Men's Basketball Revenues (not as bad as you think)...

[the artist FKA zipp]

Here's the numbers from annual reports dating back to the year before we entered the ACC. The Covid year is shaded in gray...

I need to mention here that I believe these numbers combine men's and women's basketball revenues, and there's no way to separate them based only on the annual reports. However, operating revenues for the two sports are budgeted separately. And women's basketball budgeted revenue is about 5% of the total. So it's a minor error treating the total as men's only esp. when you're just looking at changes in revenue and the women’s sport is relatively stable.

Surprisingly, the numbers are pretty flat since joining the ACC. (In contrast, football operating revenues have doubled.)

Pitino was fired in October 2017, so most of the basketball revenue for 2018 had been realized at that point. Using that year as a reference point, average revenue for the years since 2018 has been $21 million not including 2021. That's an average deficit of $0.8 million or a five-year total deficit of $4 million. (Accounting for women's basketball, maybe $0.75 million and $3.8 million, respectively.)

While the arena has emptied out in that time span, operating revenues don't reflect it. Furthermore, the only season we can attribute to the Kenny Payne effect is actually UP $0.3 million vs 2018. Not good if you want Payne gone and believe it can be justified financially...

 

[Guardman]

Do you happen to know avg ticket prices for each year. They've certainly been increasing yearly.

 

[Guardman]

We know that announced attendance is now around half what it used to be during the Camelot years. So ticket prices must have almost doubled.

 

[Guardman]

Also I wonder what has happened to BB-related donations?

 

[Knucklehank1]

We know that announced attendance is now around half what it used to be during the Camelot years. So ticket prices must have almost doubled.

A significant portion of ticket sales are expensive season ticket purchases - the tickets have been already purchased but people just aren’t showing up the games. Eventually those people are gonna stop purchasing season tickets as that message has been sent by them not showing up for games. Payne will be fired by seasons end for that reason alone ( that is one of many reasons he will be fired)

 

[Guardman]

A significant portion of ticket sales are expensive season ticket purchases - the tickets have been already purchased but people just aren’t showing up the games. Eventually those people are gonna stop purchasing season tickets as that message has been sent by them not showing up for games. Payne will be fired by seasons end for that reason alone ( that is one of many reasons he will be fired)

I understand your point very personally. I used to have 6 of the most expensive season tickets. Now down to 4. After this season I will go to either 2 or 3.

 

[Knucklehank1]

I understand your point very personally. I used to have 6 of the most expensive season tickets. Now down to 4. After this season I will go to either 2 or 3.

Yep, I had season tickets for years. We dropped them at end of last season.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

Everyone's digging where I would have...ticket inflation. I don't have season tix in basketball any longer, but I don't know that inflation in ticket prices has affected men's basketball more or less so.

I do have a good set of data for U of L football tickets on this timeline. Since 2018, the face value of my football ticket has gone up 27% which is an annualized rate of about 5%.

CAF donations in football and basketball are considered to be nonoperating and show up under "gifts" on the annual report. Changes there would not affect the numbers in the OP for basketball operating revenues.

I also looked at the largest basketball revenue stream that doesn't involve attendance...ACC related revenues. Between 2018 and 2023, annual ACC/NCAA revenues in men's basketball increased by 23% or $1.6 million. U of L's accountants don't break out conference revenues in their reporting, but I believe they're considered to be "operating"...

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

A point in all of this is that basketball revenues do not reflect the significant decline in fan support as indicated by attendance in the men's sport. And U of L is budgeting in men's basketball to largely stay in line with what that sport is generating.

IOW we're not experiencing financial "pain" that can be attributed to Kenny "Pain" or any other bad decision that's been made. We're not coming up millions of dollars short at the end of the year because Payne is a terrible basketball coach.

What we're losing is the opportunity to make more money. No question, more people in the arena would mean more revenue. I like to wisecrack, however, that I can't deposit opportunity money in the bank. If we're not experiencing the actual loss, we're not losing money in the accounting sense.

Speaking of accounting, I could argue that taking a big risk is doing exactly what most people want...to replace Payne ASAP. If you're bringing in a recognizable coach in a couple months, that's at least a ten million dollar hit to basketball finances over the next few years. And that decision involves certain costs--not opportunity--that U of L's accountants will book as an immediate liability on ULAA's balance statement, as they should.

IMO and as I've always said, this decision will come down to money--the lack of it and apparently that we're not losing it--and other stuff that has nothing to do with wins and losses. Not saying his buyout won't happen, but the odds are still against it...

 

[Cardfan1937]

Here's the numbers from annual reports dating back to the year before we entered the ACC. The Covid year is shaded in gray...

I need to mention here that I believe these numbers combine men's and women's basketball revenues, and there's no way to separate them based only on the annual reports. However, operating revenues for the two sports are budgeted separately. And women's basketball budgeted revenue is about 5% of the total. So it's a minor error treating the total as men's only esp. when you're just looking at changes in revenue and the women’s sport is relatively stable.

Surprisingly, the numbers are pretty flat since joining the ACC. (In contrast, football operating revenues have doubled.)

Pitino was fired in October 2017, so most of the basketball revenue for 2018 had been realized at that point. Using that year as a reference point, average revenue for the years since 2018 has been $21 million not including 2021. That's an average deficit of $0.8 million or a five-year total deficit of $4 million. (Accounting for women's basketball, maybe $0.75 million and $3.8 million, respectively.)

While the arena has emptied out in that time span, operating revenues don't reflect it. Furthermore, the only season we can attribute to the Kenny Payne effect is actually UP $0.3 million vs 2018. Not good if you want Payne gone and believe it can be justified financially...

Thanks for the information. Well presented and certainly a better understanding than what many of the replies present. We do have a consistent fan base in the season ticket area and they will pay for their tickets but; not attend when they are not happy. This cannot be counted on with continued results like we are currently seeing.

 

[Art79]

Ticket price inflation? I can't speak for others, but the ticket price in my area has been cut now multiple times since 2017. The first time, I was at a point where I had enough of the scandals and I was done with season tickets but the price cut was enough to get me back. The next two times, the bad basketball put me in the same position, but the cuts were large enough to keep me. Admittedly, I'm in the upper deck, so my seats aren't great. But I feel similar this year - if the season continues like it has so far, I won't be back without another price cut or a change in the program. It doesn't have to be a big-name coach, just someone who has been successful elsewhere as a head coach and who will be positive and get out in the community and put some fresh momentum in the program.

 

[OldhamCard335]

Isn’t raising ticket prices for the current MBB program pretty much the same as raising ticket prices for a Titanic cruise once the ship has already started sinking?

 

[Knucklehank1]

Ticket price inflation? I can't speak for others, but the ticket price in my area has been cut now multiple times since 2017. The first time, I was at a point where I had enough of the scandals and I was done with season tickets but the price cut was enough to get me back. The next two times, the bad basketball put me in the same position, but the cuts were large enough to keep me. Admittedly, I'm in the upper deck, so my seats aren't great. But I feel similar this year - if the season continues like it has so far, I won't be back without another price cut or a change in the program. It doesn't have to be a big-name coach, just someone who has been successful elsewhere as a head coach and who will be positive and get out in the community and put some fresh momentum in the program.

They raised my ticket prices 7% after last season. That was final straw for me.