I do think you guys will be relevant again before Arizona so there's that. They have 0 recruits coming in for next year they lost everything
Zipp recruiting hotboard
- Thread starter Cardinal Cash
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Including Mack, they all achieved about the same thing at Xavier. I'd use that as a metric for "ability"...
They didnt all achieve the same thing though. Gillen and Prosser didn't have the success the other 3 did at all. They have 1 sweet 16 between them. Mack has been past the sweet 16 as much as Miller and Matta combined. He also got the school's first 1 seed. He also competed in a tougher conference than any of his predecessors.
Fine, if you don't like the eye test, we can do this analytically... (You're right on Gillen and Prosser BTW.) This approach is weighted heavily by NCAA tourney performance as you're focusing on. But you're not accounting for how many opportunities each coach had. Matta, for example, coached at X for one-third the number of years as Mack.
So, Mack is about average for an X coach. We also don't know yet how clean the Top 3 guys have been...
Fine, if you don't like the eye test, we can do this analytically... (You're right on Gillen and Prosser BTW.) This approach is weighted heavily by NCAA tourney performance as you're focusing on. But you're not accounting for how many opportunities each coach had. Matta, for example, coached at X for one-third the number of years as Mack.
So, Mack is about average for an X coach. We also don't know yet how clean the Top 3 guys have been...
You are right, Mack is horrible. I can't believe we hired him. Like you I will be in the Yum Center cheering on our opponents.
Like the 2013 players thread you are using misleading stats. Matta made 1 elite 8 and 2 2nd round appearances. Since he coached such a short period at X his stats are skewed because of 1 performance. Remember Kevin Ollie is more likely to win the National championship than Rick Pitino, Roy Williams, and Coach K by your stats.
Never said Mack's horrible. Gravitating to extremes is a loser's argument. I said he's on par with the X coaches who preceded him, and objective data support that.
Many people don't like that pointed out because they HOPE for something better at U of L. That's fine as long as you understand that's what you're relying on...hope.
I’m sure your numbers are accurate, but they really just don’t matter. What does a coache’s time at Xavier have to do with his projected future? So you found a trend in a small sample size, so what? Your best hope is to get lucky and have your hypothesis hold true so you can boast about how you were right. There is nothing wrong with fans hoping to strike gold with Mack where Xavier didn’t. Don’t be such a wet blanket. It’s just sports man. Get pumped!
I "get pumped" on game day. In between, I think.
If you're a fisherman, you know where in the lake the small fish pool. And you don't throw your line in that part of the lake expecting a bass. We know what the coaching tree at Xavier has produced. Only an idiot looks at that and says "it's different this time"...
No matter who we hired we would be relying on some measure of hope that they'd be great. Donovan and Wright both won 2 titles each but they did it with the same groups of players. Who is to say that that wasn't a special group of players for them and they'd never win it again. Wright struggled with Nova when he was in the old BE. Could he come here and do what he didn't do in the Big East?
You make it sound like Mack an average coach and then pick and choose stats to attempt to support the argument. Mack isn't completely proven and there is some risk with the hire like any other hire would. Unlike you I can see that he has done things to show promise that he could be leading the next group of coaches to replace the current legends.
Jurich was an amazing AD but even he wasn't 100% on hires. He brought in Krags who ran the football program into the ground. I'm using maybe and hope because there no guarantees. Any coach we chose to hire was going to have some sort of question mark.
You act like Matta and Miller were failures at their next jobs. Matta had a good run at Ohio st who was a football school. His health had a lot to do with his decline imo. Miller is considered questionable because he hadn't made a final four with the amount of talent that he had but he has done pretty well at Arizona. He had made it to the sweet 16 more than half the time and has several Pac 12 titles. Arizona is the team to beat in that conference. I'm not sure that using Matta or Miller are examples of horror stories on why Xavier coaches aren't good.
One is likely a cheater, and the other one could be. The final chapter ain't written in this book yet. And you'd better hope our guy is clean...
K-rag...that's one guy in 20 years. I like that performance, a lot...
So now you are holding it against Mack that Matta could have been a cheater? At this point then taking any coach who has had any sort of success is a risk, including Donovan and Wright. Considering the FBI investigation could go on for years what are we supposed to do? Where we supposed to not have a coach for 3-5 seasons? Taking a losing coach is the same as sanctions for a program.
Where did I say that? You were defending Matta, and you don't really know Matta. You don't really know Mack either.
Maybe, depends on the coach. When this started, I said a coach like Davenport or a successful NBA coach is safe. Donovan, probably safe, but not as sure a thing. Wright, no idea.
You should have moved very carefully. Not act like you know for sure that a coach is clean or that it doesn't matter. My guess is you'll decide it mattered a lot if Mack is implicated by the FBI. And that will be too late...
You are criticizing Matta for being dirty without any actual evidence that he is dirty. Its even more of a stretch to imply that Mack could be dirty because Matta might be dirty.
Donovan was a college coach not that long ago. Unless CBB corruption started in 2016 why is Donovan safe? He had the highly ranked recruits you don't trust at Florida. Davenport is probably safe but he probably won't win either. I don't doubt his Xs and Os but I think any struggles that Mack may have recruiting would be magnified by bringing in someone with 0 name recognition and no experience recruiting in the D1 talent pool. IMO going .500 or worse for a few seasons might as well be sanctions. Both have the same effect on the program. Its in Mack's contract that if he is implicated in anything he can be fired with cause. If he is implicated in something serious which I find doubtful you fire him and move on.
Can't assume anyone is clean. There's no way to know.
So "being clean" or "not being clean" is really not a talking point.
It's understood we hope anybody that coaches here is clean. We don't know Davenport is clean. We don't know Padgett is clean. We don't know Mack is clean.
We may think we know. But we don't.
So "being clean" or "not being clean" is really not a talking point.
It's understood we hope anybody that coaches here is clean. We don't know Davenport is clean. We don't know Padgett is clean. We don't know Mack is clean.
We may think we know. But we don't.
Mack had uneven years at Xavier, but when he had talent they were pretty good. The last 3 years pretty they were a 2 and 1 seed and the 3rd year they made it to the elite 8. No matter how you cut it those were high level teams. Those were well coached teams. This year was a disappointment for hIm because he had the talent/experience to go deep with that said that happens to every coach.
I really don't question his coaching ability, but I do question whether he can recruit in the ACC. At the end of the day basketball talent is required. There are only handful of coaching that can win consistently with less talent than the other team.
I really don't question his coaching ability, but I do question whether he can recruit in the ACC. At the end of the day basketball talent is required. There are only handful of coaching that can win consistently with less talent than the other team.
Billy D's rosters at FLA consisted of multiple 5 star and high 4 star talent so that wouldn't make him probably safe. That is... if the narrative remains consistent. I thought what's been said here is any coach bringing in the type of talent he brought in would make him a "clean" or "not clean" concern?
We aren't moving the goalposts for a guy we really wanted are we?
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This whole fbi thing won’t come down to who’s been cleannor dirty. It will come down to who was smart and versus who was stupid and careless. Can the shoe/agent money be traced back to your staff or not?
Until then, be competitive and don’t be afraid of the boogeyman
Until then, be competitive and don’t be afraid of the boogeyman
I didn't "want" any particular coach. I wanted better coaches pursued. It's up to the AD to find the best guy for our situation, and I would have respected a decision to not take a chance on any coach until the FBI mess is resolved.
And no moving the goalposts with me... I said Donovan's not for sure safe. That analysis would be come down to a combination of factors incl. how far back in time you go. His last 5-star recruit at Florida was in 2014. He also hasn't recruited since 2015. It's logical to assume that the FBI's investigation will focus on more recent activity and more easily unearth recent evidence.
Also, when I speculate whether a coach is "clean" or not, that's grounded in what will be discovered and acted on...not whether the guy is ethical or honest. The latter is a slippery slope...
Said the fan of a program with 40 five-star recruits shuttle thru his program this decade...
I know when we get our share for the ‘19 class and forward it’s going to come up on this board specifically, “are these guys L1C4?”
No one gives a crap about L1C4 anymore. I changed my name on here because that era is over. If Pitino was still coaching, we’d have 2 OAD’s signed right now for next year and that’s FACT! It was just getting started. Pitino always had a hard time recruiting OAD’s because he hardly played freshman unless they proved themselves. He was about change his philosophy a bit. We would have had both Anfernee Simons AND Romeo Langford for next year. Both are OAD’s. Heck Anfernee is skipping college. He would have never decomitted to skip college unless Pitino was fired, which he was. It was just getting started with this years recruiting class. We also could have potentially had a 3rd OAD in Balsa Koprivica. Idk if he was that good, but was a 5*. I’m telling you, it was about to change. Pitino had already been in with Top 5 Matthew Hurt and Cole Anthony for ‘19 class. He may or may not have gotten both or just one, but it was changing. And that is stone cold fact!
No one gives a crap about L1C4 anymore. I changed my name on here because that era is over. If Pitino was still coaching, we’d have 2 OAD’s signed right now for next year and that’s FACT! It was just getting started. Pitino always had a hard time recruiting OAD’s because he hardly played freshman unless they proved themselves. He was about change his philosophy a bit. We would have had both Anfernee Simons AND Romeo Langford for next year. Both are OAD’s. Heck Anfernee is skipping college. He would have never decomitted to skip college unless Pitino was fired, which he was. It was just getting started with this years recruiting class. We also could have potentially had a 3rd OAD in Balsa Koprivica. Idk if he was that good, but was a 5*. I’m telling you, it was about to change. Pitino had already been in with Top 5 Matthew Hurt and Cole Anthony for ‘19 class. He may or may not have gotten both or just one, but it was changing. And that is stone cold fact!
Sounds like one guy has changed.
Recruiting five-star kids was Pitino's undoing. This ain't a OAD program. There's one just east of here if you need that change.
Pitino always had a hard time because they all went thru boot camp. And entitled kids don't wanna work that hard.
Pitino also lost his way and abandoned what had worked for him. He was likely to fail with 5-star kids anyway but for a different reason...he couldn't coach them...
The Title team had a 2 star, lol, in Russ, then 5 stars Peytion, Chane and Blackshear, 4 stars Georgui, 4 star Luke. His best teams after Cisco all had 5 stars. Clark, Caracter, Padgett.
This argument is mildly useful. But make no mistake, Pitino was at his peak and would have been bringing in serious 5 star talent. Mitchell and Rozier were monstrous feathers in his resume.
Maybe through their own eyes and so called recruiting analysts, but not in CRP’s eyes. These guys needed an extra year to achieve the potential we are seeing now. Boom! (I’m dropping the microphone)
The ability to coach had become very deficient. Too many critical games were lost after the 2013 championship season due to not hitting bunny shots and free throws, as well as generally not closing out close games.
The issue was Rick recruiting 5 stars. It had nothing to do with One and Dones....at least to me. Not sure where that came from. There are what? 24-25 5 stars every year? Not all of them are one and dones, lol. Hell, Blackshear got his degree along with some rings.
