WBB Game thread: Notre Dame at Louisville

[Birdie King]

Excellent, well-written synopsis. As I stated in a previous post - "Turn out the lights, the party's over."

 

[nccardfan]

I will say this (apologies... have not been on here in a while)... HVL is what she is. She is a scorer. I don't know and won't quote her win-shares for any and each game.. She is not the worst thing to happen to this team... She takes a lot of VERY bad shots... that is for sure... but real story of this game was that Notre Dame got us with their elite lenth. of the 7 players they used, only and I do mean ONLY Miles and Brandsford were UNDER 6'1"... Miles is 5'10" which is the equivalent of 6'2" or 6'3" in men's BBall. Their length at us up. They consistently went into the paint all game long and scored. HVL is 5'7"... they had 6'1" Citron on her, whenthey didn't put 6'2" Prosper on her... You look up and ND basically brought 4 LONG guards against the likes of Carr, HVL, Konno, andRobinson. Russell comes in for Jones... because, honestly, Jones is incompetent in Walz system. She came into the game and threw bad passes and got lost on defense. Carr, today, was no better. She came in, and tried to run the point. She can't. Her strengths are when she faces shorter guards or when someone can get her open. Well, HVL is not the blazing PG we want her to, so her driving to "embalance" opposing defenses like Dana, Hall, A. Smith, and K. Smith could do during previous years...is non-existent. Put a long athletic player on her, and she will suffer... She needs other faster, athletic players around her to help open up her shooting and driving.... I told the guys over on the other board, that this was not going to be an elite team of Jeff's... because the players he brought in got exposed from day one. We were hoping Jones could be the offensive equivalent of Engstler... she has not been. She has been a dissapointment. She thrives in a very open court offense where free wheeling is allowed. She can only drive to her right...and she is not a strong ball handler. Then you throw in the fact she is not a "Paint person" she is a wing.... Think of her as a less skilled version of Angel McCoughtry... Carr has not had a fraction of the impact that Hall has had. She can't run the team. She is a Russ SMith type player... who can put her mind to it for some good defense... but can't create her own shot... because, unlike Chelsea, she looks strong but is not that strong in her lower body... so she can't make tough drives like Dana and Chelsea would... Yes, I know we outrebounded ND... but Jeff's offense today was not very good. Its not very good because he does not have a lot of the pieces he has had before... with NIL and 1 time transfers... he may never get those pieces, which, he has been blessed to have by having players grow into his system. Right now we lack size. We have lacked size, all through out Jeff's tenure... at the guard spot. Tonight, Jeff tried different things to "keep things interesting". He had Harris guarding Citron for a bit... and Harris, God bless her soul, was up to the task, until a screen came and she had to switch. He tried 4 guards and 1 big... to try to get some speed on the floor... but we all know, Konno has regressed... Kasa is not a scorer, and HVL had a 6'1" or 6'2" person on her all game long. Hats off to ND coach..... hats off to the league... Louisville is down.. and its all on Jeff and staff to recruiter better size and athleticism in the portal. Jayln Broown is more of that future, as is Mobley. It sucks that Verhulst left... bvecause she was part of that future too. We don't have any elite size after this year, with Liz (who was abust at beginning but has come on SUPER strong to wards the end with 10 rbpg average in last 4 or 5 games) and Williams . If you think this year was rough... wait until next year...
I saw all of this after the 5th game of the season. I saw how we struggled to defend Gonzaga, and how we struggled to defend MTSU. We even struggled, at times to defend Cincy...and Bellarmine... at times... and could tell, that this was not going to be a dominant team like we have had before. This team was going to be a 10 loss, 2nd round out team...

Good post. Very factual in a lot of areas. But I think if a non U of L fan were to read that, you would think our WBB team was 4-25 and not the men. We are the 4th seed in the ACC tournament. Earlier in the season, we were speculating what if we don't make the tournament. We are in. No this is not Jeff's best team, it is a product of the transfer portal but I think he's done a fair job considering. I think Josie Williams was going to be that void for Engstler. She's a one year big that ended up being ok but far from a major contributor. We thought Carr could handle the PG or at least share it with HVL. Halfway through the season we found out she's more of a 2 and Mykasa was our best option, but as we already knew Mykasa is not a scorer and up till now was really only asked to play defense. I can go on and on about Olivia, everytime the opposition puts her in a pick and roll she's too slow on the hedge and ends up fouling whoever she picks up. We can still make a run. Go Cards!

 

[Bardman]

Birdie, the party is not over. Several posts have hit the nail on the head. Small guards - a problem (at times) and unathletic bigs.
This year the transfers just didn’t work out. This team doesn’t pass well which is a huge problem. HVL has very little help offensively; or, I should say the help is sporadic. This is a good team - not a great team. The fact, as well, is the ACC is very good this year - the best overall it has been for many years. This team is better than multiple top 25 teams and I think they will prove it tourney time.

 

[phenderson]

Good post. Very factual in a lot of areas. But I think if a non U of L fan were to read that, you would think our WBB team was 4-25 and not the men. We are the 4th seed in the ACC tournament. Earlier in the season, we were speculating what if we don't make the tournament. We are in. No this is not Jeff's best team, it is a product of the transfer portal but I think he's done a fair job considering. I think Josie Williams was going to be that void for Engstler. She's a one year big that ended up being ok but far from a major contributor. We thought Carr could handle the PG or at least share it with HVL. Halfway through the season we found out she's more of a 2 and Mykasa was our best option, but as we already knew Mykasa is not a scorer and up till now was really only asked to play defense. I can go on and on about Olivia, everytime the opposition puts her in a pick and roll she's too slow on the hedge and ends up fouling whoever she picks up. We can still make a run. Go Cards!

Which is why I mentioned "we would be a 10 loss team leaving the 2nd round of the NCAA's".
My thoughts on Josie Williams is that she has no business on an Elite Power 5 team. She was great at the "low major" school she was at for a reason. She is not fast, nor is she athletic. But she is highly skilled. I think she was supposed to be the "stop gap" for Liz, and not EE. You watch her play, and you can see that she is skilled but she is literally a plodder. She has neither "twitch" nor "hops".
Liz has athleticism. What she lacked, up until the last 4 games, was heart. She is also lacking in speed.
Olivia lacks length... and defensive speed, and she is a HORRIBLE finisher around the goal at her size. She is listed in some places at 6'4" and in others at 6'3"... She, like Liz, and evven Josie, has worked on her conditioning and looks awesome. But she can't finish against players her size or bigger.... which is astounding, because Harris can. Harris is a great rebounder... and finisher... but like Olivia, has no jumper... or consistent SF skills. Put all of those players into 1 body and you have a 1st team all-American and All-ACC
So Jeff has had to piece-meal together their playing time... because none of them have played at an Elite level all year. This is how it has been with the entire team... ALL year long. Last year we had 3 defensive stoppers in A Smith, K-Smith and Robinson... 5'10", 6'1" and 5'6" and some change... This year we just have Robinson. HVL has been astounding... but she has not been the answer... because, again, putting her the floor with Robinson and Carr... exposes us. Russell is sort of well rounded at 5'11"ish\6-foot-ish and like Liz, she has taken the bull by the horns over past 3 games... but you have to ask yourself... where was this all year from those 2? Konno, has been a bust...for the most part... because of her studies. She is the big guard who should be playing major minutes... but she doesn't? Why? because she has been absent.

Jones came in... and never grew into the system. Carr has been outstanding at times... but she has only thrived, in a wide open system, like Jones, where there is a lot of Ball movement. Well... if anyone really sits down and really watches most of our possessions yesterday they would see that they literally consisted of the ball getting stuck in HVL's hands, or Carr's hands, for 90% of the possession, and then a last second shot has to be taken... An observer will point to this being ND's defense and length, but most of the issue is that despite Jeff's offense having same numbers as last year and year before... the truth is that it has been bogged down by the lack of GOOD ball movement. Even RObinson will sit there and pound the ball into the hardwood for almost an entire posession before giving it up... because the offense has not been free flowing. Its been a lot of 1 on 1 from Carr and HVL which would be fine if they were of Citrone's size.

Honestly, Jeff knows, a lot of this is on him. He lost a coach and a SOC Coach in the off-season. And they were "probably" major parts of the scouting and recruiting processes. Lose a good decent PG like Chelsea Hall, someone capable of driving and creating space, and replace her with Carr, who just aint a driver... she is a shooter. We lost Engstler who was an excellent 2 way player, defensively and offensively could post up and create shots down in the post... and bring in a taller version of Carr... someone who shoots, or only goes left and played in a 1 dimensional defensive system garnering all defensive team awards...easily in Jones.

You watch Jones, when she comes into the game, and she has 1 speed "Full Court" everything for her is run run run... and so in half court... she looks lost unless a play is drawn up specifically for her. Even on defense... if we are not pressing with her at the top... she looks lost... with reaches and flat footed-ness.

Jeff has been waiting for her to step up... ALL YEAR LONG. In fact he has been waiting for people to literally step up on defense and take charge of defending people like Citrone. That game was hers. NOBODY could take responsibility for stopping her. Jeff didnt assign anyone to it... and nobody stood up to it... RUssell guarded her some... and Carr guarded her some. HVL did too.. and then Robinson. Citrone killed us...6'1" PG... who shoots 45% from 3-point range. We can only hope that the 6'2" girl we had transfer in from G-tech is more like her and K Smith than like Jones...

Because of the lack of size and athleticism, this team has sort of regressed back into a Mid-major team. We need more length and athleticism... Skill can be taught... but length can not. HVL is not a "Once in a generational" player... like Durr, Angel, and Shoni were. I know this will hurt folks feelings... because she plays soooo hard. But the truth of the matter is that K Smith, before she went off to the WNBA, was a much more all around player. She could rebound, start the fast break and shoot and defend 3 positions on the court. A. Smith was ultra-athletic and superfast and a defensive... and Engstler was another once-in-a-lifetime type player who could turn a game on its end both ways, defensively with a block, steal, and fast break... or offensively with a 3-pointer out on the wing.

One final note... Jeff has not played ANY of his freshmen. He might as well have red-shirted them... this works in football... not so much in basketball... we lose 6 players who playefd the majority of the minutes this year... and only return HVL.... unless Konno comes back for a 5th year... my goodness... we are in a world of trouble next year with just HVL and Cochran and Harris... Can you imagine breaking in a new "sophomore" PG in the ACC?

The story of this season is "Jeff couldn't put it all together on the court or recruiting trail". And a lot of it has to do with NIL.. which he has complained about. NIL will cost us transfers out, and freshmen recruits...

 

[phenderson]

Birdie, the party is not over. Several posts have hit the nail on the head. Small guards - a problem (at times) and unathletic bigs.
This year the transfers just didn’t work out. This team doesn’t pass well which is a huge problem. HVL has very little help offensively; or, I should say the help is sporadic. This is a good team - not a great team. The fact, as well, is the ACC is very good this year - the best overall it has been for many years. This team is better than multiple top 25 teams and I think they will prove it tourney time.

ACC has been us, Notre Dame, and NC State for past 5 years... V-Tech has been coming on strong... and honestly, that is a team we match up with better than NC State. NC State is a team that is basically missing a good center... and their PG. They have length everywhere, just like Notre Dame.
ACC has been the #1 or #2 Women's BBall league for past 5-6 years. Its always us and Big 10 at the top. SEC has dropped... PAC10 is up there too. Where ACC and everyone else has fallen short has been the big dance. Its been all USC-Jr, UCOnn or Stanford. But Notre Dame carried the torch for MANY years before McGraw quit..

With our game against Notre Dame... ND adjusted to our aggressive both games, by using length. We wore down towards the ends of both games because of their superior length. It exposes our bad offense and dependency on HVL.

 

[nccardfan]

Which is why I mentioned "we would be a 10 loss team leaving the 2nd round of the NCAA's".
My thoughts on Josie Williams is that she has no business on an Elite Power 5 team. She was great at the "low major" school she was at for a reason. She is not fast, nor is she athletic. But she is highly skilled. I think she was supposed to be the "stop gap" for Liz, and not EE. You watch her play, and you can see that she is skilled but she is literally a plodder. She has neither "twitch" nor "hops".
Liz has athleticism. What she lacked, up until the last 4 games, was heart. She is also lacking in speed.
Olivia lacks length... and defensive speed, and she is a HORRIBLE finisher around the goal at her size. She is listed in some places at 6'4" and in others at 6'3"... She, like Liz, and evven Josie, has worked on her conditioning and looks awesome. But she can't finish against players her size or bigger.... which is astounding, because Harris can. Harris is a great rebounder... and finisher... but like Olivia, has no jumper... or consistent SF skills. Put all of those players into 1 body and you have a 1st team all-American and All-ACC
So Jeff has had to piece-meal together their playing time... because none of them have played at an Elite level all year. This is how it has been with the entire team... ALL year long. Last year we had 3 defensive stoppers in A Smith, K-Smith and Robinson... 5'10", 6'1" and 5'6" and some change... This year we just have Robinson. HVL has been astounding... but she has not been the answer... because, again, putting her the floor with Robinson and Carr... exposes us. Russell is sort of well rounded at 5'11"ish\6-foot-ish and like Liz, she has taken the bull by the horns over past 3 games... but you have to ask yourself... where was this all year from those 2? Konno, has been a bust...for the most part... because of her studies. She is the big guard who should be playing major minutes... but she doesn't? Why? because she has been absent.

Jones came in... and never grew into the system. Carr has been outstanding at times... but she has only thrived, in a wide open system, like Jones, where there is a lot of Ball movement. Well... if anyone really sits down and really watches most of our possessions yesterday they would see that they literally consisted of the ball getting stuck in HVL's hands, or Carr's hands, for 90% of the possession, and then a last second shot has to be taken... An observer will point to this being ND's defense and length, but most of the issue is that despite Jeff's offense having same numbers as last year and year before... the truth is that it has been bogged down by the lack of GOOD ball movement. Even RObinson will sit there and pound the ball into the hardwood for almost an entire posession before giving it up... because the offense has not been free flowing. Its been a lot of 1 on 1 from Carr and HVL which would be fine if they were of Citrone's size.

Honestly, Jeff knows, a lot of this is on him. He lost a coach and a SOC Coach in the off-season. And they were "probably" major parts of the scouting and recruiting processes. Lose a good decent PG like Chelsea Hall, someone capable of driving and creating space, and replace her with Carr, who just aint a driver... she is a shooter. We lost Engstler who was an excellent 2 way player, defensively and offensively could post up and create shots down in the post... and bring in a taller version of Carr... someone who shoots, or only goes left and played in a 1 dimensional defensive system garnering all defensive team awards...easily in Jones.

You watch Jones, when she comes into the game, and she has 1 speed "Full Court" everything for her is run run run... and so in half court... she looks lost unless a play is drawn up specifically for her. Even on defense... if we are not pressing with her at the top... she looks lost... with reaches and flat footed-ness.

Jeff has been waiting for her to step up... ALL YEAR LONG. In fact he has been waiting for people to literally step up on defense and take charge of defending people like Citrone. That game was hers. NOBODY could take responsibility for stopping her. Jeff didnt assign anyone to it... and nobody stood up to it... RUssell guarded her some... and Carr guarded her some. HVL did too.. and then Robinson. Citrone killed us...6'1" PG... who shoots 45% from 3-point range. We can only hope that the 6'2" girl we had transfer in from G-tech is more like her and K Smith than like Jones...

Because of the lack of size and athleticism, this team has sort of regressed back into a Mid-major team. We need more length and athleticism... Skill can be taught... but length can not. HVL is not a "Once in a generational" player... like Durr, Angel, and Shoni were. I know this will hurt folks feelings... because she plays soooo hard. But the truth of the matter is that K Smith, before she went off to the WNBA, was a much more all around player. She could rebound, start the fast break and shoot and defend 3 positions on the court. A. Smith was ultra-athletic and superfast and a defensive... and Engstler was another once-in-a-lifetime type player who could turn a game on its end both ways, defensively with a block, steal, and fast break... or offensively with a 3-pointer out on the wing.

One final note... Jeff has not played ANY of his freshmen. He might as well have red-shirted them... this works in football... not so much in basketball... we lose 6 players who playefd the majority of the minutes this year... and only return HVL.... unless Konno comes back for a 5th year... my goodness... we are in a world of trouble next year with just HVL and Cochran and Harris... Can you imagine breaking in a new "sophomore" PG in the ACC?

The story of this season is "Jeff couldn't put it all together on the court or recruiting trail". And a lot of it has to do with NIL.. which he has complained about. NIL will cost us transfers out, and freshmen recruits...

I agree with almost all of what you said with one exception. Going into the game against ND the focus of the defense was and should have been to stop Olivia Miles not Citron. The fact that Citron was able to pick up the slack after Miles got hurt was probably not expected. We had no game plan for that.

I also think we shouldn't discount the fact that Sunday was Senior Day and from what I heard was that it was one of the most emotional senior days we have had. 6 players leaving with two of our most favorite players, Mykasa and Konno leaving. The team did not come out of halftime with any energy. They look lethargic to me and maybe they were emotionally drained. I'm not trying to make excuses but we need to think about this. We lost twice by 3 pts each to the team that won the ACC regular season. No shame there.

 

[phenderson]

I agree with almost all of what you said with one exception. Going into the game against ND the focus of the defense was and should have been to stop Olivia Miles not Citron. The fact that Citron was able to pick up the slack after Miles got hurt was probably not expected. We had no game plan for that.

I also think we shouldn't discount the fact that Sunday was Senior Day and from what I heard was that it was one of the most emotional senior days we have had. 6 players leaving with two of our most favorite players, Mykasa and Konno leaving. The team did not come out of halftime with any energy. They look lethargic to me and maybe they were emotionally drained. I'm not trying to make excuses but we need to think about this. We lost twice by 3 pts each to the team that won the ACC regular season. No shame there.

I really feel like no good coach, who is worth their salt would just concentrate their whole game plan on stopping 1 player. Jeff made an adjustment, he put Harris on her. But Harris would get picked off on screens which would leave others on Citrone who would then drive the ball and score.


I will even add that Miles really did her best to be a PG for most of this game and the last one. She works hard on facilitating first and then going all out when needed. Its truly a crazy, sad (for us) and beautiful thing to see as long as she and her team are not cheapshotting throughout the game... I can tell you this, she is, hands down, the best player in our league... She is for our league and ND, what Kaitlin Clark is for the Big 10 and what the one girl was for Oregan and the Pac 10, a few years ago... She is very special (cheap shotting not withstanding).. She almost consitently made all of our bigs except Harris, look bad. I mean how does a person drive against 2 bigs and guard and score? Angles... its all about speed, timing and using Angles... Not taking anthing away, but Citrone averages 14.3 (Same as Olivia) points... and 5 rebounds.. and 2.3 assists... she is like the 2nd Point Guard on the team. It was nothing for her to move over to that role.

Again, I really believe this was the expectation of Jeff in regards to Jones and Carr... two players who could come in and make the offense more dynamic with Pick N Roll and ball movements. And to take over for HVL and Robinson. But they couldn't, haven't, don't and won't. Its been mish-mash of a sorts. CC has been victim and victor of her own circumstances. She has a game where the opposing team took boat loads of jumpers and 3-point shots... so her speed helped her track down 17 rebounds. If you look at her stats under a microscope... she had 9 games where she had 4 or more assists... 9 of the 31 games she played in... both those opponents were the worst opponents on our schedule. Every other game she had anywhere for 3 to NO assists... versus negative TO to Assist ratio. He literally has had to bench her in favor of Robinson. Like wise with Jones. she comes of the bench now, and Harris and Konno have those 2 starting spots...

Here is the thing that sort of sucks for us. Has anyone noticed how easily, consistently, and confidently, Notre Dames bigs would get the ball and score using the back board? DId we all notice how skilled they seemed to be around the rim? How they knew how to turn and use their bodies on screens and even how they defended the post. Their individual instruction is just better. They are a well coached team. We don't have that. You look at Liz... and HVL or Liz and Kasa, or Olivia, and just just sort of "flinch" when they get the ball down in the post... because Liz's movement, is more of her being taught those moves and not refining them. she know how to show on the block, and move around, but when she turns, if she is cut off, she does not roll into another move, she tries to shoot the shot and gets it blocked. Olivia has post moves for days... but she does not know how to jump unless she is fading backwards. And none of them know the nuances of pick and roll because of how bad our guard play has been all season. I have watched HVL and MR try to set things up... and it leads to turnover from where Olivia gets stuck and either bowls over a player driving, or the pass gets stolen because she doesn't show her hands properly.

I know its a small victory to not get blown out by ND 2 games in a row... but its rough because they bring everyone who matters, back next year... and so it seems like they have got their Mojo back against us. Jeff needs to do better player development.... Liz should have been better, a while ago... and Cochran has not grown at all. Williams was never going to be the answer... and Harris has such a high ceiling but will she be developed... or will she regress next year? Jones and Carr have not developed at all...

 

[KozmasAgain]

I think we have our issues and next year could be worse if we don’t get players out of the portal. However I still think we can make a run in the tournament if everyone comes to play. We lost to the top teams in our conference in close games so the ability is there. In order to make that run we need more offensive scoring from other players on the team it can’t all rely on HVL. I do like the way Liz and Olivia fought for rebounds they were more aggressive in that game than any other game this year.

 

[Birdie King]

Again, good stuff Phen. Keep it comin' for next week tourney. 👍

Excellent, well-written synopsis. As I stated in a previous post - "Turn out the lights, the party's over."

I got a little too upset after the crowd of 12,000 (some of whom skipped church ) was let down in several areas in a game in which we should have won.

I think we have our issues and next year could be worse if we don’t get players out of the portal. However I still think we can make a run in the tournament if everyone comes to play. We lost to the top teams in our conference in close games so the ability is there. In order to make that run we need more offensive scoring from other players on the team it can’t all rely on HVL. I do like the way Liz and Olivia fought for rebounds they were more aggressive in that game than any other game this year.

 

[2330859]

I listen to what CJW says in his post game remarks, and I agree with his summation ……. the 2nd half officiating gave ND a huge advantage on the FT Stripe, and it definitely neutralized our defensIve effort. We repeatedly denied ND in their half court offense deep into the shot clock, only to be whistled for a foul that gave the Irish 2 free throws. Look at the statistics and it’s pretty evident in the disparity.

I am not placing all of the blame on the officials for the loss, but the 9 point lead that disappeared in the 3rd quarter was directly effected by the officials sending ND to the free throw line. On the other end, ND‘s defensive length in their zone was incredibly effective in limiting any open looks.

 

[2330859]

This is the same team that beat UNC & FSU, and almost beat VT and ND on the road. Granted not to the level we have enjoyed in the past, but it would be a mistake to count this team out at tournament time.