Mick Cronin on Grad Transfers

[Sultan__of__Swine]

Cincinnati is also one of the few schools that has not taken a fifth-year grad transfer since Cronin's been there. His philosophy on the trend runs counter to most.

"I really hope I never have to, because that means you're really desperate at a position," Cronin said. "And if you do walk down that alley, you bring that fifth-year guy in, he plays and your freshman that you told you loved him, comes in -- he signed early. The other guy, you signed him in May. Now you play the fifth-year guy, the freshman gets pissed off. The fifth-year guy graduates, the freshman transfers. And I'm just going to tell you, it's happened to a lot of guys, and it's a vicious cycle."

 

[ShortCreek]

Mick Cronin Translated: “Chris Mack is taking grad transfers and I hate that Xavier lovin’ SOB. If I wasn’t 5’1” I’d kick his ass and take his wife! I’ll take me a grad transfer when I get a chance, but I can’t find one that will come play in our gawd forsaken conference and play SMU, UCF and all the other powers on our schedule! Go Cats!”

 

[nccardfan]

I understand that Mick coaches for an arch rival and hence the hate, but Mick, who is 47 has an overall record of 361-168. Chris, who is 2 years older, 49 has a career overall record of 232-103. The winning percentages are close so to me they’re basically on the same level.

 

[KozmasAgain]

Mick needs to every tool in the tool chest if he doesn't he is hurting his program.

 

[ShortCreek]

I understand that Mick coaches for an arch rival and hence the hate, but Mick, who is 47 has an overall record of 361-168. Chris, who is 2 years older, 49 has a career overall record of 232-103. The winning percentages are close so to me they’re basically on the same level.

Mick is at a school that has won two national titles - it is a better program than Xavier. Therefore, Mack was at a disadvantage. Comparing apples & oranges?

 

[BooneCo_Card]

Mick is at a school that has won two national titles - it is a better program than Xavier. Therefore, Mack was at a disadvantage. Comparing apples & oranges?

Better program? LMAO UC had all the advantages with conference affiliation et al, but Xavier has had the better program for most of the time since the mid '80's, aside from the Huggins years. Check out the head to heads and post season results.

Mick and the whole UC crowd (what there is of it) has a severe case of the goo-goo over 1) us getting into the ACC, not them, 2) Xavier getting into the New BE and 3) them being in the American Conference, a step below the Big East.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Any FR or Soph that can't handle competition for playing time probably would be a bigger problem than actually bringing in the competetion for the playing time.

Hi Shaq Aaron! Bye Shaq Aaron!

 

[GOCARDS6]

If LeBron was a grad transferring mick would take him in a heart beat, sounds like sour grapes

 

[nccardfan]

Mick Cronin Translated: “Chris Mack is taking grad transfers and I hate that Xavier lovin’ SOB. If I wasn’t 5’1” I’d kick his ass and take his wife! I’ll take me a grad transfer when I get a chance, but I can’t find one that will come play in our gawd forsaken conference and play SMU, UCF and all the other powers on our schedule! Go Cats!”

Also the AAC is a stronger conference than the Big East this year with Houston, UC, UCF and possibly Temple. Villanova has struggled and Marquette is trending down. Xavier is probably looking at NIT.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Yeah, the guy has had some success, like 8 NCAA bids in a row. Then again, he's been there over 10 years and he's only been to the Sweet 16 twice, and never beyond it. So maybe he could re-evaluate what he's doing and try to adjust to get to the next level, instead of worrying about promises he's making to incoming FR?

 

[nccardfan]

Yeah, the guy has had some success, like 8 NCAA bids in a row. Then again, he's been there over 10 years and he's only been to the Sweet 16 twice, and never beyond it. So maybe he could re-evaluate what he's doing and try to adjust to get to the next level, instead of worrying about promises he's making to incoming FR?

Question? How long was Jay Wright at Villanova before winning 2 NCs?

 

[ShortCreek]

Question? How long was Jay Wright at Villanova before winning 2 NCs?

Wright was at Nova for 14 years before he got his first of two rings.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Question? How long was Jay Wright at Villanova before winning 2 NCs?

Jay Wright made the E8 his 5th yr and the Final Four his 8th. Cronin hasn't made it beyond the Sweet 16 in 13 yrs. That's a definition of mediocrity really. Jay went further in yr 5 than Mick ever has in 13. But good argument as always.

 

[KozmasAgain]

I haven't watched Cincinnati play since we played them in the AAC so I couldn't tell anybody if they are any good. I know I don't hear very much about them on a national level.

 

[nccardfan]

Jay Wright made the E8 his 5th yr and the Final Four his 8th. Cronin hasn't made it beyond the Sweet 16 in 13 yrs. That's a definition of mediocrity really. Jay went further in yr 5 than Mick ever has in 13. But good argument as always.

Yeah I wish I could make 2 million a year for being mediocre. Huggy hasn’t won a N.C.? Is he mediocre? Use your words more appropriately.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Yeah I wish I could make 2 million a year for being mediocre. Huggy hasn’t won a N.C.? Is he mediocre? Use your words more appropriately.

Huggy has made the FF at two different places fool. Cronin hasnt made it to an E8 anywhere in 13 yrs... why the comparison? Quit vomiting on yourself in public. It's gross.

Cronin has a mediocre resume. Sorry Mrs. Cronin.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

The guy is 6-10 in the post season with 0 Elite 8s. That is literally the definition of mediocre at this level. But the bar for other coaches in this conversation is titles. Hilarious.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I haven't watched Cincinnati play since we played them in the AAC so I couldn't tell anybody if they are any good. I know I don't hear very much about them on a national level.

They have one player who plays like a boss, Cumberland. Solid defense and average... at best...offense. About what they usually have. Their OOC schedule was trash.

 

[shadow force]

The grad transfer route has been pretty useful and worked out pretty well for many teams, including the Cards, for the last several seasons.

CC has his limitations but I hate to think where this team would be without him. If a coach's team has the need to fill a position for one season then why not use it if it is available. Many of these grad transfers bring valuable experience and leadership and many are high character guys.

 

[nccardfan]

The grad transfer route has been pretty useful and worked out pretty well for many teams, including the Cards, for the last several seasons.

CC has his limitations but I hate to think where this team would be without him. If a coach's team has the need to fill a position for one season then why not use it if it is available. Many of these grad transfers bring valuable experience and leadership and many are high character guys.

I agree but let’s assume this hypothetical. We go out and get a Grad transfer PG. I know some of the fans don’t care except winning so you’re telling Perry we are given up on you and you don’t get any more chances. Secondly, although I think Johnson is a 2 guard, getting a grad transfer has to affect his playing time and Nickleberry’s. It just sets the stage for discord on a team. That’s what Mick is referring to.

 

[CardX]

Cincinnati is also one of the few schools that has not taken a fifth-year grad transfer since Cronin's been there. His philosophy on the trend runs counter to most.

"I really hope I never have to, because that means you're really desperate at a position," Cronin said. "And if you do walk down that alley, you bring that fifth-year guy in, he plays and your freshman that you told you loved him, comes in -- he signed early. The other guy, you signed him in May. Now you play the fifth-year guy, the freshman gets pissed off. The fifth-year guy graduates, the freshman transfers. And I'm just going to tell you, it's happened to a lot of guys, and it's a vicious cycle."

Sounds like he doesn't have confidence in himself to adequately manage a roster.

 

[nccardfan]

Sounds like he doesn't have confidence in himself to adequately manage a roster.

Or maybe he doesn’t want a bunch of head cases like VJ..

 

[KozmasAgain]

If you recruit a guy to play college ball you expect him to produce if he doesn't you find someone that will. Every recruit should understand that and know that is always someone out there ready to beat you out.

 

[CardX]

Or maybe he doesn’t want a bunch of head cases like VJ..

VJ isn't a grad transfer, though.

 

[CardX]

I agree but let’s assume this hypothetical. We go out and get a Grad transfer PG. I know some of the fans don’t care except winning so you’re telling Perry we are given up on you and you don’t get any more chances. Secondly, although I think Johnson is a 2 guard, getting a grad transfer has to affect his playing time and Nickleberry’s. It just sets the stage for discord on a team. That’s what Mick is referring to.

I think Perry is smart enough to know that depth is pretty important.

 

[nccardfan]

VJ isn't a grad transfer, though.

No, but everyone seems to want him to become one or at least transfer. Why because he’s not the talent we thought he was? As far as I know he’s done everything staff has asked him to do; I.e. he got stronger. Bottom line he’s done nothing to lose his scholarship but some fans want him to give it up to a “better” player. He’s just on the other side of it.

 

[shadow force]

I agree but let’s assume this hypothetical. We go out and get a Grad transfer PG. I know some of the fans don’t care except winning so you’re telling Perry we are given up on you and you don’t get any more chances. Secondly, although I think Johnson is a 2 guard, getting a grad transfer has to affect his playing time and Nickleberry’s. It just sets the stage for discord on a team. That’s what Mick is referring to.

I understand what you are saying. I was more referring to using grad transfers when there is a big need like there was this season at UofL.

I hope Mack's recruiting gets to where he doesn't need to go the grad transfer route all that often. I'm just saying there is some merit to going that route occasionally when needed rather than never ever using it like Cronin is saying.

 

[chevelle99]

Quick question. Will the value and importance of grad transfers increase when the top high school players can go straight to the NBA without a freshmen season in college?

 

[nccardfan]

Quick question. Will the value and importance of grad transfers increase when the top high school players can go straight to the NBA without a freshmen season in college?

Believe me a lot of teams will go this route including big blew.

 

[gocards1987]

Quick question. Will the value and importance of grad transfers increase when the top high school players can go straight to the NBA without a freshmen season in college?

It shouldn't honestly cause it would mean that you'd get more multi year players. I feel like some are taking this really personally like Cronin was taking a shot at Louisville. Cronin is right that if you are taking grad transfers you have a whole in your roster more than likely. Cronin hasn't taken many guys that leave early and has not had a ton of turnover so he should not need grad transfers. That works for him but does not really mean that it needs to work for everybody.

He is also right about the freshman thing. If you have a stacked roster and are bringing in 1 year guys you are probably taking time from someone who thought they were playing it will lead to some transfers. Cronin was making a very extreme case though.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

It's not personal but they guy has racked up another participation trophy. He probably needs to evaluate what he's doing and make some changes in philosophy if he wants to break through. He's coaching ugly basketball and he could probably stand to bring in a grad transfer now and then that knows how to play. His teams do the same thing most years, play real good defense and run subpar offense. His post season resume is not even average, I was being generous earlier in the thread.

 

[nccardfan]

It's not personal but they guy has racked up another participation trophy. He probably needs to evaluate what he's doing and make some changes in philosophy if he wants to break through. He's coaching ugly basketball and he could probably stand to bring in a grad transfer now and then that knows how to play. His teams do the same thing most years, play real good defense and run subpar offense. His post season resume is not even average, I was being generous earlier in the thread.

All you have to do is look at guys like Jay Wright, Leonard Hamilton, Tony Bennett, Mark Few, John Beilein, probably several others. It is hard to win a NC. I know Jay has 2 now but it took him a while.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

All you have to do is look at guys like Jay Wright, Leonard Hamilton, Tony Bennett, Mark Few, John Beilein, probably several others. It is hard to win a NC. I know Jay has 2 now but it took him a while.

I'm not talking about winning a championship. I'm talking about showing a pulse in the post season - the guy has 6 NCAA wins in 13 years at Cincy, making it to the Sweet 16 one time, and losing by double digits when he got there. One Sweet 16 in thirteen years is just not good.

Nobody is defining success only by counting titles.

I mean, I do get your point.

I'll just ask you this. If he were the HC here, and had the same exact 6-11 record in NCAAs with one S16 in thirteen years, would you want him to remain the coach here?

 

[nccardfan]

I'm not talking about winning a championship. I'm talking about showing a pulse in the post season - the guy has 6 NCAA wins in 13 years at Cincy, making it to the Sweet 16 one time, and losing by double digits when he got there. One Sweet 16 in thirteen years is just not good.

Nobody is defining success only by counting titles.

I mean, I do get your point.

I'll just ask you this. If he were the HC here, and had the same exact 6-11 record in NCAAs with one S16 in thirteen years, would you want him to remain the coach here?

Let me answer that by asking if we have 3 consecutive years of not going going past 1st round or getting in, you want to Farrr Mack?

 

[KozmasAgain]

Your question is a "What if" so I guess we will have to wait and see. Under your argument if Mack makes it to the round of 16 or better next year that really makes Cronin and your argument look really bad.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Let me answer that by asking if we have 3 consecutive years of not going going past 1st round or getting in, you want to Farrr Mack?

I am asking you about the real, already happened 13 year sample on the coach the thread is about, not fantasy land what if questions about a make believe 3 year sample for another coach in which the thread is not about.

You can't directly answer the question about Cronin because you cannot justify one Sweet 16 in 13 years as being good. My point is relevant because it's obvious Cronin's philosophy has holes in it.

Just be honest it's okay. You had no idea Cronin's post season resume was that bad. It's no big deal.

Is one Sweet 16 in 13 years good?

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Your question is a "What if" so I guess we will have to wait and see. Under your argument if Mack makes it to the round of 16 or better next year that really makes Cronin and your argument look really bad.

He had no idea the guy's resume in the post season was so bad, and that's why he couldn't directly answer my question. He's cornered in the conversation and going off topic. He's also trying to rewrite history and equate Cronin's current resume to Jay Wright's prior to his multi titles. Jay Wright went further in 5 years prior to his titles than Cronin ever has in 13. He also moved goalposts and tried to equate post season success to titles only, when that's never the point anyone has tried to make. That way he can ask the goofy question about if Mark Few is a good coach or not.

It's just one bad argument for him after another.

He's never going to back off in these "debates" because it's personal for him.

 

[nccardfan]

Your question is a "What if" so I guess we will have to wait and see. Under your argument if Mack makes it to the round of 16 or better next year that really makes Cronin and your argument look really bad.

Maybe not if under your scenario Cronin happens to go further. I’m not saying like some of you think is a no doubter. They are similar right now. Cronin is younger and has a lot more wins and Mack has had more success in the dance but he hasn’t won anything yet. He also lost as a top seed.

 

[BooneCo_Card]

Maybe not if under your scenario Cronin happens to go further. I’m not saying like some of you think is a no doubter. They are similar right now. Cronin is younger and has a lot more wins and Mack has had more success in the dance but he hasn’t won anything yet. He also lost as a top seed.

CCM was 6-3 vs. Mick in the Crosstown Shootout. Chris never had to be restrained from going after an opposing player as did Mick when he went after JP Macura a couple of years ago.

Please, do not let these facts get in the way the way of your argument.

 

[gocards1987]

Maybe not if under your scenario Cronin happens to go further. I’m not saying like some of you think is a no doubter. They are similar right now. Cronin is younger and has a lot more wins and Mack has had more success in the dance but he hasn’t won anything yet. He also lost as a top seed.

Mack has managed to make 3 sweet 16s and an elite 8 at Xavier, there is little reason to think he couldn't do it here with what should be better athletes. You'd do better to argue that he'd struggle in the regular season with the tough schedule but Xavier has managed to do well in the tournament with not great seeds.

In an argument about postseason success, which is what Cronin was being criticized about, there really isn't a contest between the 2. Cronin has 1 sweet 16 and Mack has 3 plus an elite 8.

Mack also has Cronin beat head to head and while he has lost in the 2nd round with a high seed, so has Cronin. There is not all that much of a difference between a 1 and 2 seed as far a competition goes.