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Curious about your thoughts on Williamson

I

Ipartiedwithhopgood

Five-Star Poster
Jan 20, 2011
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Concern? Standard Growing Pains? Disappointed?

Wish I posted this at the beginning of the season, but since the Cards have completed the OOC schedule, I can't be the only one disappointed in the lack of production here. He's scored 24 points in his last 9 games. He was on NBA Mock Draft Lottery boards prior to the season starting. He looked great first couple of games, but has literally fallen off a cliff since then.

Today was his low point (I hope) can't get much worse. 8 minutes. 1 turnover. 3 fouls. 0 stats.

Nobody is in practice, but from the cheap seats this just has to be concerning. Really hoping something changes here. What is going on? He is a complete non factor. Not every 5 star is impact player but I thought this guy was going to at least be a key piece as a rotation player.

Thoughts?
 
I think Mack and him don’t see eye to eye right now. You can tell he’s in the doghouse.

Remember he wasn’t initially highly rated. He was a quick riser in the later period of his senior year. I think the high expectations were too much.

But whatever it is with him, we can’t expect to win a title if he’s not a big time contributor. We brought in this highly rated class and we need some sort of contribution from them.
 
Mack’s top teams at Xavier were led by upperclassmen. He doesn’t have trust in freshmen. To be honest, if Pitino were still coaching there would be a huge uproar over Sam not playing.
 
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LeFors4Ever said:
I think Mack and him don’t see eye to eye right now. You can tell he’s in the doghouse.

Remember he wasn’t initially highly rated. He was a quick riser in the later period of his senior year. I think the high expectations were too much.

But whatever it is with him, we can’t expect to win a title if he’s not a big time contributor. We brought in this highly rated class and we need some sort of contribution from them.
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I didn't have sky high expectations for him, maybe his fast start was some fool's gold. I just thought he'd be contributing a little more than what we're seeing. It's not like he's behind Terry Rozier, Russ Smith, or D Mitch.

Going to be interesting to see if he can get something going this year or have to just wait until the roster changes up next year.
 
Knucklehank1 said:
Mack’s top teams at Xavier were led by upperclassmen. He doesn’t have trust in freshmen. To be honest, if Pitino were still coaching there would be a huge uproar over Sam not playing.
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Are you saying there should be an uproar now?

I mean I really don't know. Like I said in the post above, it's not like he's behind Rozier, Mitchell, or Russ.
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
I didn't have sky high expectations for him, maybe his fast start was some fool's gold. I just thought he'd be contributing a little more than what we're seeing. It's not like he's behind Terry Rozier, Russ Smith, or D Mitch.

Going to be interesting to see if he can get something going this year or have to just wait until the roster changes up next year.
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And I don’t know anything, but my only worry is if he’s in the doghouse is if he doesn’t turn it around that he just says forget it and tries to just go straight pro or transfer.

Guys with that hype expect to dominate. He had 1st round projections in the preseason. Those guys tend to count their money early and want to be the star. I think now he’s pressing harder and harder as he’s fallen behind a slow white kid named Ryan.

I think you just gotta ride with DJ or him until it clicks for one of them.
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
Are you saying there should be an uproar now?

I mean I really don't know. Like I said in the post above, it's not like he's behind Rozier, Mitchell, or Russ.
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And it’s not like Pitino would just sit a freshman. Chane played big minutes as a freshman and Blackshear played big minutes in the final four. Samardo came in and started.

If Lee and Lewis hasn’t transferred in, Don probably plays a whole lot more. To go to your example that if there were better players in front, it’s understandable.
 
LeFors4Ever said:
And it’s not like Pitino would just sit a freshman. Chane played big minutes as a freshman and Blackshear played big minutes in the final four. Samardo came in and started.

If Lee and Lewis hasn’t transferred in, Don probably plays a whole lot more. To go to your example that if there were better players in front, it’s understandable.
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Rick started Jerry Smith and Samardo pretty much every game as FR. People just bitched about Rick because that was the thing to do LOL
 
Sam the man has had some great contributions esp early in season. Today wasn't his day. Freshmen in a very hostile environment and a very physical game sometimes can't contribute. In 8 minutes, 3 fouls=typical.
 
PHCARD said:
Sam the man has had some great contributions esp early in season. Today wasn't his day. Freshmen in a very hostile environment and a very physical game sometimes can't contribute. In 8 minutes, 3 fouls=typical.
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Yeah, to be clear, it's not so much today's game - it's the last 9 games where he's averaging under 3 ppg. Yes, I agree his first few games were very solid. Which makes his regression a little surprising to me.

I mean maybe that's just what he's going to do until further notice. Not sure, I hope not. Maybe he's just not ready. We shall see.
 
PHCARD said:
Sam the man has had some great contributions esp early in season. Today wasn't his day. Freshmen in a very hostile environment and a very physical game sometimes can't contribute. In 8 minutes, 3 fouls=typical.
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And that’s the big thing too. Everyone wanting DJ to play more, but I’m thinking that he would've probably produced a similar result.

All year we’ve been begging Darius to take the lead, but he just hasn’t. I think today Fresh said it’s my team if Perry doesn’t want to take control.
 
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LeFors4Ever said:
And that’s the big thing too. Everyone wanting DJ to play more, but I’m thinking that he would've probably produced a similar result.

All year we’ve been begging Darius to take the lead, but he just hasn’t. I think today Fresh said it’s my team if Perry doesn’t want to take control.
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As I tried to say in another post, it seems people are eager to throw McMahon under the bus. The thing is Ryan does contribute in other ways when his shot is not falling. He had 4 assists and a good shot fake that got him to the line albeit he missed one. Perry, for instance if his shot is not falling, is not really contributing in other areas.
 
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Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
Concern? Standard Growing Pains? Disappointed?

Wish I posted this at the beginning of the season, but since the Cards have completed the OOC schedule, I can't be the only one disappointed in the lack of production here. He's scored 24 points in his last 9 games. He was on NBA Mock Draft Lottery boards prior to the season starting. He looked great first couple of games, but has literally fallen off a cliff since then.

Today was his low point (I hope) can't get much worse. 8 minutes. 1 turnover. 3 fouls. 0 stats.

Nobody is in practice, but from the cheap seats this just has to be concerning. Really hoping something changes here. What is going on? He is a complete non factor. Not every 5 star is impact player but I thought this guy was going to at least be a key piece as a rotation player.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
He needs on the court. Hell, we lost our “rivalry” game today. Both Williamson and David Johnson need to play. We’re not going anywhere unless they are playing, and I mean playing a lot more than they’ve been playing. We’re not going to no final four with Ryan McMahon as a starter playing 30 plus minutes a game.
 
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I find it slightly concerning. Without inside knowledge, I would guess Sam isn't performing to certain standards in practice or CCM just has more trust in his upperclassmen and sticks with them during games.

Or Sam ran into a freshman wall once they got deeper into the schedule. It is puzzling in that he looked very smooth and quite skilled early in the season so it could be any number of things or even something that none of us can guess. Am I disappointed? Not really. I never put too much pressure on a freshman to have a stellar first season.

If he stays here I do see him having a pretty great sophomore season and will get big minutes. That doesn't help this season though so I understand the frustration that some fans feel.
 
We just lost to our rival in a game we really should have won. However there is still a lot of ball to play and this team can still have a great year.
 
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KozmasAgain said:
We just lost to our rival in a game we really should have won. However there is still a lot of ball to play and this team can still have a great year.
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My definition of grew year is once March starts, do we feel good about winning 6 games in a row. And not about if we get a good draw or “we have as good a chance as anyone”, do we feel like we can go out and beat the best in the country. Sometimes you lose, in 2017 I get great about that team but a good Michigan team got us, but I still feel like that team was in good position.

Right now, this team doesn’t look like they can win a national title. They can’t close out big games and the guards don’t provide enough offense.

Now of course they can get better and Mack is a good coach, but as of today I don’t see this as a team that can make a run. It looks like a team that needs a lot of luck and a great draw.
 
He isn’t good on defense there is your answer. I would say he is really struggling in practice on the defensive end. He gets is the game commits 3 fouls right away. Big adjustment on that side of the ball. DJ is apparently worse.

That explains McMahons minutes the coaches don’t trust any of the freshman.
 
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Geez people i cannot believe what the hell i'm reading about a freshman. Do some of you really watch or have a clue about freshman in sports especially BB. They are not going to be anywhere consistent game to game period. Their is so much that factors into the mindset these are still teenagers trying to process alot in a short period. You can't base every player equal. They go to teams that require more or less from each one of them. This causes different results in their play. I'll use UK for expample not all of his freshmen perform at the same level even though they get to start and play alot because that's just his system of high turnover. So his high level freshman seem to perform much better than players from teams like ours.

Sam will be alright his offensive game is developed enough to contribute but his mental aspect of defending and being in the right sets is still not their. All you have to do is watch the game you can see this. Duke last year was a perfect example of freshman up and down play. They all hit that that proverbial wall every last one of them.
 
None of the “Super Six” are making any impact. Really thought we’d see either Williamson or Johnson providing impactful minutes on a regular basis.
 
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The landscape of the game has changed so much over time. 10-20 years ago topics like this never really got my attention. Whoever plays, plays.

But now, with guys transferring more than decades ago, guys turning pro without any stats to support, guys even going overseas, I think it's a really good discussion topic.

It's still really early, only a third into the season. I do miss the days of 4 year player development, or maybe if they are really good 3 years.

Will be interesting to see how this goes.
 
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Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
The landscape of the game has changed so much over time. 10-20 years ago topics like this never really got my attention. Whoever plays, plays.

But now, with guys transferring more than decades ago, guys turning pro without any stats to support, guys even going overseas, I think it's a really good discussion topic.

It's still really early, only a third into the season. I do miss the days of 4 year player development, or maybe if they are really good 3 years.

Will be interesting to see how this goes.
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Who named these players the super six (FANS) Mack not at one time said they were. I remember Mack stating how each one of these players had alot to work on and that the Hulk really need basic BB development.
 
I don’t have any issues with what Williamson has done, his leash is short. If he played like Nwora, he’d never get off the bench. Williamson will be just fine, Nwora however plays like Deng Adel....and that’s not a good recipe in March.
 
Knucklehank1 said:
Mack’s top teams at Xavier were led by upperclassmen. He doesn’t have trust in freshmen. To be honest, if Pitino were still coaching there would be a huge uproar over Sam not playing.
Click to expand...
True, but in his later years Naji Marshall, Paul Scruggs and Q Goodin all got major minutes early partially due to injuries. If you can show CCM performance he will play you.
 
Calipari rolls the ball to the 5 star freshmen from day 1 and says your the man.
Mack could have done the same with Williamson and Johnson and they would either sunk or swam. Calipari just has a higher percentage of players in that category.
 
I truly believe Williamson has to be a contributor for this team to reach it's full potential. It will be interesting to see how this plays out the remainder of this season.
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
Concern? Standard Growing Pains? Disappointed?

Wish I posted this at the beginning of the season, but since the Cards have completed the OOC schedule, I can't be the only one disappointed in the lack of production here. He's scored 24 points in his last 9 games. He was on NBA Mock Draft Lottery boards prior to the season starting. He looked great first couple of games, but has literally fallen off a cliff since then.

Today was his low point (I hope) can't get much worse. 8 minutes. 1 turnover. 3 fouls. 0 stats.

Nobody is in practice, but from the cheap seats this just has to be concerning. Really hoping something changes here. What is going on? He is a complete non factor. Not every 5 star is impact player but I thought this guy was going to at least be a key piece as a rotation player.


Thoughts?
Click to expand...
gotta play him - he won’t grow as a player sitting on the bench!
 
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The kid needs to play. He also needs to be allowed to work through some of his mistakes, because he can do things others can't. He's a 5* recruit, and how you handle him could be detrimental or helpful for recruiting in years to come.

He needs to play. There is absolutely no reason to play Sutton 38+ minutes a game, they need to run some plays for Williamson as well. Sit Nwora when he's jacking three's and turning the ball over.
 
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He’s been playing. It was just unfortunate that he picked up 3 quick fouls in the UK game. In fact, if you go back and look, Mack brought him in to replace Nwora with the 3 fouls briefly. Everyone including Mack thought Nwora would come alive at some point.
 
Good discussion question... Of course, there are ways to analyze this objectively. And you have to put the question in context, i.e., the team that Williamson is playing for.

I like to evaluate one of our recruits in comparison to other recruits ranked at the same level. Williamson was 19th in the country per Rivals in 2019, so I looked at the 19th ranked recruits in each of the last three years. I looked at their freshman stats and the teams they played for. Here's the summary...

Sam-Williamson-Freshman.jpg
Williamson's stats lag the other three guys. He's also getting about half the playing time. So it appears he's roughly as productive as other five-star recruits at his approximate ranking. There's nothing wrong with his performance.

You also see that Williamson is playing for a higher ranked team nationally, based on results to date. So logically, he's facing more competition for playing time. The kid with the best stats on this list--Heron--played for Auburn in 2016-2017 which had a losing record in the SEC, lost in the first game of the conference tourney, and didn't play in the postseason.

If you believe as I do that there's nothing much wrong with Williamson or how he's being coached and utilized, all of that stuff makes sense. As far as freshmen, I'd be more concerned about Aiden Igiehon and what our future holds with/for him. He's in a critical position of need next year, shows very little in the way of fundamental basketball skills, and is reportedly expressing his unhappiness on social media...
 
zipp said:
Good discussion question... Of course, there are ways to analyze this objectively. And you have to put the question in context, i.e., the team that Williamson is playing for.

I like to evaluate one of our recruits in comparison to other recruits ranked at the same level. Williamson was 19th in the country per Rivals in 2019, so I looked at the 19th ranked recruits in each of the last three years. I looked at their freshman stats and the teams they played for. Here's the summary...

Sam-Williamson-Freshman.jpg
Williamson's stats lag the other three guys. He's also getting about half the playing time. So it appears he's roughly as productive as other five-star recruits at his approximate ranking. There's nothing wrong with his performance.

You also see that Williamson is playing for a higher ranked team nationally, based on results to date. So logically, he's facing more competition for playing time. The kid with the best stats on this list--Heron--played for Auburn in 2016-2017 which had a losing record in the SEC, lost in the first game of the conference tourney, and didn't play in the postseason.

If you believe as I do that there's nothing much wrong with Williamson or how he's being coached and utilized, all of that stuff makes sense. As far as freshmen, I'd be more concerned about Aiden Igiehon and what our future holds with/for him. He's in a critical position of need next year, shows very little in the way of fundamental basketball skills, and is reportedly expressing his unhappiness on social media...
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This is good Z thanks. I actually did look @ a lot of other guys near Sam's rating from this year, yes majority are playing more, but a few are actually seeing limited minutes similar to him also. It is interesting Heron transferred after 2 years, I think Walker was a OAD, and I believe the kid @ FLA is still there producing.

The culture of the landscape of the game is what concerns me I guess. Most fans wanted to "blame" Pitino when guys like Aaron transferred but I think the reality is the player's mindset/handlers/family on what "they" want is what we see when guys turn pro early, transfer, etc. I admit I am not up to speed about how any of these players "feel" about their time at UofL.

I will admit I was wrong about Sam, this situation going into the year. I'm not afraid to say that. I thought at best for him on an individual level he'd be the starting SG averaging something between 7-11PPG on this team as the 3rd/4th option. Or, a productive 6th man role. I thought he'd be averaging closer to 20 minutes. This isn't an indictment on Mack, Sam, or anything. I'm just surprised by how this is going. Hey, I was wrong about the situation. He's mostly a non-factor but I suppose an injury or improvement could change this situation.
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
This is good Z thanks. I actually did look @ a lot of other guys near Sam's rating from this year, yes majority are playing more, but a few are actually seeing limited minutes similar to him also. It is interesting Heron transferred after 2 years, I think Walker was a OAD, and I believe the kid @ FLA is still there producing.

The culture of the landscape of the game is what concerns me I guess. Most fans wanted to "blame" Pitino when guys like Aaron transferred but I think the reality is the player's mindset/handlers/family on what "they" want is what we see when guys turn pro early, transfer, etc. I admit I am not up to speed about how any of these players "feel" about their time at UofL.

I will admit I was wrong about Sam, this situation going into the year. I'm not afraid to say that. I thought at best for him on an individual level he'd be the starting SG averaging something between 7-11PPG on this team as the 3rd/4th option. Or, a productive 6th man role. I thought he'd be averaging closer to 20 minutes. This isn't an indictment on Mack, Sam, or anything. I'm just surprised by how this is going. Hey, I was wrong about the situation. He's mostly a non-factor but I suppose an injury or improvement could change this situation.
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Your last sentence is BS. He’s the 3rd guy off the bench on a team that is experienced loaded. He’s the backup to an all-American ((Nwora) and the actual MVP on this team (Sutton). He’s not a non-factor and the fact you suggested someone needs to get hurt for him to play more speaks volumes. He’s not the 2 guard on this team which seemingly has 4 or 5. If he played the 2 guard DJ would never get off the bench. Perhaps we should have understood Mack’s style of play before we crowned him the next HOF coach. We all said give him time. As U of L fans, it’s hard to be patient considering our basketball history.
 
We played poorly didn’t hit our free throws , didn’t execute well and it didn’t have anything to do with sUcK being a better team. Both teams started off ranked high and both teams have problems they have to solve. We don’t have a much needed point guard and they don’t have string interior players.
 
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