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Tonite's game is the one we need to win...

zipp

Elite Member
Jun 26, 2001
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...Last nite's would have been nice. But the men's team is not where the image of athletics is now. It's the women's team. #1 vs #2 and the opportunity to be ranked #1 for the first time in history.

BTW, since it's a current topic, attendance for U of L women's basketball is up 40% this year compared to last year at this same point. So much for the national trend/wifi/HDTV arguments...
 
...Last nite's would have been nice. But the men's team is not where the image of athletics is now. It's the women's team. #1 vs #2 and the opportunity to be ranked #1 for the first time in history.

BTW, since it's a current topic, attendance for U of L women's basketball is up 40% this year compared to last year at this same point. So much for the national trend/wifi/HDTV arguments...

Doesn't this also invalidate your argument that everyone hates Tyra so much that they are refusing to support athletics?
 
The women's program has been winning all along. Gotta have a change in the independent variable to observe a change in the response variable...

So if they go winless next year I’m sure the following year’s attendance will stay the same.
 
So if they go winless next year I’m sure the following year’s attendance will stay the same.
A. That's not going to happen.
B. Experience from the men's games is the answer would be "yes"...
 
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I agree the game tonight between Louisville vs ND is a big game. This could be the year the women win it all at least they have a chance.
 
How do you explain last year's significant drop?...

Not sure. Your point is that fans are staying away because they are unhappy with the leadership. Unless I missed something Tyra is still the AD as he was last season. Are they no longer unhappy with him?
 
A. That's not going to happen.
B. Experience from the men's games is the answer would be "yes"...

What experience shows that point B is true though? When Krags was the football coach attendance dropped. When Strong came attendance increased and when he showed that he was actually going to be good, attendance increased more. Petrino sucked last year and attendance fell. Last bball season was worse than the one before but it really didn't start tanking until conference play. Up until late January we had loss one game by a large margin. We had lost to a few ranked teams in really close games. After we beat FSU and won on the road against ND we actually had some buzz in the fanbase. This team has done a little bit better early but the wheels hadn't fallen off yet last year.
 
Not sure. Your point is that fans are staying away because they are unhappy with the leadership. Unless I missed something Tyra is still the AD as he was last season. Are they no longer unhappy with him?
All we can do is speculate without hard data for more specific questions...

Are some of the men's basketball fans now going to women's games instead? Does cheaper tickets for the men's games translate to more disposable income to buy tickets for women's games? Have fans who stayed away from women's games last year wised up this year (and why)?

No one knows. All we do know is that women's basketball fans have returned in large numbers this year, while fans continue to flee from men's basketball. And money is hard to come by regardless. And of course, "Vince" has no answers while he keeps looking for them...
 
What experience shows that point B is true though? When Krags was the football coach attendance dropped. When Strong came attendance increased and when he showed that he was actually going to be good, attendance increased more. Petrino sucked last year and attendance fell...
Before we proceed to the rest of your post, you got any data for that? Or are we supposed to accept your word on faith?...
 
Before we proceed to the rest of your post, you got any data for that? Or are we supposed to accept your word on faith?...

There is also no data to support your point. All the data shows is that money has fallen off. Your commentary on why the money has fallen off is speculation.
 
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All we can do is speculate without hard data for more specific questions...

Are some of the men's basketball fans now going to women's games instead? Does cheaper tickets for the men's games translate to more disposable income to buy tickets for women's games? Have fans who stayed away from women's games last year wised up this year (and why)?

No one knows. All we do know is that women's basketball fans have returned in large numbers this year, while fans continue to flee from men's basketball. And money is hard to come by regardless. And of course, "Vince" has no answers while he keeps looking for them...
I think women's basketball attendance is up nationally. It is a good brand of basketball and if they ever figure out the god awful officiating could continue to grow. I think pricing is good as well. They are fun to watch.

I really think fans are turned off by college basketball with all the talk of money, paying players, and dirty recruiting. Their are a large portion of the college fan bases that loved college because it was amateur not professional. What ever the reason college basketball is no longer must see in person or on TV.
 
All we can do is speculate without hard data for more specific questions...

Are some of the men's basketball fans now going to women's games instead? Does cheaper tickets for the men's games translate to more disposable income to buy tickets for women's games? Have fans who stayed away from women's games last year wised up this year (and why)?

No one knows. All we do know is that women's basketball fans have returned in large numbers this year, while fans continue to flee from men's basketball. And money is hard to come by regardless. And of course, "Vince" has no answers while he keeps looking for them...

I think Walz deserves a lot of that credit. He does a very good job selling the womens team and has promoted the program to the heights we see today.
 
There is also no data to support your point. All the data shows is that money has fallen off. Your commentary on why the money has fallen off is speculation.
You show me the data I've referenced, and I'll be glad to post them again. I just told you the data you need to produce to base your argument...
 
I think women's basketball attendance is up nationally. It is a good brand of basketball and if they ever figure out the god awful officiating could continue to grow. I think pricing is good as well. They are fun to watch.

I really think fans are turned off by college basketball with all the talk of money, paying players, and dirty recruiting. Their are a large portion of the college fan bases that loved college because it was amateur not professional. What ever the reason college basketball is no longer must see in person or on TV.
I don't take exception to any of that. All I usually say is those macro trends don't explain the magnitude of our numbers/changes. There are other factors in play at U of L that are unique to U of L...
 
You show me the data I've referenced, and I'll be glad to post them again. I just told you the data you need to produce to base your argument...

Why is there need to produce data? Most people on here agree that fan support and attendance have been down in men's bball and football. The point on contention is the reasons why. Unless you have some mass poll that shows why some fans have not been going to games your reasons are speculation just like everybody else.
 
Why is there need to produce data? Most people on here agree that fan support and attendance have been down in men's bball and football. The point on contention is the reasons why. Unless you have some mass poll that shows why some fans have not been going to games your reasons are speculation just like everybody else.
When cause-and-effect aren't certain, it helps to summarize what you know and don't know...

WHAT WE KNOW:
1. Attendance and money since "Vince" took over are down.
2. He hasn't stumbled onto a way to fix that.
3. Usually knowing why something happens is the start to fixing it.
4. Some things are his responsibility to fix regardless of why/how they happened.
5. Unless the situation is obvious, "Vince" and U of L won't be forthcoming with info that reflects negatively on them.

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW:
1. Whether "Vince" can figure out what to do that is within his control
2. Whether events outside his control will remedy themselves
3. Much newsworthy in the short run--at least while things muddle along or continue down
4. How long U of L athletics can live off of money in reserve and until serious spending cuts take place...
 
When cause-and-effect aren't certain, it helps to summarize what you know and don't know...

WHAT WE KNOW:
1. Attendance and money since "Vince" took over are down.
2. He hasn't stumbled onto a way to fix that.
3. Usually knowing why something happens is the start to fixing it.
4. Some things are his responsibility to fix regardless of why/how they happened.
5. Unless the situation is obvious, "Vince" and U of L won't be forthcoming with info that reflects negatively on them.

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW:
1. Whether "Vince" can figure out what to do that is within his control
2. Whether events outside his control will remedy themselves
3. Much newsworthy in the short run--at least while things muddle along or continue down
4. How long U of L athletics can live off of money in reserve and until serious spending cuts take place...

We all know know money is down we still don't know the reasons why. The reasons why matter a lot to determine how well Tyra is doing right now. Unless you've done a questionnaire with everyone not renewing the tickets etc.. everything you say is speculation and your constant criticism is baseless. I would hope the ath dept. is trying to find out why attendance is down etc..

If the reasons are that people are simply tired of the scandals and drama or even people are doubting Tyra for the sake of Jurich, there is no quick fix for that. The only way to satisfy them is to do a good job and continue to win. It won't be quick and daily criticism is completely unfair at that point. If the reason are something that Tyra is actively doing then yeah he needs criticism.

To your point about the media, when has a public entity ever not spun news to seem as positive as possible. Any entity not doing so are idiots and doing themselves a disservice. Every athletic dept. in the country does it including Jurich during his time as AD.

You did the same thing with Mack's recruiting when he got hired. You criticized recruiting for this class a couple weeks after the hire and trashed the grad transfers we did get cause it took to long to get them apparently. You then criticized the 2019 class when it was only Nickelberry cause Mack was making X amount of money by what ever day and we didn't have a full class despite nobody having a full class since bball recruiting is usually scouted during the summer and then people start taking visits/committing in the fall before the early signing period. But of course you also criticized Mack for recruiting players who were too good because they weren't "clean".
 
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We all know know money is down we still don't know the reasons why. The reasons why matter a lot to determine how well Tyra is doing right now. Unless you've done a questionnaire with everyone not renewing the tickets etc.. everything you say is speculation and your constant criticism is baseless. I would hope the ath dept. is trying to find out why attendance is down etc...
U of L needs to understand why money and attendance are down. That's in order to fix the problem, not determine "how well Tyra is doing." It's his job to fix these problems regardless of why or how they happened. That's if you're holding him accountable to do his job as AD.
...If the reasons are that people are simply tired of the scandals and drama or even people are doubting Tyra for the sake of Jurich, there is no quick fix for that. The only way to satisfy them is to do a good job and continue to win. It won't be quick and daily criticism is completely unfair at that point. If the reason are something that Tyra is actively doing then yeah he needs criticism...
Well, what if continuing problems relate to what he (and U of L) is NOT doing? What if their management of the program is the central issue? What if they simply refuse to acknowledge that? Is THAT their fault?
...To your point about the media, when has a public entity ever not spun news to seem as positive as possible. Any entity not doing so are idiots and doing themselves a disservice. Every athletic dept. in the country does it including Jurich during his time as AD...
If I understand you correctly, that's the everyone-else-does-it argument. And while true, I'm not giving U of L a pass for lack of transparency and honesty. In fact, this regime took over on the basis of "ethics" and that Mom-and-apple-pie garbage. They're the LAST group I'm giving a pass to for doing business as usual.
...You did the same thing with Mack's recruiting when he got hired. You criticized recruiting for this class a couple weeks after the hire and trashed the grad transfers we did get cause it took to long to get them apparently. You then criticized the 2019 class when it was only Nickelberry cause Mack was making X amount of money by what ever day and we didn't have a full class despite nobody having a full class since bball recruiting is usually scouted during the summer and then people start taking visits/committing in the fall before the early signing period. But of course you also criticized Mack for recruiting players who were too good because they weren't "clean".
Let's keep your facts straight about my views on Mack and recruiting... It was supposedly a very urgent situation to quickly remove Padgett and situate Mack in order to salvage our recruiting for 2018. At least that was the narrative I was fed. And what did we accomplish? We landed three lightly regarded grad transfers well down everyone's list, and no late high school commitments. So that benefit was a bust, but I don't recall anyone walking back the narrative. (Maybe you did...)

I also don't recall trashing the 2019 class at any point because it was never a finished job to evaluate. In fact, I've credited Mack with recruiting kids BELOW the level of five star who are more likely--but not guaranteed--to be clean. If I've criticized him in any way, it's that he's not really bringing in kids better than Pitino did--nor probably should he in the short run--and he's making 80% of what a hall-of-famer was paid. I'd call that less criticism and more observation, but fine if you wanna characterize it that way. I stand behind my remarks regardless.

"Vince" and Mack had a good win today after a bad loss earlier this week. Let's see what the next few games bring. If I'm right, however, it won't bring any more ticket buying fans...
 
U of L needs to understand why money and attendance are down. That's in order to fix the problem, not determine "how well Tyra is doing." It's his job to fix these problems regardless of why or how they happened. That's if you're holding him accountable to do his job as AD.

Well, what if continuing problems relate to what he (and U of L) is NOT doing? What if their management of the program is the central issue? What if they simply refuse to acknowledge that? Is THAT their fault?

If I understand you correctly, that's the everyone-else-does-it argument. And while true, I'm not giving U of L a pass for lack of transparency and honesty. In fact, this regime took over on the basis of "ethics" and that Mom-and-apple-pie garbage. They're the LAST group I'm giving a pass to for doing business as usual.

Let's keep your facts straight about my views on Mack and recruiting... It was supposedly a very urgent situation to quickly remove Padgett and situate Mack in order to salvage our recruiting for 2018. At least that was the narrative I was fed. And what did we accomplish? We landed three lightly regarded grad transfers well down everyone's list, and no late high school commitments. So that benefit was a bust, but I don't recall anyone walking back the narrative. (Maybe you did...)

I also don't recall trashing the 2019 class at any point because it was never a finished job to evaluate. In fact, I've credited Mack with recruiting kids BELOW the level of five star who are more likely--but not guaranteed--to be clean. If I've criticized him in any way, it's that he's not really bringing in kids better than Pitino did--nor probably should he in the short run--and he's making 80% of what a hall-of-famer was paid. I'd call that less criticism and more observation, but fine if you wanna characterize it that way. I stand behind my remarks regardless.

"Vince" and Mack had a good win today after a bad loss earlier this week. Let's see what the next few games bring. If I'm right, however, it won't bring any more ticket buying fans...


UofL does need to understand why the money is down and its Tyra's job to fix the issue no matter what it is. There does need to be time allowed to fix the issues though and depending on what they are its not going to be a quick fix. If most of the fans are staying away because of scandal fatigue any words Tyra says now are pretty much hollow. The only thing bring them back will be running the program successfully for a while without the drama from before. Even if its like you say and fans think Tyra is here to dismantle the program it would take time to prove their fears to be wrong. Would anything other than actions bring them back and what action would bring them back immediately?

If Tyra is willfully ignoring issues than he deserves criticism. Most of his major moves have been popular ones though. Hiring Mack had the support of most of the fans as did firing Petrino. Hiring Satterfield was questioned by tons of people after not getting Brohm but he has honestly helped his cause with his assistant hires.

Mack was #1 on a lot of fans' lists so it wasn't like we just went after a guy who was easy. There is nothing to walk back about the way recruiting went. The 2018 class was pretty much done except for grad transfers which we got 2 of (lightly regarded Christian Cunningham is terrible). The 2019 class was always going to be the 1st major judgement of the hire. The only reason not to hire Mack was to go after guys who you wanted cause they were on Jurich's "list". FWIW the rush to fire Padgett was because the longer he had the program the further we were going to fall. A few seasons of Padgett and we could have been a point that fan interest was competely gone. I'd hate to see what attendance would be like with losses a record close to .500 right now.

You are probably right that this one single win won't fix things but a few more like it and attendance will start to increase again next year. Keep most of this team to together with our recruiting class and we will be a preseason ranked team with excitement around the team again and we will have better attendance next year than this one.
 
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One final word on "Vince" and what he needs to do...

He said on several occasions early last year that there was a "small but loud" group of his naysayers. And that his job was not to change what he was doing or planning, but to educate the presumably uneducated. Those were his words during public interviews and Q&A although I may be paraphrasing a little.

He's not saying that much now, if ever. If he was right with his comments, he should have been addressing the issue through "education". And if the group was small, it shouldn't have mattered much anyway. Money and support should be resuming regardless.

If WAITING is now the strategy, that's a new strategy. If finding new and different fans and donors is the plan, that's a new plan. If more wins have to be logged--which has a very weak cause-and-effect IMO--we didn't hear that before. And any of that would tell me that "Vince" was blowing smoke up my a$$ with his analysis of the situation.

In the end, we agree it doesn't matter. If money and support don't soon return, his athletics program will start to show the effects. But if you can't trust the guy in charge to tell you the truth and that continues, you can't blame people for withholding their support. That's only logical...
 
One final word on "Vince" and what he needs to do...

He said on several occasions early last year that there was a "small but loud" group of his naysayers. And that his job was not to change what he was doing or planning, but to educate the presumably uneducated. Those were his words during public interviews and Q&A although I may be paraphrasing a little.

He's not saying that much now, if ever. If he was right with his comments, he should have been addressing the issue through "education". And if the group was small, it shouldn't have mattered much anyway. Money and support should be resuming regardless.

If WAITING is now the strategy, that's a new strategy. If finding new and different fans and donors is the plan, that's a new plan. If more wins have to be logged--which has a very weak cause-and-effect IMO--we didn't hear that before. And any of that would tell me that "Vince" was blowing smoke up my a$$ with his analysis of the situation.

In the end, we agree it doesn't matter. If money and support don't soon return, his athletics program will start to show the effects. But if you can't trust the guy in charge to tell you the truth and that continues, you can't blame people for withholding their support. That's only logical...

What is the truth and how does Tyra fix it in your opinion?
 
One final word on "Vince"

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What is the truth and how does Tyra fix it in your opinion?
The truth is closer to what he's now saying... We have a big problem, and I don't know how to fix it. He's simply telling you what he's going to TRY to do, engage fans more and use marketing gimmicks.

And we'd all get more insight into his plan if he told us what he DOESN'T think it's about. I'd also be interested to know what the consequences are if he doesn't get things fixed in the near term. IOW some honesty about the situation.

If he wants people behind him, he needs to bare his soul. Not smile and act like nothing's wrong...
 
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