Assistants have always generally done the grunt work and the HC comes in to seal the deal.
Kenny Payne's Recruiting
- Thread starter shadow force
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It seems Payne’s recruiting is based on excellent connections, especially to William Wesley. Wes is currently an executive VP with the Knicks, and is generally considered the best connected person in basketball. Hiring KP probably means a close relationship with Wes. In the current environment, that might be a pretty powerful thing, and a scary thing in Lexington.
Are you implying that Wes would come here to help KP? I highly doubt that as he is in a good place plus I don’t think he would do anything to rock the boat with Calamari.
I don’t think Wes has to go anywhere to help his anointed ones. He might use his considerable connections to steer some top kids to Payne. Cal will still get more than his share, but how it plays out could be pretty interesting.
Wes is friends with Kenny, not calimari.. Kenny has unlimited connections and resources to bring in the best talent every year!!
No offense but, is there anything concrete that leads you to believe that is the case or is that just wishful thinking?
This sounds like a job for Eric Mussleman.
Pegues - please try this lineup:
Ellis - Locke
Faulkner - West
Davis
Withers - JJ
Curry
Play Wheeler only if bigs get in foul trouble
Ellis - Locke
Faulkner - West
Davis
Withers - JJ
Curry
Play Wheeler only if bigs get in foul trouble
I’m 100% neutral on KP. Of course in reality it means I don’t care I guess.
All I know is:
- his recruiting success ALL came with a Swoosh on his shirt.
- Mack had a lot of HC expectations and couldn’t handle the pressure here.
IF he comes here all he has to do is win.
No big deal.
All I know is:
- his recruiting success ALL came with a Swoosh on his shirt.
- Mack had a lot of HC expectations and couldn’t handle the pressure here.
IF he comes here all he has to do is win.
No big deal.
many people including former Louisville players have said great things about Kenny Payne. He is highly respected.
hope we also take a look at Matt Mcahon of Murry State. young guy and in state. his team is #21 in the nation and his team is ranked high in offense and defense efficiency. Louisville job would be a step up in terms of TV exposure and pay for him.
hope we also take a look at Matt Mcahon of Murry State. young guy and in state. his team is #21 in the nation and his team is ranked high in offense and defense efficiency. Louisville job would be a step up in terms of TV exposure and pay for him.
Based on recent (as well as not so recent) history I’m very concerned about “hiring from within the Card family” with Payne.
Names (hire from within) and my analysis:
Penny - flop (Memphis)
Juwan H. - jury’s still out (Michigan)
Hubert D. - jury’s still out but looking bad (UNC)
Matt Doherty - total flop (UNC)
Woodson - jury’s still out but looking shaky (IU)
C. Drexler - total flop (Houston)
Ewing: flop (Georgetown)
Horn: flop (WKU)
Farmer: flop (UCLA)
I’m sure I’m missing a bunch. But the flops are much more prevalent than the success stories. Feel free to add to the flops or bring up the success stories I’ve missed.
And I forgot the silly X & O part.
Has he ever had to form a game plan? Call a last shot play? I’m sure he’s had input on these type things of course.
But has it ever been HIS call with HIM answering the questions if it fails?
There is more to Head coaching than recruiting and developing.
Just like there is more to Athletic Directing than just “managing” what’s already there.
I thought we learned that lesson.
KP has the “tools” to be successful.
Does he have the desire, attitude….., and thick skin to deal with us is the question.
Horn wasn't a flop @ WKU his final year he coached them to the Sweet 16. Horn finished 1st or 2nd in his league 4 out of 5 times at WKU.
The analysis on Howard is strange, but you aren't the only one that brings him up and says jury still out, lots of people say that. He was named the AP and Sporting News HC of the year and was named the B10 COY, literally last year. 1 seed went to E8 and in top 5 entire year. I believe his first year they may have been on the way to making the NCAAs. I'm not sure how this doesn't = success. If you just need more years I guess okay, let's just not bother listing him, Hubert, or Woodson then.
So you got 7 flops, I added 2 more, could be others not sure
Ewing massive
Mullin massive
Clyde massive
Farmer massive
Doherty massive
Penny massive but they are hot LOL!
Dan Muller Illinois St - massive
So the counter successes, 6... could be others but I can't think of any
Painter - Purdue
Boeheim - Syracuse
Roy - UNC
Huggins - WVU
Horn - WKU (he didn't flop there LOL!)
Mack - Xavier -We are laughing but going by your criteria he was a success at X. He averaged 1 ppg one year for Xavier LOLOLOL!!!!!!!
We got one more that is tough to evaluate. Ollie - UCONN yeah there were some major problems but they did win a title so I dunno what we call him.
Flops 7, Succeses 6.
Pending more examples LOL!
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I keep asking the question....who do you want if not Payne? You're going to tell me that with an NCAA cloud, no AD, no President, and a smaller wallet right now that Mick Cronin, Scott Drew or Eric Musselman is going to come here? Chris Beard!? No....
So who do you want? You have every right to dislike the idea of KP coming to Louisville. But people keep complaining and then throwing at lists with candidates that just aren't going to happen and then they throw out names that would just kill the program. You want Ed Cooley or Steve Forbes or Kevin Willard or Dan Hurley or Shaka Smart? Why? Dan Hurley is in his 4th season at UConn and he's barely won 60% of his games and he's 2-3 in the tournament. Shaka Smart hasn't won an NCAA tournament game since 2012. Ed Cooley is 1-5 in the NCAA tournament. Kevin Willard is 1-4...
People are so focused on not hiring a HC without head coaching experience that they would rather hire head coaches with head coaching experience but that experience shows us that they aren't very good. When you hire someone like Dan Hurley or Ed Cooley with these resumes you're hiring them and saying "your resume as it stands currently isn't going to cut it here at Louisville. You have to be better than you've done YOUR ENTIRE CAREER in order to be successful here at Louisville." How is hiring a coach with a resume full of results that wouldn't cut it here at Louisville any better than hiring a coach with no head coaching experience?
So who do you want? You have every right to dislike the idea of KP coming to Louisville. But people keep complaining and then throwing at lists with candidates that just aren't going to happen and then they throw out names that would just kill the program. You want Ed Cooley or Steve Forbes or Kevin Willard or Dan Hurley or Shaka Smart? Why? Dan Hurley is in his 4th season at UConn and he's barely won 60% of his games and he's 2-3 in the tournament. Shaka Smart hasn't won an NCAA tournament game since 2012. Ed Cooley is 1-5 in the NCAA tournament. Kevin Willard is 1-4...
People are so focused on not hiring a HC without head coaching experience that they would rather hire head coaches with head coaching experience but that experience shows us that they aren't very good. When you hire someone like Dan Hurley or Ed Cooley with these resumes you're hiring them and saying "your resume as it stands currently isn't going to cut it here at Louisville. You have to be better than you've done YOUR ENTIRE CAREER in order to be successful here at Louisville." How is hiring a coach with a resume full of results that wouldn't cut it here at Louisville any better than hiring a coach with no head coaching experience?
The problem is we just don't know who is interested.
Scott Drew took the Baylor job on the heels of Dave Bliss covering up a murder, so maybe he likes a challenge? LOL!
Without being in Josh's office we just don't know who is on the radar.
I still think a lot can happen between now and the end of March also, to eliminate but also maybe produce candidates today that we see and don't see.
But I mean who? Who's going to shake out? Cronin, Drew and Musselman are the only 3 candidates I can even think of that would make an "impact." Do we think Billy D's gonna phone us? Brad Stevens? Jay Wright gonna have a huge change of heart and decide to leave Nova? Who could realistically "shake loose" that would be a great hire for us? Tony Bennett? I just don't even know who would even be on our wish list?
Billy D
Brad Stevens
Scott Drew
Eric Musselman
Mick Cronin
Tony Bennett
Cronin and Drew are not-impossible on that list. Musselman is almost impossible because I just don't see Arkansas letting him leave or him wanting to leave with the kids he's got coming in.
Then to me personally you've got this small sub category of:
Chris Holtmann
Andy Enfeld
They're both pretty good candidates but aren't too exciting but certainly better and more realistic than 99% of the names people are throwing out.
I'm just having a tough time even finding any candidate at any level that would excite or move the needle much. KP checks nearly every box - aside from head coaching experience. But again, 99% of the coaches we have a realistic shot have a resume that won't cut it at Louisville. So we're hiring someone asking them to be better than they have been.
Someone get that queen of Musselman's a nice derby hat and some luxury box suite tickets for the 2022 Derby. Think she'll want to stay in Fayetteville after that?
I'm staying on the Muss Buss as my #1 until he says no. I agree with you on everything else you are saying. I like Enfield but some "expert" on Nick Coffey's 790AM show said Enfield isn't a work 24/7/365 kind of guy and he (similar to Mack) like his personal time. Who knows if that is true, that's just dome dude on the radio saying this. While I don't blame a man for that, you have to be an intense 24/7/365 workaholic for hte Louisville job.....just like Eric Musselman.
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Trust me I am aligned with your overall position I've said the same in other threads and maybe even earlier in this thread.
I'm just adding another layer, which.. we don't know. And there is also gonna be a possibility a new name or two emerge that we didn't see coming because the season is currently going and coaches aren't going to distract their players during the season. I'm not saying that is going to happen, but it could.
I stand corrected on Horn. He flopped at South Carolina but had a good run @ his alma mater WKU. As far as Howard goes, yes he got off to a good start at Michigan, but is only 2-3 games over .500 this year. And that is with a decent amount of 4 and 5 star recruits.
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I think there are only a couple coaches that the fan base would support.
Scott Drew-no real negatives
Musselman-perfect fit would be great in city
There are bunch of other guys that could be successful.
Recruiting is everything. If you don’t have good/elite players good luck. My concern overall is, according to many, Payne with all his connections wont be able to recruit who can? Almost every coach that will be interested is supported by the Nike brand. If that is the really the case then you go with a Steve Forbes, Murray State coach or another young coach.
I think with NIL recruiting will not be an issue and shoe brands influence will be diminished
Scott Drew-no real negatives
Musselman-perfect fit would be great in city
There are bunch of other guys that could be successful.
Recruiting is everything. If you don’t have good/elite players good luck. My concern overall is, according to many, Payne with all his connections wont be able to recruit who can? Almost every coach that will be interested is supported by the Nike brand. If that is the really the case then you go with a Steve Forbes, Murray State coach or another young coach.
I think with NIL recruiting will not be an issue and shoe brands influence will be diminished
I'm not overly concerned about lack of exp. Already enough guys have proven it's not required. We just had a guy with over a decade of HC exp quit on the job. Crean has decades of exp he has assistants engaging in fist fights. There's plenty of exp guys that absolutely suck.
I'm not all that worried about the legacy angle, although I will say, I agree if you have to fire a former player it is a lot more painful than say, what we just went through. So I totally understand that. But legacy worked for Roy, Boeheim, Huggins, and Painter at big boy level.
It does feel like the recent handful of former players coming through have been blah as a HC. Not sure we have enough data to really say those guys can't do it, but it could be a thing.
The biggest question is why is a 55 yr old assistant is still an assistant. That is one thing I struggle to get past. We don't 100% know who contacted him, or who he has interviewed with and hasn't over the years. It just seems odd a guy sitting on the top SEC team bench for so long didn't get a look or offer from one of those middle/lower level SEC jobs, or maybe a decent non-P5 job. This is the big unknown part of his history. Has he really just been holding out for a good to great job?
But for all we know, this man may not even be a candidate in a few days, weeks, or months?
I'm not all that worried about the legacy angle, although I will say, I agree if you have to fire a former player it is a lot more painful than say, what we just went through. So I totally understand that. But legacy worked for Roy, Boeheim, Huggins, and Painter at big boy level.
It does feel like the recent handful of former players coming through have been blah as a HC. Not sure we have enough data to really say those guys can't do it, but it could be a thing.
The biggest question is why is a 55 yr old assistant is still an assistant. That is one thing I struggle to get past. We don't 100% know who contacted him, or who he has interviewed with and hasn't over the years. It just seems odd a guy sitting on the top SEC team bench for so long didn't get a look or offer from one of those middle/lower level SEC jobs, or maybe a decent non-P5 job. This is the big unknown part of his history. Has he really just been holding out for a good to great job?
But for all we know, this man may not even be a candidate in a few days, weeks, or months?
I think I can answer why Payne is still an assistant. He chose the big bucks ($900,000 to $1 Mil) at Kentucky instead of betting on himself to succeed at a mid-major or lower program. He took the money over building his resume.
All these other guys grinded it out at lower tier programs (Oats/Buffalo, Musselman/Nevada, Forbes/ETSU, etc) while Payne chose the security of no pressure and the big bucks with the Lexington Nike AAU program.
And now UofL is just supposed to hand a top 5-10 job over to him? Because he played here? SMH
100% accurate and my biggest concern giving him the job. If you don't have confidence in yourself, why should I?...
@zipp and @ShortCreek
Absolutely it just seems strange he hasn't been a HC somewhere by now. It's a question I'd assume he'd need to answer to Josh right?
I can understand maybe taking a pass on DePaul. That place is just a death trap career killer. But it would still seem like another position somewhere else could have been an option or at least of interest after all these years?
Absolutely it just seems strange he hasn't been a HC somewhere by now. It's a question I'd assume he'd need to answer to Josh right?
I can understand maybe taking a pass on DePaul. That place is just a death trap career killer. But it would still seem like another position somewhere else could have been an option or at least of interest after all these years?
Without delving into ancient history, I have little doubt that Payne could have landed a HC job before now at somewhere like EKU. As @ShortCreek said, he has played it safe.
Payne deserves a chance somewhere. I’m not sure that should be U of L nor that he would be getting it under better circumstances. I’m even less sure that he’ll be successful here, although I hope he proves me wrong…
There are death traps every where and quite frankly career killers. Valid concern but it’s not like he is the only assistant to be very selective. A lot of examples in all the sports.
We have been spoiled. The reality is it is tough to maintain consistency. The right guy with NIL world could be another long tenured coach.
We have been spoiled. The reality is it is tough to maintain consistency. The right guy with NIL world could be another long tenured coach.
I think for Kenny some people might be missing all the angles. It's a good discussion. Let's think about this...
If you are Kenny, why go be a HC at a low level job like EKU where you make base pay roughly 200k when you can be an assistant at a high profile job like UK and make roughly 1 million?
You get more exposure at UK and you can then parlay that into another high profile job like, for example... the NY Knicks and make roughly 1 million there too.
I don't know too many people that would go take a job willingly for 20% of what another employer would pay them, and it also be a job that would carry more responsibility.
So thinking out loud here, Kenny seems smart. But I like all the angles. What am I missing?
If you are Kenny, why go be a HC at a low level job like EKU where you make base pay roughly 200k when you can be an assistant at a high profile job like UK and make roughly 1 million?
You get more exposure at UK and you can then parlay that into another high profile job like, for example... the NY Knicks and make roughly 1 million there too.
I don't know too many people that would go take a job willingly for 20% of what another employer would pay them, and it also be a job that would carry more responsibility.
So thinking out loud here, Kenny seems smart. But I like all the angles. What am I missing?
Well all that exposure at sUcK didn’t do him any good or he chose not to take advantage of it himself. Which raises the question once again does he lack self confidence or desire or is he just not qualified. Another coach connected to a program that was a failure was Thompson who followed in his Dad’s footsteps in every way except for success.
Not sure how you can say this when his next job after UK is in the NBA making roughly 1 million per year.
I think nepotism is a bad idea. I'd go with Pat Knight at TX Tech and Joey Meyer at Depaul for my examples. Rick Pitino Jr anywhere. Etc. Etc.
John Thompson III at least coached at Princeton prior to taking the Georgetown job and made the tourney a few times there. Yeah if you compare his tenure to a HOF guy like his dad not so good.
But if you compare it to the guys that coached immediately prior to at Georgetown (Craig Esherick) and immediately after at Georgetown (Ewing) JTIII didn't do so bad!
One of these is not like the others
JTII3 - 13 years - 8 NCAAT Appearances, 6 yrs as a 4 seed or better, 1 Final Four, 1 S16, 3 Round of 32
Craig Esherick - 6 years - 1 NCAAT, 1 S16. - This guy had 0 coaching experience, not a former player but he's one more guy with 0 coaching experience that sucked.
Patrick Ewing - 5 years - 1 NCAAT, 0 wins, 0-14 in the Big East this year oh my.
John Thompson III at least coached at Princeton prior to taking the Georgetown job and made the tourney a few times there. Yeah if you compare his tenure to a HOF guy like his dad not so good.
But if you compare it to the guys that coached immediately prior to at Georgetown (Craig Esherick) and immediately after at Georgetown (Ewing) JTIII didn't do so bad!
One of these is not like the others
JTII3 - 13 years - 8 NCAAT Appearances, 6 yrs as a 4 seed or better, 1 Final Four, 1 S16, 3 Round of 32
Craig Esherick - 6 years - 1 NCAAT, 1 S16. - This guy had 0 coaching experience, not a former player but he's one more guy with 0 coaching experience that sucked.
Patrick Ewing - 5 years - 1 NCAAT, 0 wins, 0-14 in the Big East this year oh my.
I don’t know about you but the
majority of most people in coaching want to be the head honcho. Be the man in charge. Look around in every sport, assistants moving from good situations just for the opportunity to be a head coach. It actually sends a red flag to me for a guy who doesn’t want that opportunity for a chance to be a head coach, anywhere.
Hey,
Hope he proves me wrong as well. But, I’m fearful we’ll be right back here in 4-5 yrs. I’ll tell you this much, if he doesn’t succeed and we’re paying a big buyout the guy that negotiated that for UofL should be fired. With KP’s lack of head coaching experience the buyout should be completely one sided - in favor of UofL.
He went from sUcK to the NBA as another assistant, sure it was a step up from college but he is still not the guy in charge.
I agree - though given UofL’s circumstances - a low buy out might be difficult to successfully negotiate.
IMO, Payne’s position on a buyout will be a super telling factor. Insisting on a buyout that would be in line with an experienced HC, would demonstrate that he either isn’t confident in his ability to succeed or, he’s not that interested in the gig.
Or both.
I would think Louisville has like, zero leverage power on buy-outs.
The job is an absolute dumpster fire coming off a losing record waiting for sanctions and any new coach is gonna demand a solid buyout.
These dudes are all hired guns. If you want a desirable coach you're gonna have to pay him given the cirumstances.
In theory Kenny helps you financially because there's no counter offer bidding war from his current employer and no buyout ya gotta fork over. But I don't see why he's going to give us a buyout discount during any potential contract negotiations. If you offer Muss you know Arky is coming back offering more, etc.
This is where @zipp needs to give us the financial strategy!
The job is an absolute dumpster fire coming off a losing record waiting for sanctions and any new coach is gonna demand a solid buyout.
These dudes are all hired guns. If you want a desirable coach you're gonna have to pay him given the cirumstances.
In theory Kenny helps you financially because there's no counter offer bidding war from his current employer and no buyout ya gotta fork over. But I don't see why he's going to give us a buyout discount during any potential contract negotiations. If you offer Muss you know Arky is coming back offering more, etc.
This is where @zipp needs to give us the financial strategy!
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Kenny's making 2-3-4x more $ than a guy in charge at a lower level.
And that's all I'm pointing out is all these guys are hired guns and all they care about is $.
Kenny has an advantage the grinders don't, he has the network to avoid needing to go get EKU into the NCAAT to springboard to make his millions. He's not going to take a 750k pay cut so he can be the guy in charge for Podunk U.
A lot of these former players are holding out for a job they want. They saw Kerr win a title for the Warriors without paying those old school dues and a lot of P5 hires recently are guys that didn't bother to waste their time trying to be the guy in charge for 250k. Admins are watching some of them do assistant work and they are giving them a chance without making them break bread at the lower level.
The landscape changed.
It would be hilarious if he ends up not even being a candidate.
And that's all I'm pointing out is all these guys are hired guns and all they care about is $.
Kenny has an advantage the grinders don't, he has the network to avoid needing to go get EKU into the NCAAT to springboard to make his millions. He's not going to take a 750k pay cut so he can be the guy in charge for Podunk U.
A lot of these former players are holding out for a job they want. They saw Kerr win a title for the Warriors without paying those old school dues and a lot of P5 hires recently are guys that didn't bother to waste their time trying to be the guy in charge for 250k. Admins are watching some of them do assistant work and they are giving them a chance without making them break bread at the lower level.
The landscape changed.
It would be hilarious if he ends up not even being a candidate.
There are probably more elite assistants than elite coaches. Most up and coming assistants have failed as HC. There a very few guys that reached elite level. The odds are you won’t find the next Hall of Fame coach.
If you can’t land a Scott Drew, Wright, or Bennett then all the rest are a educated guess.
If you can’t land a Scott Drew, Wright, or Bennett then all the rest are a educated guess.
Elite? Yes. But, proven track record vs no record or resume? Definitely. Example, while I no relatively zero about Steve Forbes at Wake I do know he has been successful at both ETSU and Wake. IMO, that beats walking hand & hand blinding with a guy who has zero head coaching experience.
I’ve coached a little, no where near D-I level. But this is a fact, there’s a helluva difference between being “the man” and being an assistant. It’s not even close, I’ve been both and the buck stops with you when you’re “the man.”
I’ve coached a little, no where near D-I level. But this is a fact, there’s a helluva difference between being “the man” and being an assistant. It’s not even close, I’ve been both and the buck stops with you when you’re “the man.”
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I agree but there have been extremely successful coaches with none to little head coaching experience. It is a factor but not the clear indicator a coach will not be successful.
For me Payne is all about his overall plan. If he doesn’t have plan that can be executed then it is a hard pass.
For me Payne is all about his overall plan. If he doesn’t have plan that can be executed then it is a hard pass.
Forbes has 0 career NCAAT wins. We're now lowering the bar on what is defined as success.
He may be a good coach. I'm not trying to dog on anybody.
If we're discussing this guy this is an indictment on the candidate pool.
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