Without even reading all the posts in the thread, "Will UL fans support UK in the NCAA Tournament?" - I thought this thread. was fitting and warranted. I don't hear much support at all from them. Many even throw Pitino under the bus - the same person turned their program around when money was falling out of a FedEx package. Anyone getting any support from the cats?
Will UK fans support UL in the NCAA investigations and self-imposed penalties?
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"The cash sent by Mr. Casey, which was found in an opened air-express package in Los Angeles, touched off the 13-month investigation that resulted in the ruling today and in several earlier resignations. In March, Coach Eddie Sutton and his entire staff resigned, and last November, Cliff Hagan resigned as the Kentucky athletic director."
From New York Times: "Kentucky Basketball Program and 2 Players Heavily Penalized"
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/20/s...-program-and-2-players-heavily-penalized.html
From New York Times: "Kentucky Basketball Program and 2 Players Heavily Penalized"
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/20/s...-program-and-2-players-heavily-penalized.html
"The N.C.A.A. found years ago that Calipari’s star player, Marcus Camby, had accepted large sums of cash and services, not the least the ministrations of a prostitute, from a couple of scalawag agents. The N.C.A.A. fined the university $151,000 and forced the Minutemen to vacate postseason victories and the Final Four appearance. Calipari at the time pronounced himself shocked and horrified — the N.C.A.A. held him guiltless — and immediately signed a $15 million contract to coach the Nets, a vagabond franchise then in New Jersey."
New York Times: "Violations by Calipari's Teams? - Don't Look at Him
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/s...ris-wonderful-life-begin-the-disclaimers.html
New York Times: "Violations by Calipari's Teams? - Don't Look at Him
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/s...ris-wonderful-life-begin-the-disclaimers.html
I'll give you the first one, UK was cheating their asses off, got caught, and Rick Pitino came in and rescued us from the abyss, something all UK fans should be grateful for.
Not really sure what your 2nd post has to do with "our own past," though. I must have missed where Camby had anything to do with Kentucky.
I do think the current situation at U of L is a bit silly. Clearly no advantage was gained, and McGee obviously acted on his own. Suspend CRP a few games, take a scholly away here or there. A postseason ban is as bad as it gets, especially under the circumstances of this team, which had a legit shot in a wide open year to make a deep run.
I think most UK fans remember past violations, but posting something from nearly 30 years ago doesn't really say much. The bottom line is that, even before this recent scandal, both programs have had three major violation cases that resulted in 6 total probation years and 3 tourney ban years for Kentucky, and 7 total probation years and 2 tourney ban years for Louisville (not counting the overturned ban in the late 90s on due process grounds). With the recent violation, Louisville is now up to at least 3 tourney ban years and likely some additional probation years. Kentucky's last case was in 1989, 27 years ago. Since then, Louisville has had three major violations cases.
So while Kentucky fans are familiar with violations decades ago, the perception that UK is a dirty program, especially relative to Louisville and other major programs, is simply false. Louisville will now be at least tied in tourney bans and likely well ahead in probation years, with a far more recent history of problems relative to Kentucky. In fact, even before this scandal, Louisville ranks in the top 15 in terms of probation years as a percentage of total years while Kentucky does not (not even in the top 20). Louisville will likely jump into the top 10 now.
And if you are curious, for major programs, Kansas blows Kentucky and Louisville away in terms of violations and probation years. They are the dirtiest historically by far. Minnesota is the worst, just above Kansas, but I don't consider them a major program.
So while Kentucky fans are familiar with violations decades ago, the perception that UK is a dirty program, especially relative to Louisville and other major programs, is simply false. Louisville will now be at least tied in tourney bans and likely well ahead in probation years, with a far more recent history of problems relative to Kentucky. In fact, even before this scandal, Louisville ranks in the top 15 in terms of probation years as a percentage of total years while Kentucky does not (not even in the top 20). Louisville will likely jump into the top 10 now.
And if you are curious, for major programs, Kansas blows Kentucky and Louisville away in terms of violations and probation years. They are the dirtiest historically by far. Minnesota is the worst, just above Kansas, but I don't consider them a major program.
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Tell me again how many Death Penalties Louisville athletics has received?
This is a valid point, but again, it happened eons ago. U of L fans don't give any credit whatsoever to any titles won by UK in the 40/50s/60s. So if the titles happened so long ago as to be irrelevant, so did the violations. How many people affiliated with the University in the late 40s are still in positions of power at UK? I'm sure someone can look it up, but I'm going to guess none.
Zero, just like Kentucky. If you are referring to the violations 65 years ago, Kentucky did not receive the "death penalty" because it did not exist at that point. But, yes, the NCAA did recommend that teams not schedule Kentucky, which is why it has been considered a "de facto" death penalty. Frankly, 3 total major violation cases do not really concern me as a fan when they occurred 30, 40, and 65 years ago. Most other major programs, including Louisville, have more. A 30-year clean stretch in the modern era is pretty impressive.
Listen, if it was UK in trouble, this board would be reveling in it just as much as a lot of UK board people are in the fact that it's Louisville in trouble. It's what message board posters do. Our board is like, 80% of the 5% of fans that are the crazy, irrational, over exuberant fans. All of us common sense fans are completely in dept to Pitino and what he did for our program in the 90's. I think he is long over due for his name in our rafters. I don't care what he did in the NBA or at Louisville, what he did for UK is worthy. This scandal will tarnish his overall reputation even if he had zero knowledge of it, being the coach, you're responsible for your staff.
I feel bad for Lee and Lewis, they didn't sign up for this. But, it seems that at least the basis of KP's book is true, and for that Louisville must suffer the consequences. I've grown up and continue to be an unapologetic University of Kentucky fan. But I didn't grow up hating Louisville. It's a rivalry and I want UK to win every game against Louisville in every sport. I'd never wish this on a team. Is it entertaining, yes. I admit I do enjoy how crazy it is and that it's happening to a rival. But I'm sure Louisville will continue beyond this and I look forward to the rivalry for years to come.
I feel bad for Lee and Lewis, they didn't sign up for this. But, it seems that at least the basis of KP's book is true, and for that Louisville must suffer the consequences. I've grown up and continue to be an unapologetic University of Kentucky fan. But I didn't grow up hating Louisville. It's a rivalry and I want UK to win every game against Louisville in every sport. I'd never wish this on a team. Is it entertaining, yes. I admit I do enjoy how crazy it is and that it's happening to a rival. But I'm sure Louisville will continue beyond this and I look forward to the rivalry for years to come.
Point taken - I'll leave it to you to decide which is more important to leave behind - NCAA titles when the best players weren't playing and, the NCAA title wasn't the most important one in the land or, when uk got the death penalty.
No hurry - you choose.
I'm on record on this board in saying I don't put much in the titles that happened pre integration. The world was a different place then, let alone college basketball. I was born in 75, so only the 96/98/2012 titles even mean anything to me tangibly. Similar to the point shaving scandal. Predates me by 25 years, so I don't give it much thought.
Good convo though BP - that's what a message board is for right? Debate. I hate what has happened to your team this year. One rogue grad assistant shouldn't be able to derail a potential NCAA run by a team a few years later. I think it's stupid.
Obviously, it's very much in the history of Calipari - who is the current U of K coach. While my original wording could have been better, the current sports culture at U of K is affected by Calipari's history and what he brings to the position.
Why does Pitino have a clause in his contract that if a employee under him cheated he could not lose his job if he so called did not know anything but Cals contract states he will be held liable whether he knew anything or not.
OK, I'll bite. If that is true (not taking the time or energy to prove you right or wrong) then it means 2 things. The first is Pitino is better at negotiating a contract that protects him, and the second is the UofK knew the risk they were taking and decided that in order to keep Calipari in check, they had to hold him responsible for any and everything surrounding his program since he's already used the "I didn't know anything about what was going on" excuse twice in his past that resulted in the programs he coached to go on probation and lose 2 final four appearances. One program, Memphis lost their entire season since the wins that year were vacated along with the final four.
Next question?
So you are going to hold Calipari accountable for Camby taking benefits without his knowledge and Rose being cleared by the NCAA to play, then retroactively being ineligible at the end of the season, but not hold Pitino accountable for what was going on in his program for years. Seems logical to me.
That's right. Calipari has never been held accountable for anything so UofK took the correct measures to protect themselves. Maybe Barnhardt isn't as stupid as he looks. Pitino on the other hand hadn't had any type of history like Calipari has so there was no reason to be too concerned about the clause you pointed to regarding his contract. It is logical. I 100% agree. Now that you've been fed, it's time to go back to what I normally do which is to starve attention trolls like yourself.
Cal wasn't held accountable for anything that happened at UMass or Memphis because he didn't know what Camby or Rose were doing.No way he could have known that Rose brother was on the same plane or staying at the same hotel as the team on about every away game.If you dont believe Cal just ask Rose,catscratch that...Rose refused to talk to NCAA. Now,if Pitino knew or didn't know it doesn't matter,the coach is held accountable if the coach is not World Wide Cal. Seems logical to me too.
This artic
This article should scare the hell out of UofL supporters. You better hope the NCAA has softened their stance since handing down this penalty to UMass.
Kansas huh? Wasn't that where cal got his coaching start? That's right, Larry Brown gave him a job there and that's when he became cal's "mentor" and taught cal the ins and outs of college basketball. As often happens in these types of relationships, try as they might, the protégé never is able to match the mentor. Case in point, Brown has put THREE college programs on NCAA probation, whereas cal has only done it to TWO - though it should be noted, not for lack of trying - lol.
Good point, I can see how the current culture at UK is being affected by the actions of some greedy agents 20 years ago. Can't believe I couldn't put 2 and 2 together there.
Look, college sports is a dirty business. And it trumps academics at most schools that compete for national titles in major sports. Hell, even at U of L, the fanbase takes pride in the fact that Jurich runs the city, and most people on here want Ramsey gone because they think he is undermining the athletic dept - to hell with the needs of the rest of the students on campus. So do I think Calipari is doing everything to the letter of the 3,000 page NCAA rulebook? No. But neither is anyone else. And at least I can admit that.
Why the hell would UofL fans "support" SuCkS?
ITS A RIVALRY. ARCH..........RIVALRY.
Two best things about the NCAA tourney. Watching the Cards ( yeah not this year)
And watching SuCkS underachieve with the number 1 recruiting class.
In the interest of accuracy, only one program coached by Calipari has been put on probation during his tenure, and that was at Memphis (and that was imposed across the entire athletic department because of more serious violations in other sports). UMass did not go on probation because the only issue was Camby receiving impermissible benefits from an agent. The only thing that happened was vacating the games he played in his last year. In fact, UMass has never been on probation.
So Larry Brown has 3, Cal has 1, and Pitino will presumably tie Cal soon. Cal has never had a postseason ban, so Pitino has him there. It remains to be seen about the vacated games/seasons, but for now Cal obviously leads strongly in that category...Pitino needs to step it up.
So Larry Brown has 3, Cal has 1, and Pitino will presumably tie Cal soon. Cal has never had a postseason ban, so Pitino has him there. It remains to be seen about the vacated games/seasons, but for now Cal obviously leads strongly in that category...Pitino needs to step it up.
Youre the second uofk fan ive heard state that about segregated basketball.
Props to you.
They still count though. One of the best moment in Cards history happened in 1959,
with the Cards knocking out the defending champions out of the NCAAT.
Its what started the hate of UofL by uofk fans.
Gotta give credit where credit is due - cal has always been one step ahead of the NCAA in that regard - always off to the next job before the axe falls. It's rather amazing really - the continued dead on timing displayed by someone who's never had any knowledge of said infractions.
cal's just lucky I guess...
To my understanding, the NCAA rules have changed since the incidents with Calipari. Now the NCAA will hold the Coach responsible - even if not at fault. I guess the NCAA feels that it is a deterrent. So to my understanding, by today's NCAA rules, Calipari WOULD have been suspended with what happened at UMASS and Memphis.
The rule changed in Oct 2012. "And the primary message for head coaches is that ignorance will no longer be acceptable as a defense."
Here's the link to 2 articles. Once is from the NCAA and one is from USA Today.
Link: http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/artic...ors-approves-overhauled-enforcement-structure
Link: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...rcement-document-board-of-directors/1659413/#
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This was discussed on the radio the other day. Eric Crawford does a good job explaining this in an article.
Link: http://www.wdrb.com/story/31192335/...-faq-jurich-and-usc-pitino-lee-and-lewis-more
Read under the question: Q: What’s the deal with Pitino, both in this scandal, and for the future?
Crawford does a good job explaining it - and it is a little complex. It has some do to with the difference between being "responsible" as the head coach versus willful misconduct.
Too, Crawford brings out "that from a contract standpoint, Pitino is not responsible for third party actions — unless he failed to exercise “diligent, careful supervision."
Please read the explanation.
Not exactly accurate. Only the 4 tourney wins were vacated by UMass, not the whole season.
It was accurate, just not precise. I said all that happened was vacating the games in his last year. I didn't say all games or the whole season.
Except that didn't happen. Some Louisville fans just started saying it to and others ran with it. The video of the interview is readily available. All he said at the start of the interview was "We are back. Kentucky Sports Radio. Happy to be joined by Katina Powell...." When the interview ended, he merely said "thank you." He also asked several difficult questions during the interview and was forced to just move on several times because there was really nothing she could say.
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I give you that. What confuses me is people want to bring up things that happened 25+ years ago and even longer but want to ignore the
early championships. IF we want to go back and look at a team we need to acknowledge all events. Not just cherry pick them for our petty
arguments. Both schools have been caught bending the rules. Denny even used the excuse one time (Morton) that the rule book had so many
rules that he couldn't be expected to know them all.
If you believe this, it is willful ignorance or naivite. I t can happen to many people once. If it happens a second time, then those who think rationally will start to question what really happened.
This has been debunked so many times.....smh. I need to store the info in a word doc so I can quickly cut and paste the many reasons the bolded statement is false.
I get the spirit of what you are saying, but it doesn't make sense in this specific instance. According to that reasoning, if the Camby incident never happened, then no one would have questioned Cal's involvement in a high school kid allegedly cheating on his SAT, right? OK, so that means, according to your argument, the fact that 12 years earlier (over the span of 30+ years coaching) a star player took money from an agent during his final year in college when even the NCAA declared the coach to be "an innocent victim," that means the same coach is likely culpable 12 years later. That just doesn't make sense. Again, I completely understand he spirit of your argument, but you have to look at the specific instances to see if it really makes sense when applied to a particular individual.
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