his assistants have been successful who knows. But with Cal I know why he’s not a quality XO coach. He relies solely on his player exceptional talent and that didn’t work much.
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Yeah, again the reference is not to an entire body of work of one of the GOATs.
It's about roster assembly during the OAD era and how only two programs went about it in that mostly all-in on 5* & OADs.
We are talking about Payne's lack of qualifications for this job, or even a good mid-major job.
UK/Duke went about things basically the same way an entirely different way from most every other program.
Yes, Coach K is a superior HC to Cal, that is obvious. But there's also a reason no assistants from either tree have had any major success since the OAD era.... That's a question you say "who knows" and that's the part I'm talking about.
It's about strategy of the era... what can those assistants possibly have learned from that type of approach. They got whatever players they want, funnel in, out the door soon after. What does an assistant gain and/or learn from watching Tatum and Randle go through it? The answer is, nothing because they aren't going to get to coach too many Tatums or Randles.
Scheyer, well since he's still getting the funnel actually he's in that element. My guess is if you put him on a low tier P6 he fails just like most everyone else does that gets those jobs.
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Any new coach essentially enters into a not-so-great situation, except if you're Tubby Smith in 1997. There are job openings for a reason. And it's a pretty easy gig if you think about it, if you're willing to put in the work. There's only way to go- up. Payne was so GD lazy and stupid, he didn't know what up was or how to get there.
He thinks the approach is a good one to apply, player centric, probably because he witnessed a title and a few other deep March runs. That, and he's a former player and he values the player on a more personal level maybe.
What he doesn't habla is that approach ran into a wall even with the high end guys, so how the F is it gonna fly with next tier players to win at the level required?
There's a lot of evidence showing he's lost on it all, but the biggest tell is the fact that he really does think he did a good job here.
Kenny Payne was totally lost in his coaching he hired a bunch of guys that had no desire or work ethic an example of there leader don’t feel bad for him he profited over 15 million in 2 years. He basically stole money from the Louisville fans and community.pat Kelsey has done more in 3 weeks than payne did in 2 years
Kenny Payne got paid a lot of money for historically bad seasons. That's on the Louisville AD and I'm not going to blame KP for collecting what he was owed. Fans are allowed certainly to believe it's good he's gone but some of the stuff I've read online from Louisville fans has been downright awful.
Well, a few things. I don’t know what you’ve read online. Also, what is online certainly isn’t always true. Lastly, KP was so bad, what you read likely is. At a time when we needed him the most, an alum, a guy who gets it, who could’ve been the hero, slept walk, gave zero shits, about his job. He showed no effort, no emotion, he collected a GD, fat ass check while continuing to make excuses. He was a massive failure (2 seasons, 12 wins.). Massive. Criticism, even hate, is merited.
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Well as you should know, humans can be awful. It's always been the case and it always will be.
Now I loathe KP now that he's back with Calipari. It's looks so much like a mission accomplished kind of thing. It probably isn't but Payne had to know it looks very bad. He's rising on the most hated list for Cards fans.
But he doesn't care. He is richer than he ever would have been at his Alma mater's expense. Again, mission accomplished.
But I would never wish harm to him or anything like that. I would prefer if I never heard his name again.
If it was a mission accomplished type of thingy - cow’s current status seems like collateral damage.
You hate to see it.
Agree CardX with everything you said, except the "hate" ........ I do not feel any hatred towards KP despite his lack of effort and incredibly poor performance.
What I’d like to see is no further threads that include the words Kenny, KP or Payne ever again. It’s over…the coach, the era and hopefully the pain. Can’t wait to move on.
Same. Let's all agree he was a waste of money pos and never bring him up again.
I don’t mean personal hate towards that loser. Hate as in a passionate dislike for his approach, his coaching style, his repeated bone headed comments. He was a flat out disaster.
