I don't post here often, but every time I see CCM, I'm going to think of the music conservatory at University of Cincy...
2 Prospects already offered by Mack Team
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I don't post here often, but every time I see CCM, I'm going to think of the music conservatory at University of Cincy...
And every other coach. Would like to see that list of teams that won the NCAA with hidden gems.
What I didn’t post is during that same time period, UK had years with two sometimes 3 McD boys and didn’t win squat...
It’s longer than Calipari’s 1 title.
Let’s take our 2013 “Boom Boys” for example. Did we have any OADs? Would we win without Luke and Tim Henderson’s clutch shooting? Gorgui was a Junior. Siva was a Senior. All-recruiting service superstar Russ Smith was a junior.
They call that developed talent, not “hidden gems”. But you can call them whatever you like. How many of the OAD teams are still playing right now? Duke? Nope. UK? Nope. Arizona? Nope. The only one you’ve got is Kansas - and need I remind you again they are an Adidas school, Mr “Adidas hurts our recruiting”?
Villanova, Michigan, Loyola-Chicago, and even Kansas are veteran, upperclassmen-led TEAMS. That is what it takes to win championships in college. Not revolving doors of prima donna “talent”.
Class dismissed.
This has already been dealt with dude. Our 2013 team started 3 McD AA's plus a 4 star center. You cannot name any teams that have won the NCAA with recruits like you say you want. I am serious. How stupid can people get saying they don't want to land the most talented players they can get. Total loony tunes stuff to say you want "hidden gems" instead of high rated talent. I don't give a crap what Calipari does with the talent he gets. Do you think Coach K or Roy Williams or John Wooden or Denny Crum or Rick Pitino would have won with 3 star players?
You are so off base it is incredulous. 3 star players are rankings of players in the current system did not even exist when Wooden or Crum were coaching.
You are a modern day basketball idiot trying to even compare the talent of the 60's, 70's and even the 80's in today's current ranking systems.
For a frame of reference, I started closely following UofL when Unseld starred in the 60's.
When did you start following the team closely and be honest with your answer?. Do not be afraid to reveal yourself, you should have nothing to hide here amongst fellow Card fans. Patiently waiting your level of expertise base on you answer.
Who said we only three star player? I don’t want the OAD kids. They bring no value. Zero.
3 McD AA starting, eh? One was a senior. One never finished his career here and is rotting in the d league. How many years did the other stick around? Oh yeah, 4.
No one is advocating that we recruit like we are Boston College. But we don’t need to OAD to win big either. That system doesnt work and we don’t want it here. Ever. Just like most of your lame takes like Nike, you are just going to have to pound sand, because your opinion sucks, the majority doesn’t agree with you, you aren’t going to get your way, and there isn’t anything you can do about it.
I have never once mentioned one and done players but you would turn down Duke or UK's one and done players if you could get them? More loony tunes nonsense.
So you would turn down Marvin Bagley or Karl Towns or Anthony Davis? Like I said loony tunes.
What about the underperforming teams Denny had WITH McDonald's AAs? He recruited six of them after he won the 86 championship.
There's no strong correlation between U of L's postseason success in men's basketball and blue chip high school recruits. Just in some fans' minds...
As far as I remember the only Denny Crum teams that had that type of talent and didn't make the Final Four was maybe 1981 and 1989 when Pervis got injured. I can't really take you seriously with your other comment. Pretty obvious that when Denny recruited top talent he usually made deep runs and won championships. The idea that our program should reject highly talented players is insane. He certainly went downhill when he could no longer get the top talent. Pitino tried to recruit the guys UK was getting but since he couldn't get them, in your mind he didn't really want them which is truly delusional.
I just quoted you a fact you're trying to argue around. Denny's success (and failure) had to do with more than blue-chip recruits.
And I never discussed what Pitino "wanted". I said his best U of L teams were not stocked with blue chip players who performed like blue chip players...
His success came because he was a great coach but all of his successful seasons were when he had great talent. Same for John Wooden and Coach K. They did not have big success without top talent. You are trying to argue that 2+2=137 by saying there is no correlation to success and having top talent. It is like you are living in bizarro world. Pitino's best teams here were absolutely stocked with blue chip players. Unfortunately Pitino just never landed that many here.
Pitino's 2013 championship team was not stocked with blue chip players. Behanan was a marginal 5-star guy. Key players like Russ Smith and Luke Hancock were 2-star...
They sure meet my definition of blue chip players. 3 McD AA's and a big talented future NBA 4 star center. Smith was probably the most talented player and Hancock was like a coach on the floor. Great talent and great depth and plenty of experience. All facts that you cannot dispute.
You've lost track. We're talking high school recruit rankings. Not YOUR ranking. Any player on a great team looks good...
You need to send your ideas about recruiting lower rated players to Coach Mack so he won't keep trying to get all these 5 star guys. He might enjoy a good laugh.
So bad or mediocre players make great teams? Can you name one?
Title team leading scorer Smith got 18ppg, next highest scorer was 10ppg.
The dude was a 2 star, which by definition of the HS rankings points to him as being a bad player in the context of this discussion. He carried the team most nights. He wasn't "probably" the team's best player, he was hands down the team's best player.
Yeah it was an ultimate team perfectly assembled but the heaviest lifting was done by a 2 star.
That said, recruiting matters and you don't want a team of 2 stars only - it doesn't matter if you want a team of 5 stars - you aren't getting that unless you are Duke or Kentucky.
Both those programs are finding out a lack of experience with the standard 5 star assembled team is stopping them when the post season tightens up and they play against teams with upperclassmen.
I like the idea of bringing in a 5 star that isn't a clear-cut OAD coming in - most instances the player's agenda/future is clear.
Kid for AZ declares for the NBA a couple minutes after a 1st Rd humiliation to Buffalo. Take a few of those on the chin here and the OAD loses a lot of it's shine.
One year rental just isn't ideal. It does bring a level of excitement, and probably help in future recruiting also. But the end result is a bit hollow in most instances.
The dude was a 2 star, which by definition of the HS rankings points to him as being a bad player in the context of this discussion. He carried the team most nights. He wasn't "probably" the team's best player, he was hands down the team's best player.
Yeah it was an ultimate team perfectly assembled but the heaviest lifting was done by a 2 star.
That said, recruiting matters and you don't want a team of 2 stars only - it doesn't matter if you want a team of 5 stars - you aren't getting that unless you are Duke or Kentucky.
Both those programs are finding out a lack of experience with the standard 5 star assembled team is stopping them when the post season tightens up and they play against teams with upperclassmen.
I like the idea of bringing in a 5 star that isn't a clear-cut OAD coming in - most instances the player's agenda/future is clear.
Kid for AZ declares for the NBA a couple minutes after a 1st Rd humiliation to Buffalo. Take a few of those on the chin here and the OAD loses a lot of it's shine.
One year rental just isn't ideal. It does bring a level of excitement, and probably help in future recruiting also. But the end result is a bit hollow in most instances.
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The 2013 team had talent, let's get that straight, they just weren't loaded with NBA talent. I don't agree with the constant statement the 2012 had three MM boys on it and that is what made them good. The 2012 team relied on Kuric, Smith, Smith, and Deng more than the MM boys.
It is always a mixture of the right MM boy(s) with really good college players that now how to play together. Give me the C from Kansas and PJ Washington they play well within the team concept. Give me a Mashburn, Griffith, Brunson, Davis, or a Siva all talented kids that played well in a team concept. These kids are these are the real diamonds.
The zero value is getting players that are more interested showing there NBA talents instead of working well within the team concept. The only reason it works at UK is they have so many Cal can use the bench to motivate.
It is always a mixture of the right MM boy(s) with really good college players that now how to play together. Give me the C from Kansas and PJ Washington they play well within the team concept. Give me a Mashburn, Griffith, Brunson, Davis, or a Siva all talented kids that played well in a team concept. These kids are these are the real diamonds.
The zero value is getting players that are more interested showing there NBA talents instead of working well within the team concept. The only reason it works at UK is they have so many Cal can use the bench to motivate.
Better pick your mic up again. Loyola hasn't gotten this far in the tournament in 55 years. Once again give me that list of NCAA winners without talent. The facts show that if you want to win the NCAA you better recruit the best players just like we used to do here.
Almost everything I thought of has been said so I only have a couple of things to add. I wish we kept Ray Ganong he has done a good job and he is really intense on the bench. Everybody is also forgetting about Wiley Brown and his artificial thumb. He was not a AA but he was a really good player for us who made a difference.
Gonzaga.
Virginia
You’re moving the goalposts again Mike. Do you even realize how foolish you are making yourself look? Nobody is advocating we recruit projects. But just like refusing to acknowledge Kansas in your ridiculous Nike argument - you simply do not read or listen. OADs - that is who we are talking about here. They are worthless to the program and they provide zero value. One. And. Dones. Do I need to repeat it again?
واحد والقيام به
Un et fini
Eins und fertig
Ένα και τελειωμένο
אחת מהן
Uno e fatto
1つと完了
Et factum est
Uno y hecho
قيمة الصفر
valeur zéro
Nullwert
μηδενική τιμή
ערך אפס
valore zero
ゼロ値
nulla valorem
valor cero
Please list the number of titles those schools have won. Once again, you are attempting to prove your point by trying to find exceptions to the rule but it is not working out for you. Now go down a list of NCAA champions in modern history and give me the ones that won using your recruiting strategy. When someone tells me they would pass on guys like Anthony Davis and Marvin Bagley I think it proves the insanity of their view. So if the next Bill Walton was coming out of a Louisville high school and wanted to stay home, you would reject him? LOL
Lots of resistance to middle ground... if you are keeping it real and want to introduce the next Bill Walton from a Louisville HS, I would take the guy. I would just rather not attempt to field a team of 4-6 next Bill Walton's every year.
Who is the most recent player out of a Louisville HS to fit that profile? Not trolling, how long has it been? Even Felton Spencer was a project to some extent.
Well we did take Jason Osborne - Wheat was great also in HS... I know I'm forgetting a few. But they weren't top national prospects.
Tony Kimbro may have been the last one, but I admit this is not my area of expertise. He was a HS Sr in 1985 I think. Manuel Forrest maybe?
We got to go so far back, and even these examples - they are not guaranteed greats either. Love the former Cards though, even the ones that weren't McD's AA!
There are exceptions to all rules.
Who is the most recent player out of a Louisville HS to fit that profile? Not trolling, how long has it been? Even Felton Spencer was a project to some extent.
Well we did take Jason Osborne - Wheat was great also in HS... I know I'm forgetting a few. But they weren't top national prospects.
Tony Kimbro may have been the last one, but I admit this is not my area of expertise. He was a HS Sr in 1985 I think. Manuel Forrest maybe?
We got to go so far back, and even these examples - they are not guaranteed greats either. Love the former Cards though, even the ones that weren't McD's AA!
There are exceptions to all rules.
Right. And let's not forget Kevin Durant didn't make it out of the 1st weekend. There are no guarantees in the post season no matter what strategy is applied in recruiting.
Bill Walton wasn’t a OAD, he has a degree. LMAO
You asked for one example of a team who excel with unheralded playes and I gave you one. That wasn’t acceptable so I gave you two more. I’m finding exceptions? So there is an Anthoney Davis who leads his team to an NCAA title each year? Who was UNC’s OAD Anthoney Davis last year? Who was Villanova’s the year before? Is Marvin Bagley still playing this weekend? Is Kentucky?
Keep moving that goalpost, boy. I’ll still keep kicking it through.
I’ll tell you what: the OAD rule came into effect in 2006. If you can show me that the NCAA tournament’s Most Outstanding Player over the last ten years has been won by a freshman more than 50% of the time, I’ll concede to your argument. But... we both know the answer already, don’t we?
Right blend but that right blend always includes some highly recruited players. One reason Mack is coming here is he knows you can only do so much with
Are you serious? Of course a Bill Walton today would be one and done. What does the situation in college basketball in 1972 have to do with today? I think you need to hook up with zippy and contact Coach Mack and tell him what a mistake he is making trying to recruit all those 5 star guys and that he needs to stick with the level of talent he had at Xavier. Let us know what he tells you.
What the does the MVP of the tournament have to do with this? I am still waiting for your list of NCAA champs that recruited only 3 and 4 star four year players.
correct. when you look at UK it's easy to say 'omg get all the 5* oad guys' but that's a special case where you can get ALL of the 5* oad guys. and really; they had to have some solid upperclassmen to get that championship even with the crew of burger guys they had.
similar to 2013 (may it rest in peace). 3 burger boys with solid developed 'regular' college guys like russ/dieng/ware/etc. that and those burger fellas were upperclassmen themselves.
now you look at what RP failed with. Aaron and VJ. 2 burger boys who didn't pan out (VJ is still there so if he does stay we'll see if CM can bring his talents out; and addendum; RP only had 1 year with him so who knows if the FBI thing never happened maybe RP could've got more there).
so yeah, mix it up to what the coach's strengths are. RP never did well with guys who wouldn't defend. K doesn't care and those guys excel. it's just how the coach works is how these guys turn out. RP got Russ going hot; but totally blew it with other guys. Cal, K, Self, etc are all the same i'm sure. just because you are ballbusting in HS doesn't mean you're going to do that in college then the nba. everything stacks.
You brought Bill Walton into it. Odd, because Walton is an Education-first guy, if you ever watched any basketball, you might know that. You could have said Lew Alcindor, and you probably would have been right.
Not all “5-stars” are OAD players. Was Malik Williams OAD? How about VJ King? Wayne Blackshear? Peyton Siva? Nobody said we needed to restrict recruiting to 3 & 4 stars. You really ought to try listening to the conversation. The point being made here is that the OAD system does not work, and OAD players bring no value.
Oh, as for your “list” - lets start with Villanova. Who from 2013-2015 signed a total of one 5 star recruit, the rest were 3-4 stars. Your argument is invalid...again.
Your take is weak, as usual. We are not going to start the OAD model, and we are not switching to Nike. Pound sand, little buddy.
IMO having a super talented OAD surrounded by a team of good upper classmen would be the optimal team as long as he learns his role and the team isn't solely constructed around him like Oklahoma was with the Young kid.
