OK, it’s time to call out this staff

[2330859]

What was Mac and Williams thinking in the top of the 6th? After a most impressive performance for 5 innings by Forbes, and leading 9-2, anyone paying attention to this game knew that Forbes was spent after giving up the lead-off single, the wild pitch and 4 pitch walk. The game was well in hand before waiting to bring in relief with the bases loaded and no one out. Sorry, but that lack of recognition by the coaching staff sends a horrible message to the players, and gave California all the confidence they needed to get back in the game.

In fairness, the Cards came up big offensively in the bottom of the 9th to tie the game, and ultimately get the game winning run, but only after having appeared to “snatch defeat from the jaws of victory”. I can only imagine how the players must have felt when witnessing our staff’s failure to respond in a timely manner when it has become evident that our pitcher’s have lost control.

If Dan or Roger think they did Forbes any favor by leaving him in, particularly after the wild pitch and 4 pitch walk …….. they did nothing of the kind.

 

[Bardman]

Agree 100%. Said the same last night. It just made no sense. Data should have told them where Forbes was in regards to tiring, etc. He struck out a ton of guys. He also got hit hard at times. Going into that inning they should have had at least two guys ready to go. They are sooooo slow at getting guys warmed up and ready to pitch. Then, you put Schwietzer into a pile of shit. Then end up pulling him (little early IMO) for Wyatt. Then, inexplicably, they pull Wyatt for Biven. WHY???? Biven just doesn’t appear to have it this year. Maybe just start him for our mid-week games and see if you can get a couple of innings out of him.

 

[TheRealVille]

I've been lamenting Coach Mac's "managing" for awhile now. There's a reason they're called coaches in college instead of manager like we see in the MLB.

Mac is coaching, not managing. He got away with this most of the time when he had a roster of MLB talent pitching, except during post season mind you, where managing is very important.

Coach Mac saved Louisville baseball from irrelevance and I will always be thankful for that. However, it's pretty clear to me that if he doesn't have the horses, he's just another coach in college baseball.

He should have been ready to remove Forbes that inning but he instead coached him up instead of managing the situation that would avoid what eventually happened.

 

[73Card]

Although, I know others will disagree I really question the "talent level" on this team. Yes, Forbes should have been pulled but that alone doesn't explain whiffing on a 9-2 lead. I watched Tennesse a few days ago and the old "eye" test confirmed we are not even in the same universe.
I don't think any amount of "player only meetings" will come close to closing that gap.

 

[earsky]

don't think any amount of "player only meetings" will come close to closing that gap.

Oh,didn't know they had a players only meeting. Is this true?

 

[PushupMan]

Considering what our bullpen did over the last 4 innings (or maybe more accurately what they didn’t do) I can see why the coaches would hope that Forbes could complete one more inning….

Doesn’t bode well for the rest of this year….

 

[earsky]

Just pitch the youngest guys and build for next season. Maybe they won't all bolt after the season 🤔

 

[73Card]

Oh,didn't know they had a players only meeting. Is this true?

Yea, Moth mentioned it a few times during the radio broadcast. Apparently, they had 2, players only and later a captains only meeting.

 

[73Card]

I think it's time to start to have a discussion of what the baseball program's expectations are.

 

[Bardman]

Without significant NIL it is going to be tough.

 

[StealthyWhisperer]

Disclaimer: I played baseball in college (was a PO - a pitcher only), have followed it closely my entire life from college to predominately the MLB. I would consider myself above a casual baseball fan. I totally feel everyone on the frustration. However, there is no rhyme or reason why anyone should be upset with your starting pitcher (who was throwing a great game by the way) staying in the game in the 5th inning with a massive lead to save bullpen arms for the rest of the weekend. College ball is different that major league baseball in how you construct a pitching staff. Your 4th and 5th guys in the rotation typically throw during the week, you save your ace and bigger arms for the weekend series. The opposite is true for the bullpen. You want to have bullpen outings during the week and work on development for your younger arms and spend the weekend trying to minimize damage to the pen.

All that being said, there was absolutely nothing wrong with keeping Forbes on the bump in the 5th even after walking a few guys. Folks, we are in March. There is absolutely no reason to burn through your bullpen on the Friday of a series in conference play when you have a huge lead and a full weekend of ball ahead of you. ESPECIALLY knowing Cal hasn't thrown their top arms yet, meaning you are going to struggle to produce more runs and on the other half of the inning, keep enough arms alive to win the series. There is way more to managing a 50+ game season than pulling your starter in the 5th with a massive lead on the Friday of a weekender. Again, totally feel the frustration but to say there are issues with Mac's management is ludicrous. If you want to talk about talent, that's another ordeal. I don't see this staff being as deep as they have been in years' past.

 

[2330859]

Appreciate your experience and perspective Stealthy, but I am not sure how close you have been watching UL baseball, and particularly CDM and Roger Williams with respect to managing our pitching performance during the games over the last several seasons?

With all due respect, you are wrong about “saving the rotation”. Look at the number of pitchers that we have on this roster, and remember Dan’s preseason comments about “the quality of depth that we have”.

Little League, HS, College and MLB managers/coaches are expected to recognize when the pitcher has lost control, and as a rule they know it’s time to make the change before disaster hits. When a Coach or a Manager fail to make the change, the consequences affect the pitcher, the team and the fans ……. Dan not only did Forbes no favors, he allowed him to contribute to the disastrous 6th inning after a brilliant 5 innings of work. I believe that further explains the “team meetings”.

These last two games resulted in our pitchers giving up 24 runs to California; now you can either concede the rotation is simply not ready for ACC level baseball, or question our coaching staff as to whether they have an abundance of confidence in one or two pitchers, or very little confidence in the rest of the rotation. Ten runs should be enough to win an ACC game.

 

[Bardman]

Plus, Cal just isn’t all that good. Data on pitchers accumulated thus far into the season would have told the coaches to have guys ready. Instead they were in the pen for about 10 mins doing Pilates and another 10 throwing to get warm. You have pitchers - use them before the walls cave in.

 

[StealthyWhisperer]

Appreciate your experience and perspective Stealthy, but I am not sure how close you have been watching UL baseball, and particularly CDM and Roger Williams with respect to managing our pitching performance during the games over the last several seasons?

With all due respect, you are wrong about “saving the rotation”. Look at the number of pitchers that we have on this roster, and remember Dan’s preseason comments about “the quality of depth that we have”.

Little League, HS, College and MLB managers/coaches are expected to recognize when the pitcher has lost control, and as a rule they know it’s time to make the change before disaster hits. When a Coach or a Manager fail to make the change, the consequences affect the pitcher, the team and the fans ……. Dan not only did Forbes no favors, he allowed him to contribute to the disastrous 6th inning after a brilliant 5 innings of work. I believe that further explains the “team meetings”.

These last two games resulted in our pitchers giving up 24 runs to California; now you can either concede the rotation is simply not ready for ACC level baseball, or question our coaching staff as to whether they have an abundance of confidence in one or two pitchers, or very little confidence in the rest of the rotation. Ten runs should be enough to win an ACC game.

I disagree. This is not how you manage a pitching staff. Ask anyone who has ever competed at a high level. Not a single person would have pulled Forbes right away. Number of pitchers on the roster and actual talent do not equate. That's a casual way to view the game. I do agree in that the pitching has given up far too many runs, but again, there is a talent discrepancy not an issue of in-game management. I feel your frustration, but that's not how you manage a baseball game.

 

[2330859]

I think you are missing my point; it’s about making the change when witnessing your pitcher losing control. If you happen to be watching today’s game, CDM did exactly what I suggested in my OP; this time he made the change after witnessing 4 consecutive balls; 3 of which were wild pitches.

Admittedly, each situation is different, but to the contrary, it is what most managers and coaches do in that situation. I am curious, what do you think prompts a pitching change if not evidence of losing control?

 

[nccardfan]

I'm not here to settle the argument but managing pitching staffs has been around for a long time. You have your starters, i.e guys who can give you 6-7 innings, middle relief both long (2-4 innings) and short relief (1-2) and then you have a closer or guy you trust to get the last outs. You typically are not going to pull a starter after 1 or 2 innings (at least not in the college game). Why? Because through fall and spring, you have determined who those guys are who can give you multiple innings. You don't just pull a guy and put the next guy in. You can do that like we did against VT and what happened? We had to pitch our weekday starter just to be able to try and win the game.

In the past, Dan and Roger have had the benefit of guys who could go long into the game, albeit throw 100-120 pitches, then bring in a short relief pitcher for an inning and then close with a Burdi. We haven't had that in a while and definitely don't have it now. Forbes has good stuff but for me he doesn't project as a starter. Sure he can give you 4-5 good innings but after the 3rd time through, hitters know he's only got the FB which starts as 98 but drops to 94-95 by the 5th inning and he really doesn't have good offspeed pitches to throw off the batters. Don't know about Dettmers but who knows maybe the workload as a starter is a reason for the injury?

Look at our #3 starter, Peter Michael. At first I thought Roger had worked a miracle. In 2023, Michael started 2 games and had a record of 0-1 with a 9.82 ERA. In 2024, he made 12 appearances, all in relief and no starts, with a record of 0-1 and ERA of 15.68. I kid you not.
So why did Roger and Dan think he was a starter? Maybe because they just didn't have enough confidence with other guys like Cutts and Hartman.

I think it was just coincidence that you think Dan made a pitching change when he did. Every guy is different. Some guys when they start to lose it have to be taken out right away. On Saturday before California made their comeback, he brought in Jack Brown and when he started to get in trouble, we didn't have anybody warming up fast enough to make a change. Why because they had confidence in Brown but he just didn't have it. If you pull a pitcher every time he walks a batter or gives up a hit, we would ruin the entire pitching staff. Pitching is all confidence, confidence in your stuff and confidence you can get the batter out.

 

[2330859]

Dan is stubborn (in a good way), but first and foremost, he is honest. I believe if he were asked today, “should you have relieved Forbes in the 6th after his 4 pitch walk”? I believe he would acknowledge that he waited too long to make the change.