Baseball tourney
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So players can't execute but it's the coaches fault? You think the same way about us?
The thing that is standing out is pitching. The really good teams just roll out arm after arm. SEC is ridiculous with their pitching staffs. UT beat Clemson in 14 innings with 3 guys that all would have been weekend starters for Louisville. Mid to high 90’s with really good off speed stuff.
You don’t see a bunch of walks or guys always working from behind. When you see it you get crazy high scores and when you don’t see it games are relatively low scoring.
Not sure how UK did it with this group but they are good. Wake is the best team I have seen because they have 3 legit starters that can go deep plus they can swing it. UT is going to be a problem. Legit arms. LSU is susceptible because they aren’t deep on the mound. Legit #1 but weak after him. Their offense is so good.
You don’t see a bunch of walks or guys always working from behind. When you see it you get crazy high scores and when you don’t see it games are relatively low scoring.
Not sure how UK did it with this group but they are good. Wake is the best team I have seen because they have 3 legit starters that can go deep plus they can swing it. UT is going to be a problem. Legit arms. LSU is susceptible because they aren’t deep on the mound. Legit #1 but weak after him. Their offense is so good.
I agree with much of your analysis Cycle27, but Clemson had Tennessee beaten twice before losing it late. I give the Vols credit for their late runs to tie it up, but when the Tigers has the winning run on 3rd base with no one out and the batter failed to sacrifice bunt, or even get a ground ball .......... the coaching staff choked the perfect opportunity to win it straight up.. With one out and bases loaded .......... the next hitter did the only thing you cannot do, he hits an infield ground ball into a double play.
As for UK; I hate to give them credit, but they did what it takes to get to this Monday game. With that said; WVU's offense failed to show up for the early Sunday contest. Mountaineer fans believed they never got any sleep the night before ............not sure if that was true or not, but they gave no account of themselves pitching or hitting.
IU is very young, and this evening will be a huge opportunity to step up.
Okay, I'm confused here. Are you saying the coach should have pinched hit a better hitter? I mean if the players don't do the fundamentals needed, aren't they the ones choking?
Coaches don't play so when they choke it's on decisions made or not made. It's up to the players to make the necessary plays. Don't see where the Clemson coaches choked in any way.
Coaches don't play so when they choke it's on decisions made or not made. It's up to the players to make the necessary plays. Don't see where the Clemson coaches choked in any way.
I think the discussion point is on whether or not they could have bunted, etc. to put themselves in a position to score, etc. I didn‘t see it so I can’t comment. Ultimately, a batter at plate with a chance to win the game - that is pretty much on the player. Jack P came through for us in a situation like that this year and he also failed to as well. Choke is a harsh word though.
I did question bringing in a relief pitcher that is easy to scout. The TV which is really good said expect a heavy dose of fastballs. I was expecting a mid to high 90’s with some good movement. Nope low 90’s with little movement. Got up 0-2 then couldn’t hit his spots and guy literally hits it out of the park.
Based loaded no outs. This isn’t a coach issue at all. This was their lead off hitter losing his mind by swinging at 3 consecutive pitches out of the zone. The last swing was and is hard to explain other than he may never look that bad again. That ended up being why the next guy hit into to double play. UT could play for 2 in the middle which they got. Then a double play ball that was so close it had to be reviewed. Telling you 96-97 fastball and nasty slider putting it play is a chore.
Based loaded no outs. This isn’t a coach issue at all. This was their lead off hitter losing his mind by swinging at 3 consecutive pitches out of the zone. The last swing was and is hard to explain other than he may never look that bad again. That ended up being why the next guy hit into to double play. UT could play for 2 in the middle which they got. Then a double play ball that was so close it had to be reviewed. Telling you 96-97 fastball and nasty slider putting it play is a chore.
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Bases were loaded with no outs. They didn't score but it didn't have anything to do with the coaches. In my opinion, the first guy choked by striking out, swinging at pitches out of the strike zone. The next guy hit into bad luck as the groundball into the double play was razor close.
That's baseball. I've seen a lot worse, like a bases loaded bunt attempt that backfired into a double play. Now if that was called by a coach, that would be a legitimate choke job. You don't bunt with the bases loaded with no outs, but somehow I wouldn't be surprised if UofL did something like that.
Thank you Bardman; your response to Real was 100% correct.
Interestingly, the same situation I described at Clemson, occurred again last night in Lexington when IU had runners on third with no one out. In fairness to the Hoosier coaching staff, the situation was different at Clemson: the game winning run situation was not in Lexington.
Back to Clemson, the strategy was to sacrifice the winning run home from third with a bunt, as even if the runner is tagged or thrown out, it only results in one out, but the other base runners advance to 2nd and third, greatly reducing the chance of the inning, which in that case ended with the Vols turning the double play.
You obviously cannot do it when there are 1 or 2 outs; the time is when there are no outs. In the case of Clemson, it was the single opportunity to win the game and advance to the Supers, and the Clemson fans knew it immediately and responded accordingly on their rival sites blaming their coach for having failed to follow that prevailing wisdom.
I am only talking about the strategy, and not so much the execution that Realville suggests. No coach can know the outcome, or how effective the hitter may or may not perform, however he must be responsible for calling the play at the time that provides the best chance of success.
Strategy in baseball is admittedly is always up for differing opinions, and it does not mean that either opinion will be successful, it just provides the best percentage of success.
Interestingly, the same situation I described at Clemson, occurred again last night in Lexington when IU had runners on third with no one out. In fairness to the Hoosier coaching staff, the situation was different at Clemson: the game winning run situation was not in Lexington.
Back to Clemson, the strategy was to sacrifice the winning run home from third with a bunt, as even if the runner is tagged or thrown out, it only results in one out, but the other base runners advance to 2nd and third, greatly reducing the chance of the inning, which in that case ended with the Vols turning the double play.
You obviously cannot do it when there are 1 or 2 outs; the time is when there are no outs. In the case of Clemson, it was the single opportunity to win the game and advance to the Supers, and the Clemson fans knew it immediately and responded accordingly on their rival sites blaming their coach for having failed to follow that prevailing wisdom.
I am only talking about the strategy, and not so much the execution that Realville suggests. No coach can know the outcome, or how effective the hitter may or may not perform, however he must be responsible for calling the play at the time that provides the best chance of success.
Strategy in baseball is admittedly is always up for differing opinions, and it does not mean that either opinion will be successful, it just provides the best percentage of success.
I'm sorry but what exact scenario are you referring to? Bases loaded with no outs? I've seen that scenario a million times and rarely seen a bunt attempt.
Personally, I wouldn't think bunting in that case would be the proper decision unless the batter was a great bunter. You could pop the bunt up or bunt into a double play, home to first.
I do agree the batter has to have the mindset of sacrificing a hit to get that winning run in from home, so swinging wildly and striking out is not that. Maybe the coach could have pinched hit knowing this batter would not be disciplined? I don't know but if I have the scenario right, I just don't see how the coaching can be blamed.
So correct me if I'm wrong if it wasn't the bases loaded with no outs with the game on the line, because that's what my opinion on this is based on. If Jack Payton was up in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game and the bases were loaded with no outs, I certainly wouldn't want him bunting.
We obviously don’t know Clemson’s roster however your lead off hitter is usually one of the best with the bat and understanding the strike zone. The guy was a .330 hitter. Not sure how many times he is asked to bunt as a lead off guy. I know we all like blaming coaches but you aren’t bunting in that situation with that guy IMO. You don’t expect your lead off guy to lose his mind like he did.
To me the coaching mishap was picking a reliever that was all fastballs against a fastball hitter. The same guy took their ace deep on your guessed it a fastball.
To me the coaching mishap was picking a reliever that was all fastballs against a fastball hitter. The same guy took their ace deep on your guessed it a fastball.
Real ... that was the actual situation that started this exchange; specifically when Clemson had bases loaded with no one out. The more unique aspect of that game was indeed "a once in a lifetime type event" as it was the bottom of the ninth inning, scored tied, and the winner advances to Supers.
You may argue what you would do, but you should concede that Clemson is staying home as a result of the strategy the coaching staff took failed.
I wish my memory was better than what it is, but I believe that a few years back during either a Regional or Super Regional host game, Dan McDonnell did exactly what I am suggesting that Clemson should have done ............ only it was a suicide squeeze that provided UL with a critical run with a man on third.
The very nature of the way the Clemson vs UT game played out was exactly how Tennessee hoped that Clemson would allow the hitter to take his chances at the plate by swinging away ...........which resulted in a strikeout leaving the next hitter subject to the inning ended double play.
My last point here:
Admittedly, seldom does a coach have a decision under these same circumstances. I am not saying that a bunt "per se" is the only option, but any intentional contact where the ball is on the ground results in a win. The hitter came up without any such direction ........ he stood in taking a called strike before swinging and missing. Give the UT pitcher credit, he made the pitches .......... just saying the coach lost the one opportunity to win the game, and his decision was only further compounded when his next batter hit into the double play. A deep fly ball gives the runner at third a chance to tag, or a bunt provides a chance to sacrifice the winning run in. The only way Tennessee gets out of the inning is when both Clemson hitters do the only thing that results in zero runs despite having the bases loaded with no outs scenario.
Admittedly, seldom does a coach have a decision under these same circumstances. I am not saying that a bunt "per se" is the only option, but any intentional contact where the ball is on the ground results in a win. The hitter came up without any such direction ........ he stood in taking a called strike before swinging and missing. Give the UT pitcher credit, he made the pitches .......... just saying the coach lost the one opportunity to win the game, and his decision was only further compounded when his next batter hit into the double play. A deep fly ball gives the runner at third a chance to tag, or a bunt provides a chance to sacrifice the winning run in. The only way Tennessee gets out of the inning is when both Clemson hitters do the only thing that results in zero runs despite having the bases loaded with no outs scenario.
I understand all of that strategy and the likelihood that any of it would get the job done. My reasoning for entering this debate is solely on the question that the coach choked or made the incorrect decision.
As the game manager, he knows his players and their capabilities and has to use that knowledge when deciding on how to use them. Anything he chooses may not work. In this instance, you believe getting the ball on the ground was the best way to score that winning run. I don't disagree. The infield however was playing in making a bunt even more risky.
The coach had one of his best hitters up and trusted he would give a good at bat. Maybe if the #8 hitter was up, he would have called for a bunt? Regardless, bunting there is no guarantee by a long shot.
To begin with, bunting is a lost art and maybe the coach believed his hitter may pop up the bunt? Then the double play ball with the next hitter is still there. Maybe the bunt is too hard and the pitcher fields it and starts a double play, home to first?
If he called for the bunt and it backfired he would now be questioned on why he didn't let one of his best hitters swing the bat. The point is it's the players who have to execute a bases loaded, no outs scenario in the bottom of the 9th inning.
If this had happened to Louisville and Knap struck out and Payton grounded into a double play, I would not come close to criticizing McDonnell, and I have my share of issues with Mac in other areas. I would call Knaps strikeout as a choke job and Payton's double play as bad hitting luck.
But that's me.
As the game manager, he knows his players and their capabilities and has to use that knowledge when deciding on how to use them. Anything he chooses may not work. In this instance, you believe getting the ball on the ground was the best way to score that winning run. I don't disagree. The infield however was playing in making a bunt even more risky.
The coach had one of his best hitters up and trusted he would give a good at bat. Maybe if the #8 hitter was up, he would have called for a bunt? Regardless, bunting there is no guarantee by a long shot.
To begin with, bunting is a lost art and maybe the coach believed his hitter may pop up the bunt? Then the double play ball with the next hitter is still there. Maybe the bunt is too hard and the pitcher fields it and starts a double play, home to first?
If he called for the bunt and it backfired he would now be questioned on why he didn't let one of his best hitters swing the bat. The point is it's the players who have to execute a bases loaded, no outs scenario in the bottom of the 9th inning.
If this had happened to Louisville and Knap struck out and Payton grounded into a double play, I would not come close to criticizing McDonnell, and I have my share of issues with Mac in other areas. I would call Knaps strikeout as a choke job and Payton's double play as bad hitting luck.
But that's me.
UL and CDM were not in that situation, only Clemson was.
It is true, the Clemson coaching staff know their players better than me or anyone, but history will show they failed at the very best opportunity to advance.
You can say the hitter failed, and I will not argue that fact. However, I prefer to place the failure on the coach for his decision to allow the hitter to swing away, rather than putting the ball in play with a sacrificial bunt/ground ball. The strikeout was the one unacceptable option, as it set up the double play.
It is true, the Clemson coaching staff know their players better than me or anyone, but history will show they failed at the very best opportunity to advance.
You can say the hitter failed, and I will not argue that fact. However, I prefer to place the failure on the coach for his decision to allow the hitter to swing away, rather than putting the ball in play with a sacrificial bunt/ground ball. The strikeout was the one unacceptable option, as it set up the double play.
Hence, the word "if" this happened to UofL.
And the K was not the "one" unacceptable option, as a pop up bunt would set up the double play as well.
Blaming the coach in this situation is assuming the other decision was going to work. On any level of baseball the decision to bunt in that same situation is rare. You just don’t see it. The field is condensed making swinging away the right call.
The player executes or they don’t. This wasn’t the only time players didn’t execute. UT had some opportunities as well.
To me the big shift that has been occurring is batters don’t compete with 2 strikes. They don’t change their approach. This was a good example the guy was swinging for the fences instead of crowding the plate, spreading out and chocking up. The whole goal was to move the ball. Striking out used to be a walk of shame now it is widely accepted. Even worse is the number of guys that take the backward k. It is ridiculous to watch veteran guys get rung up on borderline pitches. It happens but it happened way to much for Louisville this year.
The player executes or they don’t. This wasn’t the only time players didn’t execute. UT had some opportunities as well.
To me the big shift that has been occurring is batters don’t compete with 2 strikes. They don’t change their approach. This was a good example the guy was swinging for the fences instead of crowding the plate, spreading out and chocking up. The whole goal was to move the ball. Striking out used to be a walk of shame now it is widely accepted. Even worse is the number of guys that take the backward k. It is ridiculous to watch veteran guys get rung up on borderline pitches. It happens but it happened way to much for Louisville this year.
Barnyard should've gone the way the Indiana St athletic director has gone and played that regional somewhere else. In case you guys didn't see,Indiana St was supposed to host the Super, but there is something else going on in Terre Haute this weekend so he allowed the series to be moved to Dallas I think.
At least the coach from IU thinks Barnfart should've gone the same route. Lol
At least the coach from IU thinks Barnfart should've gone the same route. Lol
If the shoe was on our foot, do you think we would have let the regional go somewhere else?
I think Florida has a slight advantage as more of the heavyweights are in the other bracket. Not a big fan of Kevin Sullivan though. Don't have an issue against WF and wouldn't mind if ACC team won it all. I have a tendency to pull sometimes for underdogs and it would be a major upset if Oral Roberts were to pull if off. You could make an argument for at least 5-6 teams winning it all so should be interesting.
Yeah me neither,but I'm just looking for a value bet. Can't get it with WF. Maybe Virginia.
Virginia is a hard read. They were dominant at home but so-so on the road. They definitely have all the ingredients. To me Game #1 is the toughest. Matched up against Florida. Lose 1st game and you're fighting for your life.
Rooting for anyone other than an SEC team. I have witnessed the most unbalanced coverage, and obvious bias towards the SEC by ESPN and most mainstream media sources, which I believe is responsible for the advantage the SEC enjoys with both selection and hosting opportunities in the tournament.
I will concede the SEC is not only a powerful baseball conference with a successful record to support its reputation; but is arguably the best baseball conference in the country. What I question is whether the success in Omaha is as much about superiority, or the ability to have so many (10) teams invited into the tournament with so many of those having the advantage of hosting? UK is an example of hosting despite their late season decline, and rewarded with Ball State, WVU and IU as opponents. The subsequent 14-0 loss to LSU provided ample of evidence that it was unworthy of being a host school.
The polling turned out to be “musical chairs” between whichever SEC team appeared at the time to be demonstrating momentum within its own conference. One team would leap frog over others once they got into conference play, leaving most other non-SEC a conference schools being discounted if they lost a series.
I will concede the SEC is not only a powerful baseball conference with a successful record to support its reputation; but is arguably the best baseball conference in the country. What I question is whether the success in Omaha is as much about superiority, or the ability to have so many (10) teams invited into the tournament with so many of those having the advantage of hosting? UK is an example of hosting despite their late season decline, and rewarded with Ball State, WVU and IU as opponents. The subsequent 14-0 loss to LSU provided ample of evidence that it was unworthy of being a host school.
The polling turned out to be “musical chairs” between whichever SEC team appeared at the time to be demonstrating momentum within its own conference. One team would leap frog over others once they got into conference play, leaving most other non-SEC a conference schools being discounted if they lost a series.
Pretty good action so far. Crazy finish to kick off the Series with Florida-Virginia.
LSU looks really strong if they get enough pitching, Wake escapes late after the rain delay against Stanford and of course Cinderella Oral Roberts continuing to perform miracles.
Can't wait to see how this plays out. Gotta say,there's 2-3 teams on a different level.
LSU looks really strong if they get enough pitching, Wake escapes late after the rain delay against Stanford and of course Cinderella Oral Roberts continuing to perform miracles.
Can't wait to see how this plays out. Gotta say,there's 2-3 teams on a different level.
"Gotta say,there's 2-3 teams on a different level";
Exactly Earsky; I volunteered the same thing in a mid-season thread about the inequity in polling. I believed at that time WF & LSU were clearly in a class by themselves, and I thought there were a few others who could qualify in that same category. I thought UVA looked like one of those other worthy candidates to join that elite level, but I clearly missed on UF. The Gators look like the best team that I have seen, based on the way they responded to the Cavs when it counted.
Exactly Earsky; I volunteered the same thing in a mid-season thread about the inequity in polling. I believed at that time WF & LSU were clearly in a class by themselves, and I thought there were a few others who could qualify in that same category. I thought UVA looked like one of those other worthy candidates to join that elite level, but I clearly missed on UF. The Gators look like the best team that I have seen, based on the way they responded to the Cavs when it counted.
I know we like to single out the kitties a lot but in my opinion, they earned mostly what they got. They won 40 games, which is usually the measuring stick in being selected. They had the #2 strength of schedule according to some baseball polls (that is usually just a product of being in the SEC which so many ranked teams) and they finished above .500 in the league. We certainly didn't make a case for being in the tournament.
I do think the NCAA wanted to give UK a host site because of their relatively new stadium and they produced the numbers at least for consideration. One could argue about the strength of teams in their bracket but WVU and Indiana were not bad teams. I think I remember our brackets having Wright State, Xavier, etc. We certainly didn't have teams like Tennessee and Vanderbilt in our brackets, at least not in the regionals. I think the NCAA also knew they would be questioned about seeding UK and giving them a host site and actually punished them by matching them up against LSU, who has to be considered one of the 3 favorites to win it all along with Wake Forest and Florida. I do think the NCAA needs to rethink about reseeding the teams once they get to Omaha, 1 thru 8. Baseball is different than football or basketball. How good you are that day depends on who you have pitching on the mound. Not everyone's ace is matched up. Anyway, they may have rewarded UK with a host site but they certainly didn't do them any favors matching them up against LSU.
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I have NC Card "ignored", but whenever I open a thread alert off my e-mail, it shows all responses regardless of "ignored" or not.
In this case, I am glad that I saw NC Card's response to my post, as his comments were both respectful and frankly persuasive.
In this case, I am glad that I saw NC Card's response to my post, as his comments were both respectful and frankly persuasive.
My take so far on the CWS is that every team seems to have a relief pitcher coming in throwing 95-97 mph and they're freshman. Tennessee's pitching staff strikeout to walk ratios are unreal. I think that's where we have fallen off the last couple of years. We need guys like the Burdis again.
Don’t get caught up in the velocity everyone throws 92-95 which is plenty. It is their off speed stuff that separates these guys. They all have really good command of their pitches. The kid from TN has an elite slider. The LSU pitcher throws 100 but his off speed is great as well. Wake’s 1 guy mixes up all his pitches. All these hitters can turn around a fastball. I will never understand taking on 3-0 fastballs it is the only count that the hitter is guaranteed a fastball and one the isn’t located very often.
Wake and LSU are elite offenses and they were completely shut down yesterday. All the games are coming down to 1-2 runs. Good teams all over the place.
Louisville had a hell of run on really good pitchers however the last 2-3 years it has been average. The guys that transfer out were high velocity guys but they had no command. I don’t see anyway they don’t try to land a legit weekend starter.
Wake and LSU are elite offenses and they were completely shut down yesterday. All the games are coming down to 1-2 runs. Good teams all over the place.
Louisville had a hell of run on really good pitchers however the last 2-3 years it has been average. The guys that transfer out were high velocity guys but they had no command. I don’t see anyway they don’t try to land a legit weekend starter.
I agree that velocity is not the end all answer, but look at these numbers. These reflect max velocity. Granted these were their numbers coming out of HS, but it is rare for players to increase their velocity by more than 2-4 mph, unless you're looking at maybe a regular starter who converts to a relief pitcher.
Galvan - 85 mph
Farone - 93 mph
Koger - 94 mph
Grundy - 92 -94 mph
Liggitt - 93 mph
Corbett- 90 mph
Now Detmers coming in is at the 97 mph range but we need a few more.
Doesn’t matter if you don’t have the off speed stuff to compliment the fast ball. Look at all the really good pitchers at Louisville all in the 92-95 range. The difference with all of them was their control and off speed stuff. McKay and Detmers put it where they wanted it. Outside corner check in on the hands check. Louisville guys couldn’t throw inside because they would end up hitting the batter or living it out over the plate.
Velocity isn’t the issue for Louisville it is 100% their inability to locate pitches and consistently throw off speed stuff for strikes. Hawks tanked when he lost his off speed control. By 2nd time through lineup they had him pegged. Consistently in the 92-94 range with his heater. They could sit fastball and be patient. Granted 96-100 is harder to square up but if a college hitter can just sit fastball they will turn that speed around as well.
Velocity isn’t the issue for Louisville it is 100% their inability to locate pitches and consistently throw off speed stuff for strikes. Hawks tanked when he lost his off speed control. By 2nd time through lineup they had him pegged. Consistently in the 92-94 range with his heater. They could sit fastball and be patient. Granted 96-100 is harder to square up but if a college hitter can just sit fastball they will turn that speed around as well.
Perfect world- Hard throwing guys that hit location and can get the breaking stuff over.
Completely agree about the off speed pitches.
Tbs,every guy over here should have 3 pitches they can control. Don't know that we have had but a couple of those guys over here in recent memory. Hell,I'd settle for 2 pitches.
Completely agree about the off speed pitches.
Tbs,every guy over here should have 3 pitches they can control. Don't know that we have had but a couple of those guys over here in recent memory. Hell,I'd settle for 2 pitches.
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