Guess Rick Bozich knows more than Tom Jurich

[zipp]

You may feel 100% certain in your opinion, but that means very little because you have no clue what Pitino actually knows. And to say that you are 99% sure he shouldn't have known is even more of a stretch, and I know you realize that. Honest question, if this identical situation was happening to UK and Cal, would you feel 99% certain that Cal shouldn't have known?

Other U of L basketball players in the same dorm for years didn't know anything was going on. They were in a helluva lot better position to know than Pitino was.

And watching Pitino Lite in action, it's hard to tell what he knows.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[zipp]

Zipp, I believe all of us in a position to have done the hiring, have made some bad calls. In today's world it's not hard to do.

No question. As managers with any tenure, we have all made bad hire decisions. But that was the mistake he made, not in trusting McGee...

 

[Shawn (uk7spd)]

Other U of L basketball players in the same dorm for years didn't know anything was going on. They were in a helluva lot better position to know than Pitino was.

And watching Pitino Lite in action, it's hard to tell what he knows.

"Elite program", my a$$...

Yet there were a lot of players/recruits (and at least one coach and it is looking like perhaps more) that did know. And while I am not saying they shouldn't be believed outright, the players denying any knowledge have a strong motive to do so (and, yes, Katina has a strong motive to lie as well, but she has been corroborated).

And you didn't answer my question.

 

[zipp]

Yet there were a lot of players/recruits (and at least one coach and it is looking like perhaps more) that did know. And while I am not saying they shouldn't be believed outright, the players denying any knowledge have a strong motive to do so (and, yes, Katina has a strong motive to lie as well, but she has been corroborated).

And you didn't answer my question.

Personal testimony is most of what we have. If you wanna start questioning what people are saying, you're gonna have trouble with a lying ho on your side of the argument. Is that where you wanna go?

I thought I did answer about Pitino Lite. I don't think he knows much of anything that's basketball related including what goes on in a players' dorm.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[DirtyBird]

I don't know if Rick knew or if Rick didn't know, and it doesn't really matter in my mind. Rick Pitino is paid about $5 million a year to do two things: 1) keep the program out of NCAA trouble and 2) win basketball games. Based on the information that has come out so far, he has failed to meet requirement #1. This is about institutional control.

Putting this issue behind us will mean cleaning house in Men's basketball, starting with the head coach.

 

[zipp]

...This is about institutional control...

That's a beautiful concept esp. if you represent the NCAA. Unfortunately, it has little to do with reality which is where most of us live.

The first step in "control" is knowing what you want to control. If the NCAA MOP (Hancock) can live down the hall three years from where this stuff went on and not know it, you tell me who outside of the players' dorm should know? Is Pitino supposed to have a crystal ball or be a mind reader? You expect Pitino himself to move in?

He's responsible because the NCAA says he's responsible. No other reason that's rational...

 

[Shawn (uk7spd)]

That's a beautiful concept esp. if you represent the NCAA. Unfortunately, it has little to do with reality which is where most of us live.

The first step in "control" is knowing what you want to control. If the NCAA MOP (Hancock) can live down the hall three years from where this stuff went on and not know it, you tell me who outside of the players' dorm should know? Is Pitino supposed to have a crystal ball or be a mind reader? You expect Pitino himself to move in?

He's responsible because the NCAA says he's responsible. No other reason that's rational...

That all rests on one big assumption...that Hancock (and others) are telling the truth. They have every reason to lie. I am not saying they are, but when other players are corroborating, it starts to make you question the few players that have outright denied that anything went on, especially when they have a substantial motive to withhold the truth.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

That all rests on one big assumption...that Hancock (and others) are telling the truth. They have every reason to lie. I am not saying they are, but when other players are corroborating, it starts to make you question the few players that have outright denied that anything went on, especially when they have a substantial motive to withhold the truth.

Powell has a reason to lie (s) ($)

Players that left the program unhappy have motives (revenge, concerns over own future eligibility)

Recruits that went elsewhere have motives (concerns over own future eligibility)

You are open to questioning motives of some people, but not others. Solid.

 

[Shawn (uk7spd)]

Powell has a reason to lie (s) ($)

Players that left the program unhappy have motives (revenge, concerns over own future eligibility)

Recruits that went elsewhere have motives (concerns over own future eligibility)

You are open to questioning motives of some people, but not others. Solid.

Not true at all. I've acknowledged numerous times that Powell could be lying, at least to some extent (I add that caveat now that it appears certain that a decent amount of what she has alleged has been corroborated). Are you open to questioning the motives of the players that are denying anything happened? Guys like Hancock have a huge incentive to protect Rick and the program. Let me be clear, I am not saying he is lying, because it is entirely possible that he saw nothing or at least didn't see enough to make him a witness to the allegations. I am just saying, as you acknowledged, that you can't simply take everything at face value.

As for recruits/players with eligibility concerns, that is not a motive to lie. That is simply a motive to talk. They could just as easily said nothing happened.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Everyone involved has motives.

In your response to me you had no rebuttal for players that left having revenge as motivation.


I made 3 points about certain people involved and their motivations. Hers, transfers with revenge factor, and recruits who may have felt cornered. My points are all legit. You've agreed on one of my points, failed to respond to one of my points, and argued my 3rd point - I'm giving you a counter point below on my 3rd point.

The recruits that talked to the NCAA could have felt pressured in the same way that suspects feel pressure when interrogated by police. They are in their teens and nervous, they are being questioned by a higher power of authority, it's not as easy to "just not say anything" under those potential circumstances. They are concerned about their own futures, especially if they did participate in activity that might or might not be a big deal. We don't even know what the recruits actually said to the NCAA anyway. All we have is hearsay from a source, we don't have a hard copy transcript or audio - and we weren't in the room.

I am not really open to questioning what former players have gone on record as saying what they knew, to now respond to your point there. The reason is, they went on record publicly, and though they could recant, they could also get a subpoena where they would need to confirm what they've already said. I will question them if/when their stories change.

 

[DirtyBird]

That's a beautiful concept esp. if you represent the NCAA. Unfortunately, it has little to do with reality which is where most of us live.

The first step in "control" is knowing what you want to control. If the NCAA MOP (Hancock) can live down the hall three years from where this stuff went on and not know it, you tell me who outside of the players' dorm should know? Is Pitino supposed to have a crystal ball or be a mind reader? You expect Pitino himself to move in?

He's responsible because the NCAA says he's responsible. No other reason that's rational...

That's a beautiful concept esp. if you represent the NCAA. Unfortunately, it has little to do with reality which is where most of us live.

The first step in "control" is knowing what you want to control. If the NCAA MOP (Hancock) can live down the hall three years from where this stuff went on and not know it, you tell me who outside of the players' dorm should know? Is Pitino supposed to have a crystal ball or be a mind reader? You expect Pitino himself to move in?

He's responsible because the NCAA says he's responsible. No other reason that's rational...

Accountability. It's a very simple concept: those in charge are accountable. The CEO of Volkswagen was forced out last month because a small number of engineers (undoubtedly working many, many layers below the CEO) were secretly and deliberately designing their products to cheat during emissions tests. The head of the Veterans Affairs Administration was forced to resign in 2014 because people who worked in the organization manipulated reports about the quality of care they were giving their patients.

Coach Pitino is paid very well and should be accountable for the conduct of his staff. In the business world, when the actions of a few individuals can place the company at risk, responsible managers put controls in place. Critical processes are overseen by more than one person to make sure rules are followed. Those involved are given training so that they know the rules. In this case, this should include the players as well as those who interact with recruits. Compliance is verified with audits.

I would have a different view of this if it happened one or two times and only a small number of people were involved. But this evidently happened many times over many years and involved many people who should have known the rules. This would have been discovered if someone was paying attention or if compliance controls were in place...

 

[Cue Card]

Accountability. It's a very simple concept: those in charge are accountable. The CEO of Volkswagen was forced out last month because a small number of engineers (undoubtedly working many, many layers below the CEO) were secretly and deliberately designing their products to cheat during emissions tests. The head of the Veterans Affairs Administration was forced to resign in 2014 because people who worked in the organization manipulated reports about the quality of care they were giving their patients.

Coach Pitino is paid very well and should be accountable for the conduct of his staff. In the business world, when the actions of a few individuals can place the company at risk, responsible managers put controls in place. Critical processes are overseen by more than one person to make sure rules are followed. Those involved are given training so that they know the rules. In this case, this should include the players as well as those who interact with recruits. Compliance is verified with audits.

I would have a different view of this if it happened one or two times and only a small number of people were involved. But this evidently happened many times over many years and involved many people who should have known the rules. This would have been discovered if someone was paying attention or if compliance controls were in place...

You're basing that opinion on the words written down by a person who freely admits she's in it for the money. The same person who had the nerve to say she went to the NCAA first but was turned away, and that the reason she did that is because she didn't feel it was the right environment for the recruits to be in. Seriously, she SAID that. Now you want to believe her time line too. Perfect.

So on one hand she is in it for the money, but on the other hand we are supposed to believe she is a prostitute with high morals and felt it was unethical for her to provide HER services to recruits and ball players, and since the NCAA didn't want to listen to her, this was her only course of action.

Not buying it all. Right now, the 2 I most blame are Katina Powell (the actual criminal) and Andre McGee for being involved with her. Nobody else. Now as more facts come out, I reserve the right to make additions to the blame list. Not before.

 

[zipp]

Here are the team rosters...

Hancock, Van Treese, Tim Henderson (AKA "Wichita"), and Elijah Justice
VS.
The Ho, Zach Price, T-Will, Chane Behanan, etc.

Now, which fanbase supports which team in a truth contest?

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Louisvillian]

Here are the team rosters...

Hancock, Van Treese, Tim Henderson (AKA "Wichita"), and Elijah Justice
VS.
The Ho, Zach Price, T-Will, Chane Behanan, etc.

Now, which fanbase supports which team in a truth contest?

"Elite program", my a$$...

and with the top team backed by Tom Jurich

Bottom team endorsed by Ratman Bozich

 

[cards217]

Accountability. It's a very simple concept: those in charge are accountable. The CEO of Volkswagen was forced out last month because a small number of engineers (undoubtedly working many, many layers below the CEO) were secretly and deliberately designing their products to cheat during emissions tests. The head of the Veterans Affairs Administration was forced to resign in 2014 because people who worked in the organization manipulated reports about the quality of care they were giving their patients.

Coach Pitino is paid very well and should be accountable for the conduct of his staff. In the business world, when the actions of a few individuals can place the company at risk, responsible managers put controls in place. Critical processes are overseen by more than one person to make sure rules are followed. Those involved are given training so that they know the rules. In this case, this should include the players as well as those who interact with recruits. Compliance is verified with audits.

I would have a different view of this if it happened one or two times and only a small number of people were involved. But this evidently happened many times over many years and involved many people who should have known the rules. This would have been discovered if someone was paying attention or if compliance controls were in place...

In a perfect world, of course people that know the rules would always follow them, but that's just not the case. Not everyone follows the rules or tries to stop people from breaking the rules. People that knowingly do wrong things typically hide them because they know it's wrong and that there could be serious consequences for doing these actions. Multiple other coaches have came out and said that they don't know everything that goes on inside their own program and that knowing everything is an impossible standard.

Jay Bilas brought this up the other day - going forward, how do head coaches go about knowing absolutely everything that goes on inside their own programs? Do they hire investigators to stalk your own employees/players to make sure they aren't breaking any rules? Does Rick need to live in the players dorm right down the hall?

 

[zipp]

Accountability... Coach Pitino is paid very well and should be accountable for the conduct of his staff...

You're not defeating my argument, you're just expressing yours again. "Accountability" is like "institutional control". Saying they exist don't make it so. You can make me accountable for sunshine tomorrow, but that doesn't mean I'm making it happen. If players who lived right in the middle of this didn't know about it, how am I holding anyone who didn't responsible? I don't care how the NCAA--or LPT fans for that matter--view the situation.

...I would have a different view of this if it happened one or two times and only a small number of people were involved. But this evidently happened many times over many years and involved many people who should have known the rules. This would have been discovered if someone was paying attention or if compliance controls were in place...

As Cue said, you really don't know what happened. She says it happened 20+ times, it could have been half that many. And if four years is the timeframe, 20 times would be 5 per year or once every other month. Can I envision something that infrequently happening with no one knowing who wasn't supposed to know? Sure.

I've said it several times already... I'll take the word of guys like Hancock any day over the ho's. And I'm really, really good with LPT fans defending her.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Cue Card]

It really doesn't seem to matter now. The ESPN outside the lines show has captured the narrative they were looking for and they're pushing it much like they pushed the Duke lacrosse team narrative. That scandal turned out to be bogus (and this scandal still could), yet people's lives were ruined over it.

Young men were convicted of a crime they never committed in the eyes of social media. The best thing for everyone to do is wait until ALL the investigations are over with THEN form a final opinion. My hope is no innocent lives are destroyed over this like they were in the Duke Lacrosse scandal. Just wait for the investigation to be over before deciding what's true and what's not.

 

[shadow force]

It really doesn't seem to matter now. The ESPN outside the lines show has captured the narrative they were looking for and they're pushing it much like they pushed the Duke lacrosse team narrative. That scandal turned out to be bogus (and this scandal still could), yet people's lives were ruined over it.

Young men were convicted of a crime they never committed in the eyes of social media. The best thing for everyone to do is wait until ALL the investigations are over with THEN form a final opinion. My hope is no innocent lives are destroyed over this like they were in the Duke Lacrosse scandal. Just wait for the investigation to be over before deciding what's true and what's not.

Exactly. That has been my take in this whole situation. Wait until the investigation is over to see exactly what is true and what is not and then go from there.

 

[beasleythecard]

Rick Bozo should have his credential pulled and never be able to attend another Louisville event or have access to its players.

His off based journalism ran the cj into the ground and it is now doing the same to fox41.

His opinions shoukd not stroke Louisville, but it should not be to the other extreme either.

He is to cover stories, not try to become one.

Cut him off please

 

[Cue Card]

Rick Bozo should have his credential pulled and never be able to attend another Louisville event or have access to its players.

His off based journalism ran the cj into the ground and it is now doing the same to fox41.

His opinions shoukd not stroke Louisville, but it should not be to the other extreme either.

He is to cover stories, not try to become one.

Cut him off please

I 100% agree. He is no friend of UofL's and he has drawn that line in the sand with his slanted negative view and abuse of his power of the pen. He needs to be held accountable for his actions just like anyone who took part in this scandal IF there was actually a sex ring of prostitutes for the players, recruits, and family members like Katina Powell claims. I do not dispute she was involved with McGee. That much has been proven. The rest will eventually come out.

Bozich has been very unprofessional with his rush to judgement while trying to act like the executioner at the same time. Screw him and if he's ever let back in to ANY press conference involving UofL, then whoever lets him in should be fired immediately. Bozich is a total asshat.

 

[OneEarWonder]

I am 100% sure that Pitino didn't know, and I'm 99% sure that he shouldn't have known. Doesn't matter what anyone writes who counts page views for his paycheck...

Just so I'm not accused of pumping sunshine up Pitino's a$$, I'm 98% sure that Andre McGee was a bad hire. And the big guy made that hire...

I agree on your numbers here, I don't see any reason why Pitino knew or should have known. However, as head coach, he is still responsible. If the NCAA deems rules were broken, RP will have a price to pay.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

It is a given Pitino will be suspended a minimum of 10 games, I could see 15. It's unclear when the sanctions get handed out. I'd say the 10-15 game suspension would be best case scenario and I'd hope he'd choose to have it start at the beginning of the season, or next. This is of course, with the assumption that nothing nuclear is found within the investigations.

 

[TankedCat]

I think its easy to believe that Rick knew nothing about this

and I think its also easy to believe that is from design. You don't get to where Rick is today by putting yourself in a position where you are aware of potentially damaging details that will result in you taking direct blame. No head coach is going to send money, no head coach is going to fix grades, no head coach is going to cover up a rape accusation -so Bozich's speculation may be based on "what would the manager of a small business know" mentality more than a professional coach of an NCAA DI major program.

From an NCAA standpoint, they won't care - tacit approval - either by inaction, negligence or wink, wink go ahead, but I don't want to hear about it is what they will try to sink their teeth into

The pivotal issue to this is - was McGee going rogue to the point he felt in order to succeed at recruiting kids to UL he needed to go off the reservation and hire a go between for prostitutes, spending his own salary in the process and thinking that Minardi Hall was a safe location to do this?

Does that narrative add up to the objective viewer? Based on what Bozich wrote, in his opinion it does not pass the smell test.

 

[zipp]

...Does that narrative add up to the objective viewer? Based on what Bozich wrote, in his opinion it does not pass the smell test.

You're not educating anyone here, we all know the way the NCAA views a situation like this and who's responsible. Sure that matters, but it doesn't matter much to how you deal with Pitino and his staff internally. That's where you use logic and rationality.

Many of what we will accept as "facts" do not indicate that Pitino knew anything. Players who lived in the same dorm for years have openly testified that they knew or heard nothing. No way in hell Pitino would pay for that line-up of ho's to woo recruits. If anything, it was probably losing recruits. And he wouldn't have put an idiot like McGee in charge of a prostitution ring. Now Pitino's calling McGee out to tell the truth.

You may not like or trust Pitino, be he's not stupid. Whether McGee had help or not will be determined. But I'm 100% sure that Pitino didn't have anything to do with it.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[TankedCat]

You're not educating anyone here, we all know the way the NCAA views a situation like this and who's responsible. Sure that matters, but it doesn't matter much to how you deal with Pitino and his staff internally. That's where you use logic and rationality.

Many of what we will accept as "facts" do not indicate that Pitino knew anything. Players who lived in the same dorm for years have openly testified that they knew or heard nothing. No way in hell Pitino would pay for that line-up of ho's to woo recruits. If anything, it was probably losing recruits. And he wouldn't have put an idiot like McGee in charge of a prostitution ring. Now Pitino's calling McGee out to tell the truth.

You may not like or trust Pitino, be he's not stupid. Whether McGee had help or not will be determined. But I'm 100% sure that Pitino didn't have anything to do with it.

"Elite program", my a$$...

I think my point to begin with is Pitino isn't stupid. I'm also 100% positive Pitino didn't have anything to do with it.

I'm pointing out that Bozich is looking at the situation objectively and saying that a person involved in the day to day operations of his business *would* have known. But I don't think that same standard applies to coaches of major D1 programs. There is a certain level of insulation and plausible deniability that goes with the position - from Calipari, to Roy Williams, to Larry Brown to Bill Self, and yes, Rick Pitino.

now if your argument is that Rick is the bastion of morality and ethics, and would not put himself in a position of plausible deniability as a head coach of a program - as many coaches with similar positions have done in an effort to avoid direct responsibility when something breaks loose - with boosters, alumni and rogue assistant coaches, well I don't know what to tell you.

heck , just look at his contract

the document specifically describes an “understanding” that Pitino “shall not be responsible for misconduct of third parties, assistants, or other representatives of the athletic interest” of the university,” unless Pitino “was aware of such misconduct and failed to promptly report it” or “failed to exercise diligent, careful supervision” of his staff.

his not knowing is by design, not circumstance