Fire Payne

[the artist FKA zipp]

There’s a growing disconnect between fans who hang onto the nostalgia of being a “top 7-8 program” and the way the program is managed in 2023.

We are no longer at that level nor are we headed there. It’s now okay for a first time head coach to get this job, fail miserably, and be brought back.

It’s okay to financially support the program at a lower level than we did before joining the ACC.

No problem if we need to consider closing the upper level of the arena. It was overbuilt anyway.

We can just operate 50-50 jackpots and sell $20 lower arena seats to shore up our meager finances.

If any of that sounds like the stuff underpinning an elite basketball program, I must have missed the prior regime executing on the same plan. We do need a few executions alright…

 

[TheRealVille]

This is quite an incredible imagination you have here.

I know it's highly unlikely but it could be a potential compromise with KP and Heird. I don't think KP is someone like Bobby Petrino with an ego so wide, destroying a season to get paid is ho hum.

KP has to have self doubt and taking the second chair to learn from a top coach for a few years could improve his coaching aspirations. It would be better than getting fired after starting next season 3 and 7.

Thinking out of the box is something we've seen here before. No one in their right mind would believe Rick Pitino would be hired at UofL during those last days of the struggling Crum era. I remember the first time I read that Pitino was someone Jurich wanted. I laughed out loud saying it will never happen.

 

[shadow force]

I'm sure Payne will be here next season unless something unforseen happens. But this point below is something some of us fans have been saying all season, especially after Payne complained time and again that certain players didn't want to play hard, give effort, etc.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

It’s pretty obvious that Payne is a terrible motivator personally as well as his “system.” If you’re self motivated, you’ve got a shot playing well for him. A guy like JJ Traynor.

And why would he be a good motivator? Those of us old enough to remember him playing here never saw that in him, certainly not compared to his teammates. He was always a friendly guy, pretty good athlete, and never caused trouble. But a leader and motivator, not so much.

I seriously doubt that’s something he can learn how to do if he’s not that way himself. But it’s a sure thing he’s gonna get at least one more year to prove it…

 

[Thecycle27]

I completely disagree with the notion that coaches motivate the unmotivated. You have lost your mind if you think players that made it to the highest level of their profession are not motivated. The hours in the gym to reach that level happened away from coaches.

I have no issue with the opinions he didn’t motivate this team. Hard to argue. But saying KP isn’t a motivated or lazy is a stupid take.

I want a team full of guys that are obsessed with winning. When you get 7-10 that are talented and obsessed coaching is easy.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

…You have lost your mind if you think players that made it to the highest level of their profession are not motivated…

I’m not sure if a 5-star kid qualifies as the “highest level of their profession,” but was James Quick exuding motivation when he casually stepped out of bounds at Clemson with no time on the clock?

Those who want Payne to recruit at the highest possible level are presenting him with precisely the most difficult kids to motivate IMO. However he does it, it’s why his slapd!ck mentor experiences the dwindling success he still does…he gets high talent to play hard. No real coaching involved otherwise.

Payne has shown me nothing in this regard. Kids don’t get yanked from games after compounding mistakes. Maybe it’s how he wanted to be coached himself. All I know is it sure doesn’t work…

 

[Mike'sMarbles]

"Kenny! Tell us your plan! We'll listen! If we like it you can stay!" Come on guys, Kenny isn't going to fall for the banana in his tailpipe.

I don't believe anyone is going to change their minds if they hear Kenny's plans for next year no matter what he says.

I can only assume this is a trap you're setting for Kenny to get more ammo to use against him. Why bother with that kind of subterfuge. The guy is going to finish with 4 wins. What more do you need?

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I know it's highly unlikely but it could be a potential compromise with KP and Heird. I don't think KP is someone like Bobby Petrino with an ego so wide, destroying a season to get paid is ho hum.

KP has to have self doubt and taking the second chair to learn from a top coach for a few years could improve his coaching aspirations. It would be better than getting fired after starting next season 3 and 7.

Thinking out of the box is something we've seen here before. No one in their right mind would believe Rick Pitino would be hired at UofL during those last days of the struggling Crum era. I remember the first time I read that Pitino was someone Jurich wanted. I laughed out loud saying it will never happen.

We can probably get Kenny to wash our cars after he agrees to taking that demotion. Maybe cut our grass. We're just scratching the surface here. This is awesome.

 

[Cardiac Red]

There’s a growing disconnect between fans who hang onto the nostalgia of being a “top 7-8 program” and the way the program is managed in 2023.

We are no longer at that level nor are we headed there. It’s now okay for a first time head coach to get this job, fail miserably, and be brought back.

It’s okay to financially support the program at a lower level than we did before joining the ACC.

No problem if we need to consider closing the upper level of the arena. It was overbuilt anyway.

We can just operate 50-50 jackpots and sell $20 lower arena seats to shore up our meager finances.

If any of that sounds like the stuff underpinning an elite basketball program, I must have missed the prior regime executing on the same plan. We do need a few executions alright…

All programs go through highs and lows over time. How you bounce back and more importantly, how quick you bounce back determines if you keep your spot in the pecking order. Right now our history speaks for itself. Throw another turd in the punch bowl next year and you're approaching a very slippery slope and when a lot of those people slide over the edge a bunch of them aren't coming back.

When interest dwindles the program dies.

 

[Knucklehank1]

"Kenny! Tell us your plan! We'll listen! If we like it you can stay!" Come on guys, Kenny isn't going to fall for the banana in his tailpipe.

I don't believe anyone is going to change their minds if they hear Kenny's plans for next year no matter what he says.

I can only assume this is a trap you're setting for Kenny to get more ammo to use against him. Why bother with that kind of subterfuge. The guy is going to finish with 4 wins. What more do you need?

Personally I’d like to hear his plan to leverage UofL support (particularly NIL opportunities) to improve the level of talent. I will be asked in the next two months to renew my season tix, if I don’t hear something that I can grasp onto then I’m certainly not renewing.

 

[Thecycle27]

I’m not sure if a 5-star kid qualifies as the “highest level of their profession,” but was James Quick exuding motivation when he casually stepped out of bounds at Clemson with no time on the clock?

Those who want Payne to recruit at the highest possible level are presenting him with precisely the most difficult kids to motivate IMO. However he does it, it’s why his slapd!ck mentor experiences the dwindling success he still does…he gets high talent to play hard. No real coaching involved otherwise.

Payne has shown me nothing in this regard. Kids don’t get yanked from games after compounding mistakes. Maybe it’s how he wanted to be coached himself. All I know is it sure doesn’t work…

He made the NBA. That is like .01 percent of the people that play the game. God! You are smarter than this he didn’t get to the NBA by not being self motivated, not coachable, unable to be motivated and lazy.

Now the shift is occurring and it’s a big one a high percentage of freshman aren’t ready to play at this level. I wonder why? Because they have been coasting on their ability. College coaches are taking older players. They understand everything that goes into being a college basketball player. Does anyone think Curry is going to be taken by anyone in the ACC? I sure don’t. It has everything to do with him not being a player that can motivate himself.

I want KP to find freshman that are grounded and willing to go through a process tied with older guys that are obsessed with winning. They are plenty of players that fit that mold. He finds a 5 star that fits that great.

We will see how the roster is built. Then we will see if he makes the same mistakes he made with this team accountability. People maybe right or he may prove people wrong.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Personally I’d like to hear his plan to leverage UofL support (particularly NIL opportunities) to improve the level of talent. I will be asked in the next two months to renew my season tix, if I don’t hear something that I can grasp onto then I’m certainly not renewing.

Not many programs are transparent with NIL, if any, probably because their involvement is supposed to be limited to none. Fans would probably like to get more info on NIL at every school in the country. Not sure if that will ever happen unless the players go on payroll. I believe there is NIL info for UofL already out there, but I admit I don't follow it. I don't hear any HC from either big sport talking much publicly about how they handle NIL, at the most it's just vague stuff, so not sure why we want to hold Kenny Payne and Josh to some higher bar than other head coaches and AD's are held everywhere else? Maybe they do, I just doubt it.

But really the overall thing is pretty obvious, so I don't know what any fan would be really expecting to hear from somebody on the microphone anyway. Kenny wants to obtain the most talented players he can, just like every other college basketball coach does, and he wants to win. It looks like upper mgt is going to be allowing him time to see if he can do these things.

 

[nccardfan]

Hey we're still Louisville a top 7-8 program of all time,. We have some of the best facilities in the country, with great fan support when we have a great product to cheer for. There are PLENTY coaches that would be confident in coming here and being successful right away with NIL and the Portal..

OK, name them for me. If they were so qualified, why didn't they get the gig over a coach who had "no" head coaching experience...

 

[nccardfan]

Oh I'm in total agreement with you. K Pain turned Hercules into the Pillsbury Dough Boy

Superman into Jimmy Olsen...

 

[Cardiac Red]

If they were so qualified, why didn't they get the gig over a coach who had "no" head coaching experience...

Do you really need the answer to that question..

 

[Morgantown Card]

I just want to say I want nothing more than for Kenny PAYNE to win those games next year, but I don't have much faith that it will happen.

 

[OldhamCard335]

No then you see changes, whether KP is fired and Danny Manning takes over. We don't know if this is just Kenny's shit show, the players fault, everyone's fault, Josh Heird's fault, cleaning and starting over is not practical, financially or otherwise.

Also just saying if you weren't going to fire him at 4-18 or whatever, you weren't expecting him to make a miraculous turnaround, the season was already over. If we decided to let him finish it out no matter what then I'm not sure firing him now makes any more sense. He's got a few guys coming in, so we fire him and they go elsewhere and then no new coach is going to bring in much better if we get rid of everyone. Not sure a Bill Musselman will be beating our door down. A new coach is probably not going to want to work with some of these players and realistically who wants to come to a team that was 4-30.

IMHO, we end up in the same boat if we give him another full year or fire him after 10 games next season. Either way, we end up with another sub .500 season. I believe we’re better off making the change now. I’ve seen absolutely nothing to recommend giving KP one more day at the helm of this program after our next two losses.

 

[OldhamCard335]

So coaches can’t motivate players to play hard. So, we have an entire team of unmotivated players. Let’s say, for the moment, that is true. So if a coach can’t motivate a player to play hard how does that same coach motivate a player to come to the University of Louisville? Here’s the argument I keep hearing. Kenny has bad players. Kenny can’t motivate these players to get the most from them. But, Kenny can motivate great players to come here. And, the only way Kenny can avoid another 4-26 season is to somehow find players who are self-motivated to come here, who are all self-motivated to play hard and are so good that Kenny’s inability to motivate and coach won’t matter.

OK…I think I get it.

 

[Thecycle27]

No you don’t get it. No coach can motivate a player that isn’t self motivated. Pitino couldn’t motivate Character, Price, Wade or Aaron. It clearly not Pitino it is the player. Pitino just made their life miserable and they left.

Pitinio rarely missed on guys because he recruited guys that were obsessed like him. We haven’t even seen if KP can identify players that fit him. All we know is these players didn’t.

Good news is we are going to find out.

 

[TheRealVille]

What is the kind of player that fits KP? I'm sorry but it's a silly notion to think that the problem this season was a roster full of players with no self motivation. What's the point being a player if you're not motivated?

We know the main body of players on this team have pro ball aspirations with a few actually believing they can make the NBA. Why wouldn't they be motivated? You can't reach your dreams if you don't try.

For me, it's more about apathy when these players realized their head coach wasn't someone who could help them reach those dreams. Now I'm not privy to any player complaints if there's any, but if most of these guys transfer, I think it will be clear these players just had no confidence in their head coach.

So they basically just played out the season knowing they have options to find the coach they believe will make them better. The only real time they played for someone other than themselves, was the 2013 Champs. No doubt KP picked up on that when the same shitty effort returned after that win.

I have never seen anything more clearer in the four decades I've watched sports. Retaining KP is just not smart or even practical if returning the program to its vested position in men's college basketball is the goal.

 

[OldhamCard335]

No you don’t get it. No coach can motivate a player that isn’t self motivated. Pitino couldn’t motivate Character, Price, Wade or Aaron. It clearly not Pitino it is the player. Pitino just made their life miserable and they left.

Pitinio rarely missed on guys because he recruited guys that were obsessed like him. We haven’t even seen if KP can identify players that fit him. All we know is these players didn’t.

Good news is we are going to find out.

Thanks…now I get it. Kenny needs great players who are self-motivated to come play for a wildly unsuccessful coach. My problem is, what is going to self-motivate a great player to come here and play for Kenny? His reputation as a player developer? His extensive knowledge of the X and O’s? His success as a head coach? His tournament experience? His in game play calling in close games? His ability put together a useable roster?

That’s gonna take a lot of self-motivation on somebody’s part.

 

[nccardfan]

IMHO, we end up in the same boat if we give him another full year or fire him after 10 games next season. Either way, we end up with another sub .500 season. I believe we’re better off making the change now. I’ve seen absolutely nothing to recommend giving KP one more day at the helm of this program after our next two losses.

You're giving KP and Eaves/Beard etc the benefit of the doubt. KP says it is the players, I think it is the coach. If he can't do something substantially different with a new group of players, we will know it is Kenny. After 10 games the season is not totally lost because you haven't started ACC games. You promote DM or hire somebody else...

 

[nccardfan]

No you don’t get it. No coach can motivate a player that isn’t self motivated. Pitino couldn’t motivate Character, Price, Wade or Aaron. It clearly not Pitino it is the player. Pitino just made their life miserable and they left.

Pitinio rarely missed on guys because he recruited guys that were obsessed like him. We haven’t even seen if KP can identify players that fit him. All we know is these players didn’t.

Good news is we are going to find out.

Hell, it turns out Pitino had trouble motivating Terrance Williams...

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

No you don’t get it. No coach can motivate a player that isn’t self motivated. Pitino couldn’t motivate Character, Price, Wade or Aaron. It clearly not Pitino it is the player. Pitino just made their life miserable and they left.

Pitinio rarely missed on guys because he recruited guys that were obsessed like him. We haven’t even seen if KP can identify players that fit him. All we know is these players didn’t.

Good news is we are going to find out.

The difference is if Pitino couldn't motivate you, he jettisoned you.

In Payne's case, he'll sub you back in at the next timeout...

 

[OldhamCard335]

You're giving KP and Eaves/Beard etc the benefit of the doubt. KP says it is the players, I think it is the coach. If he can't do something substantially different with a new group of players, we will know it is Kenny. After 10 games the season is not totally lost because you haven't started ACC games. You promote DM or hire somebody else...

Who you gonna hire after the season has started? And….Me give Eaves, Beard and company the benefit of the doubt. They are the ones who got us into this mess. I don’t understand that statement at all. So maybe we agree. I too think it’s the coach. He sucks. Why give him another year?

 

[Thecycle27]

If what you guys believe is true explain how the master motivator couldn’t motivate everyone that walked through the door?

I never said the whole team was unmotivated. I said coaches can’t motivate players that aren’t self motivated and super competitive.

Think of it this way Peyton, Russ, Gorgi, Harrell and Hancock were all super competitive they fit Pitino. Pitinio didn’t make them that way they came in with that attitude or mindset.

I don’t know what kind of player that fits KP. We will see.

 

[Thecycle27]

The difference is if Pitino couldn't motivate you, he jettisoned you.

In Payne's case, he'll sub you back in at the next timeout...

I agree with this 100 percent. That is a legit argument against Payne. I have said that was his biggest mistake. Do you know he won’t do that with players he brings in? It goes back to having a standard and holding players to that.

 

[nccardfan]

Who you gonna hire after the season has started? And….Me give Eaves, Beard and company the benefit of the doubt. They are the ones who got us into this mess. I don’t understand that statement at all. So maybe we agree. I too think it’s the coach. He sucks. Why give him another year?

Its rather simple but you're only set on firing him. The explanation is that he doesn't have the right players, the right culture.... You want to fire him after 1 season.. Beard and Eaves will simply continue by saying he wasn't given a fair chance. You have to prove that he was. That's why you give you a number of games with a new team to either show a difference or he falls flat on his face but not before the entire season is wasted. He goes 0-10, 1 -9, 2-8, I don't think Eaves/Beard can argue anything. Now if he goes 5-5, 6-4, you might have to let it play out more even though you're still convinced he's not the guy.

P.S - Eaves and Beard are only partially to blame. They had nothing to do with making him sign a contract. The financial side is still the main factor as well.

Also if we keep comparing Pitino and Payne... I'm not sure its even remotely a fair conversation.

 

[Cardiac Red]

Its rather simple but you're only set on firing him. The explanation is that he doesn't have the right players, the right culture.... You want to fire him after 1 season.. Beard and Eaves will simply continue by saying he wasn't given a fair chance. You have to prove that he was. That's why you give you a number of games with a new team to either show a difference or he falls flat on his face but not before the entire season is wasted. He goes 0-10, 1 -9, 2-8, I don't think Eaves/Beard can argue anything. Now if he goes 5-5, 6-4, you might have to let it play out more even though you're still convinced he's not the guy.

P.S - Eaves and Beard are only partially to blame. They had nothing to do with making him sign a contract. The financial side is still the main factor as well.

Also if we keep comparing Pitino and Payne... I'm not sure its even remotely a fair conversation.

Totally disagree. Why give him 10 games ? He's had 30 games and he's sucked out loud ! Giving him any games next year is setting us back another year at least.

He's already failed enough to be fired.. Any GM at any high level job would be gone after coasting their company this much money..

 

[Thecycle27]

At some point Louisville is going to have to be patient with a coach. I prefer being patient with a former player. If it doesn’t work the next guy better work because if he doesn’t you are stuck with him for the life of his contract. GM’s that don’t have money have more patience than God.

 

[Cardiac Red]

At some point Louisville is going to have to be patient with a coach.

Not one that goes 4-27..

I'm beginning to think you're a ky fan..That's the only people that want K Pain to stick around so we can continue to suck ..

 

[KerryRhodes]

Not one that goes 4-27..

I'm beginning to think you're a ky fan..That's the only people that want K Pain to stick around so we can continue to suck ..

Facts.
One of my uofk co worker HATES the Jeff Brohm hire. Stated that the Cards did satterfield wrong.

If Payneful wanted a 2nd year year, he should have coached like it. He's just passing time.......

 

[achilles992000]

the school's coaching contracts are ridiculous now.

i like Brohm but $5 million a year for 6 years plus $5.5 million for his assistant coaches. if i read correctly.
plus KP's $3.5 million a year.

no reason to win in these contracts. these guys get paid no matter what.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

the school's coaching contracts are ridiculous now.

i like Brohm but $5 million a year for 6 years plus $5.5 million for his assistant coaches. if i read correctly.
plus KP's $3.5 million a year.

no reason to win in these contracts. these guys get paid no matter what.

Yeah this is a million/billion $ industry. Those TV contracts are insanity. The $ is the American economy at work.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

Unfortunately there’s no free lunch. You want someone like Brohm, you have to pay. Same goes for a buyout. It’s not what you wanna pay, it’s what the market is paying.

That’s not our issue. We’ve made too many hires that turned out badly. We have amateurs running athletics…

 

[CardinalDave]

It gets exponentially worse for everyone involved if KP is retained and they start poorly next year. Say we have a losing record at the start of the ACC schedule…. The pressure on KP and the team and the athletic department will be tremendous.

we just watched an entire season and I still don’t know what the philosophy of winning basketball is with this staff.

 

[TheRealVille]

Not one that goes 4-27..

I'm beginning to think you're a ky fan..That's the only people that want K Pain to stick around so we can continue to suck ..

I agree. I don't know one single Cards fan that wants KP back next season. Now some think it's impossible to fire him but never say things like he should get another chance.

It would be different if KP was 36 instead of 56 or had some previous head coaching accomplishments. For those defending him, you are banking on basically a miracle. Praying for a huge unlikelyhood to happen. There is simply nothing that would suggest KP is going to return Louisville basketball to its former stature.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

I don’t see how pressure is any higher next year. It’s about what his supporters are willing to endure. No one in an objective position thinks Payne will fare much better next year.

The biggest hurdle is money. We have none, and buying him out even next year won’t be cheap. I don’t know how you work around that when your financial situation keeps worsening with time…

 

[CardinalDave]

Money looms large when the Yum center is 25% full

 

[1Catmantoo]

You’re making excuses just like the Payne defenders do. For different reasons, both camps are delusional…

I love Kenny Payne and thought he’d do a great job. Given enough time, he still may get it done. But, UL has been the most disappointing team in the country this year, and it’s not even close. I hope KP gets another season to prove himself.