So perhaps when you throw together a bunch of transfers and throw in some new assistants it might be the case that they don’t understand what wearing the UofL jersey is all about. To get out-rebounded by Furman shows a lack of heart. To give up 30 points to one player on Furman shows a lack of discipline. To shoot an off-balanced three as time expired shows a lack of coaching. Just a horrible way to get the season going and very troubling that this veteran team doesn’t yet have enough determination to play Louisville caliber basketball.
Transfers
- Thread starter Knucklehank1
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UofL basketball is not what it used to be my friend. It is going to take years to get to the light at the end of the tunnel.
It's hard to accept given the success the program has experienced but these are dark times.
I know I am pessimistic and this is a space for die hard fans but I do not understand why so many fans don't see the writing on the wall.
Don't have the horses don't have the coaching don't have a plan but do have NCAA handing out penalities some day in the near future.
It's hard to accept given the success the program has experienced but these are dark times.
I know I am pessimistic and this is a space for die hard fans but I do not understand why so many fans don't see the writing on the wall.
Don't have the horses don't have the coaching don't have a plan but do have NCAA handing out penalities some day in the near future.
You’re spot on my friend. Wish you weren’t but you are.
It would serve everyone well to go back during the Denny Crum era and see how UL lost some early season games, only to get back on track and challenge for the national championship.
Putting this loss and “lack of toughness” on the transfers is misguided. Locke, Faulkner and West stats and performance were clearly better than our returning veterans, as Williams 1-7, Davis 2-7 and Williamson 1-6. That combined 4-20 offensive output for that amount of time on the floor from these returning starters provides a much better explanation for losing at home last night.
Matt Cross only played 11 minutes last night; he showed toughness in the win over Southern that was missing.
Putting this loss and “lack of toughness” on the transfers is misguided. Locke, Faulkner and West stats and performance were clearly better than our returning veterans, as Williams 1-7, Davis 2-7 and Williamson 1-6. That combined 4-20 offensive output for that amount of time on the floor from these returning starters provides a much better explanation for losing at home last night.
Matt Cross only played 11 minutes last night; he showed toughness in the win over Southern that was missing.
Sum it up they aren’t tough enough to play really good defense and aren’t skilled enough offensively to cover up.
The absolute worst thing is one of their cornerstones in the program is toughness. Haven’t seen it yet in 4 years.
The absolute worst thing is one of their cornerstones in the program is toughness. Haven’t seen it yet in 4 years.
Good points. Not pinning this on the transfers, just more or less saying that throwing a roster and coaching staff together (and then losing the head coach) may tend to result in a mish-mash of results. Clearly it’s going to take some time for them to be a cohesive group. And when you have that many new guys and that many guys in the rotation, they may not completely appreciate the expectations that come with wearing the UofL jersey. Simply put we don’t lose in November and shouldn’t lose to a team from whatever conference Furman is in.
Unfortunately this is not the Denny era. Too many reasons explain that won't write a novel. Glory days. They'll pass you by. Glory Days. Glory Days....It's probably a bad idea to look to Denny era it keeps fans in denial on the state of the program.
I do agree blaming transfers is just as misguided. Things like effort etc just kinda more misguided frustration. Fans everywhere struggle to cope with reality. They see poor performance and given tradition struggle to reach reality.
Half the roster is stitched together. This isn't a roster turnover going from pro talent to more pro talent like the elite programs are doing. This isn't adding one or two high end players via portal or HS to a successful group ready to contend, just a step away from contention. That ain't the story.
It's mostly boiling down to talent. Watch the ranked teams in T10. They are rolling out multiple pro prospects they have the horses. Or they are playing with experienced talented proven guards. They are playing above the rim at times. They are incorporated into successful systems playing for successful coaches.
This is not to disrespect the players that choose Louisville appreciate them all. They just don't have the horses. Or coaching. Or momentum. Etc etc etc...
I don't know what fans should do but coming to grips with reality is a good place to start.
Don’t go back to the Crum era but think about this. Trivia question. Who is the only team to beat Louisville in the Yum Center during the month of November?
College basketball requires incredible skill play at this level. When you don’t have that skill or access to that skill you better have a system in place that covers your deficiencies. That is where Mack finds himself.
The NCAA cloud is limiting his access to elite players. His teams lack the overall skill to beat the better teams.
He is not doing a good job on putting together right players to do what he wants. You can’t win if you can’t get the ball in the paint period end of story. Last year had a guy that could get wherever he needed to go but had no shooters. This year the jury is still out. It appears this is a team of good college players.
To be really good they all have to play above their skill level. Man that is hard to do night in and out.
The NCAA cloud is limiting his access to elite players. His teams lack the overall skill to beat the better teams.
He is not doing a good job on putting together right players to do what he wants. You can’t win if you can’t get the ball in the paint period end of story. Last year had a guy that could get wherever he needed to go but had no shooters. This year the jury is still out. It appears this is a team of good college players.
To be really good they all have to play above their skill level. Man that is hard to do night in and out.
This team was ducttaped together quickly and there's no HC on the floor. The loss was ridiculous but I'm not calling the season a failure yet. Nov and Dec are likely to be tough but I'm letting the cake bake.
In my opinion, what’s important to take away from last night is that Williamson and Cross played a total of 28 minutes combined, yet we lost in OT to a very good team that over the last 6 years has averaged 23 wins each year.
We played this game with both “hands” tied behind our backs, just to see who among the other top players were ready and able to win games for us. Obviously, we would have liked to have won in OT rather than lost, but it’s not the end of the world to lose a game in November if it teaches a bunch of new players what mistakes they simply cannot make at this level.
We played this game with both “hands” tied behind our backs, just to see who among the other top players were ready and able to win games for us. Obviously, we would have liked to have won in OT rather than lost, but it’s not the end of the world to lose a game in November if it teaches a bunch of new players what mistakes they simply cannot make at this level.
Last night wasn’t an early season loss from the Crum era that we’ll improve on. Last night was a distress flare launched up into the upper empty corners of The Yum alerting you of what this season will most likely become.
I’m not a sunshine pumper, I’m a realist that knows a thing or two about hoops. I warned you and others what was coming. I don’t want to be correct, but I see what is on the floor and it’s mediocre at best. Couple that with the weak staff that Mack has assembled and it’s a recipe for a long, long season.
Pegues was lost last night, pulling the wrong guys at times, subbing the wrong guys at other times, playing ineffective guys way too many minutes (see Davis, Malik, Williamson, West) and playing others not enough (see Ellis and Cross).
As I’ve previously lamented, our front line stinks. They are soft as hell and offensively challenged. We’ll go as far as our guards can take us. IMO we need to go small, Ellis should play the point, Locke and West at the 2 spots, Faulkner and Cross should share duties at the 4 spot and Withers should play the 5. Let the others carve out what they can off the bench.
It’s gonna be a long, long year. Shove crow down my throat if I’m wrong, I’ll gladly eat it. But I don’t see it on my menu this season.
Depth is a bit of a luxury if you encounter an injury here or there, a guy is out 1-2 games plug in the next man up, etc. Maybe run into foul trouble. But it can also be over valued. Guys logging 8-12 min are going to be super inconsistent and their impact the same.
The game is still dominated by a combination of elite players and/or structure/system/coaching.
Teams that overcome a lack of top end talent make up ground through system, experience, coaching, and luck. If you list these 5 talking points out where does Louisvile really stack up?
Talent - No top end talent
System - What is it? Is it effective?
Experience - C that is eligible for Medicare but playing on 1 leg and a JR whose career is just stuck in neutral
Coaching - Man, I don't know
Luck - Jesus take the wheel
The game is still dominated by a combination of elite players and/or structure/system/coaching.
Teams that overcome a lack of top end talent make up ground through system, experience, coaching, and luck. If you list these 5 talking points out where does Louisvile really stack up?
Talent - No top end talent
System - What is it? Is it effective?
Experience - C that is eligible for Medicare but playing on 1 leg and a JR whose career is just stuck in neutral
Coaching - Man, I don't know
Luck - Jesus take the wheel
I'll be here with a hefty plate for you. What I've seen so far was what I expected early. Without Mack it's going to be difficult to navigate which players should be on the court. Only way to know is to play all these guys against the non conference schedule.
The thing of note for me after this loss is the hoops IQ of some of the players. There was some very bad decisions at crunch time that cost the game. Most were quick shots that were open and had they went in, we probably would have held on. I think we won't see much of that going forward.
I believe these guys play hard and the team will gel once everyone's roles are defined. I don't see Louisville as a final 4 contender because there's no star player but a sweet 16 team as a #5 to #7 seed is very possible.
But we will see.
Don’t forget on top of everything you mentioned an entirely revamped offense the players have to master. May take time
We need to just realize, it’s impossible to replace a Rick Pitino. We had the best coach in the nation for 17 years.
We forget that we’d fallen a bit at the end of the Denny Crum days, if Rick had succeeded in the NBA there’s no telling where we’d be.
UNC failed with Matt Doherty. Indiana is 20+ years trying to replace Bobby Knight. sUcKs had Tubby Smith and Billy Gillespie. UCLA has had several stinkers since Wooden. UConn fell off the map quick with Kevin Ollie.
College basketball is a game based on coaching. There not many elite names and it takes luck to find the right guy. Rick was an elite HOF coach and that’s rare. We won’t find that easily again.
I’ll gladly eat a double serving of Crow, I’d like some dressing & mashed taters with it too!
Again, when I watch this team the thing that keeps screaming at me is the front line play. Stop and think about what we’ve seen so far. Who likes to get down low and get physical? Who has gotten us multiple easy/high % buckets on the block? Who has hit the glass on the offensive end? Who on the front line plays above the rim? We have no one currently doing any of these things.
The front line players are very limited in raw physical talent. Both Malik & Withers don’t like contact and are not effective down low getting buckets. That’s why they both have a tendency to gravitate to the perimeter. Dre is limited as well, he plays below the rim at all times and struggles to put the ball in the hole. JJ is rail thin and gets tossed around like a rag doll. While Curry has the physical build to help, he might struggle for a whole season adjusting to the upgrade of competition he’s seeing. Williamson? Man, he’s frustrating, watching him it’s almost like he’s afraid to succeed and he’s super soft. Wiz will never play here, he just doesn’t have “it” for this level. Wheeler? He must not be much currently if he can’t get on the floor with this group.
I love all these guys, they’re Cardinals and I appreciate their effort. But, facts are facts. I’ll say it one more time, this team is only going as far as the guards will take them. Write it down.
Shortcreek: I am not a “sunshine pumper“ either, nor have I any illusions of Denny or Darrell walking through that door. I encourage you to look at UVA and listen to their fanbase and see if you see such a pessimistic outlook after their loss to Navy? They have seen the Cavaliers respond to adversity, something that UL’s microwave fans need to learn.
No it’s not Crum era UL BB, but it is reminiscent of what Denny and his staff experienced with having so much interchangeable depth early in the season.
Faulkner, Locke, West, and Cross are legitimate D1 college talent with a lot of experience. Add Ellis into this mix and I believe Mack will get it figured out by the time we get into mid season.
No it’s not Crum era UL BB, but it is reminiscent of what Denny and his staff experienced with having so much interchangeable depth early in the season.
Faulkner, Locke, West, and Cross are legitimate D1 college talent with a lot of experience. Add Ellis into this mix and I believe Mack will get it figured out by the time we get into mid season.
It’s easy for the Virginia fans to have patience. You’re comparing apples to oranges. The Hoos coach has a ring and has a proven system they know works. They’ve had recent success, and a recent title. It’s not a fair comparison IMO.
Have you been to any games this season? The fanbase has virtually quit on our basketball program. The attendance is embarrassing. I haven’t seen this many empty seats since the pre-Griff Freedom Hall era. I’d say Virginia is still selling out. They believe in their coach (probably a future Hall of Famer), the system he runs, and the long term future of their program. Currently we do not have those luxuries.
Impossible to find any other program that went through a similar situation as to what Louisville is going through.
Scandal after scandal...multi setbacks of grand scale.
Reaching back to the Denny era is just not applicable for the current problems. The Denny era was loaded with top HS players. The program was so strong he could afford disappointing production from top prospects like Forest, Wall, and Kimbro. Just to name a few. Because he had a proven system and was in the midst of a HOF career with 100% full support and without #wash#rinse#repeat off court problems.
The program is just in a very bad place at this time.
Scandal after scandal...multi setbacks of grand scale.
Reaching back to the Denny era is just not applicable for the current problems. The Denny era was loaded with top HS players. The program was so strong he could afford disappointing production from top prospects like Forest, Wall, and Kimbro. Just to name a few. Because he had a proven system and was in the midst of a HOF career with 100% full support and without #wash#rinse#repeat off court problems.
The program is just in a very bad place at this time.
It is not impossible, but it becomes more difficult and timeline extends when the hand-off from HOF coach to new coach comes with massive off court problems and the problems keep happening.
Fans need to realize the impact of the problems and what's really in the cupboard.
In the off season you were much more optimistic than you are now, so you are making progress.
Shortcreek, you might want to check your facts before making statements when comparing “apples and oranges“, particularly as it relates to home attendance.
Actually UVA had 13,100 in attendance hosting Navy; while UL had 12,800 for the Furman game. Further, UL finished 7th in basketball attendance during the 2019-20 season, while UVA finished 19th. Yum might appear less inhabited, as its 22K capacity makes for a less filled atmosphere.
Covid affected all schools in 2020-21 season, and I suspect it still has some affect considering the indoor events.
Actually UVA had 13,100 in attendance hosting Navy; while UL had 12,800 for the Furman game. Further, UL finished 7th in basketball attendance during the 2019-20 season, while UVA finished 19th. Yum might appear less inhabited, as its 22K capacity makes for a less filled atmosphere.
Covid affected all schools in 2020-21 season, and I suspect it still has some affect considering the indoor events.
I’m well aware that we are capable of having larger numbers in attendance but our numbers are IMO super inflated and we have a much larger venue. Look at our football numbers vs butts in the seats. The powers to be can do it in basketball just as they do it in football.
The “apples and oranges” was referencing your comments about the UVA fans not overreacting to their Navy loss - not attendance. Try to keep up. Virginia’s attendance vs capacity % is much higher. That would be like saying our crowd currently is better than Gonzaga’s crowd (which it is not) because it’s larger!
I think some of you aren't being realistic about the situation. We are lucky we aren't holding tryouts for walk-ons that have a shot at starting.
I’m rapidly realizing that until the NCAA mess is settled Louisville has no hope of attracting the talent necessary to field a team that can make any kind of run in the tournament. I don’t care who is coaching here. The top talent isn’t going to come to a school where the prospect of a multi year post season ban is hanging over our heads. That level talent only expects to play a year or two in college and won’t consider a school where they can’t play in the only games most people care about. I doubt anything happens on the NCAA front this season and I’m afraid the best we can hope for is a 2 year ban. That means another 3 years including this one before we can even hope to start a rebuild. Who knows how long a rebuild would take. Hope I’m wrong.
Honestly, you really believe Mack took the job with those expectations? The reality is that these players are playing at a DI institution with some of the best facilities in the country. Yeah Damion Lee got screwed his senior year but that didn’t kill his NBA dreams.
I still maintain that any NCAA ban may become irrelevant right quick. The threats over the Oklahoma state ban could ignite a departure from the NCAA by the power conferences. That story is not getting a lot of coverage and it's on purpose.
I know it seems crazy but so did student athletes now getting paid. The NCAA has to know this. Now not many want to defend UofL but if Kansas and or Arizona get hit the dominos will fall.
The NCAA may want to cool it on sanctions or its relevance will be challenged.
I know it seems crazy but so did student athletes now getting paid. The NCAA has to know this. Now not many want to defend UofL but if Kansas and or Arizona get hit the dominos will fall.
The NCAA may want to cool it on sanctions or its relevance will be challenged.
You are quite amazing Shortcreek; in addition to being qualified in evaluating these newly arriving transfers’s talent as average after only a few early games, you also have the uncanny ability to correct the announced Yum Center attendance.
Still not sure how you equate attendance with arena capacity, particularly when both UL and UVA failed to fill either of their respective home losses. I do not think it matters what the arena holds; the attendance is still what it is.
Still not sure how you equate attendance with arena capacity, particularly when both UL and UVA failed to fill either of their respective home losses. I do not think it matters what the arena holds; the attendance is still what it is.
I could be wrong and hope that I am, but I believe a multiple year postseason ban is coming and the death penalty is in play. Mack will probably be holding tryouts to fill out the roster if/when such a ban happens. Again, I'm not rooting for this and certainly hope I'm wrong.
Death penalty? For what? Using grad assistants in practice?
With everything the program has been accused and penalized of, nothing was as serious as academic fraud or six figure dollar amounts going to players or recruits.
What's hurting the program is more violations while being on probation. I grant you that may lead to a post season ban for the Bowen fiasco but this stuff Mack did was solely due to the covid mania.
The NCAA would be hanging itself if they gave the death penalty for such insignificant violations. I for one would never watch another college basketball game under the NCAA.
I figure they will hand down a post season ban for one season and again limit the scholarship for a few years.
With everything the program has been accused and penalized of, nothing was as serious as academic fraud or six figure dollar amounts going to players or recruits.
What's hurting the program is more violations while being on probation. I grant you that may lead to a post season ban for the Bowen fiasco but this stuff Mack did was solely due to the covid mania.
The NCAA would be hanging itself if they gave the death penalty for such insignificant violations. I for one would never watch another college basketball game under the NCAA.
I figure they will hand down a post season ban for one season and again limit the scholarship for a few years.
That's pretty much it. The Bowen stuff happened while on probation for the Powell stuff. And then the NCAA tacked on the grad assistant and recruiting video "violations" that happened under Mack. For a reference point, look at what Oklahoma State got for the FBI stuff alone. My friend I hope I'm wrong but when the NCAA tacked on the recruiting video violation or whatever I took that as a sign a very big hammer is coming.
Also I expect the NCAA to be complete dicks and issue a post season ban right before March Madness begins. I think this team will be pretty good once Mack is back on the sidelines and this thrown-together roster gels by late January or so.
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Our roster is filled with 4 stars plus Malik and Sam who were 5 stars on some site. Last year we pulled the top transfer guard in Carlik Jones. We're more talented than every team not named Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, or Gonzaga and those programs aren't cleaning house in titles every year.
We weren't getting top flight talent before, and in all honesty, this is more overall talent from a recruiting perspective than a lot of Rick's teams as he had a lot of project type players. This narrative we aren't recruiting well doesn't make sense. We aren't getting the elite guys, but we never were and we did just fine. We won a title with Siva, Chane, Blackshear, Gorgui, and Trezl type 4 star borderline 5 star type guys, which we have been getting plenty of.
The talent is fine. We just are lacking on getting a great PG.
Agree with all of this on recruiting and would like to add that we've lacked an enforcer down low for years, we need a guy who can just scare people and push them around, play above the rim, etc.
Enoch played that role decently well. That was a solid roster, but we just did not have a point guard on the team and it was hard to find a way to effectively play guys like Nwora, Enoch, Malik, DJ, & Sutton together combined with Ryan's limits on defense. Mack did his best to get that roster together.
They can't apply the ban for the current season, especially after so many games. The sanctions would apply for the following season. I guess I shouldn't say "can't " when it comes to the NCAA?
If they handed out a sanction in February and said it applied this season there would be a huge controversy. Like I've said, the NCAA may want to chill a bit with their heavy hand. They have received threats from Oklahoma State fans and they won't be the last.
There is simply no logic for the NCAA punishing players that had nothing to do with what coaches did before they enrolled. Punish the university with fines, suspensions and reduced scholarships, but punishing student athletes from competing for the national championship that had nothing to do with any violations is something a new committee running college hoops wouldn't do.
NCAA better wise up or they will be irrelevant very soon.
From what I have read, Mack wasn't aware it was a violation. Now he may should have known but the NCAA has to know Mack wouldn't purposely break rules while he knows the program is on probation?
There should be no vindictive attitude from the NCAA that UofL flaunts or doesn't take the probation seriously. No need to again make a example out of Louisville. The overreach of the Powell sanctions is still a subject of debate.
I don't know when but one of these days the NCAA is going to the dustbin of history. The University of Louisville should be giving that notion a standing ovation.
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