...UVA and ND? You'd be #1 in the ACC instead of having two OOC wins against relative nobodies.
Congrats if you're still THAT guy.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Congrats if you're still THAT guy.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Still glad to get those LPT and IU wins instead of...
- Thread starter zipp
- Start date
The Cards are 7-3 in the best basketball conference in college basketball. The way its turned out, losing to IU and UofK would have hurt the ranking and seeding worse than losing to Notre Dame and Virginia. So with that said, I'm glad the Cards won those two games OOC. We are in great shape in conference.
Cards play ND at home . Theyll win.
They can beat VA Monday nite or in the ACC tourney.
Winning those OOC games will get the Cards a 1 or 2 seed.
By the way, UofL is tied for 2nd, ND is 5th.
OP fails.
They can beat VA Monday nite or in the ACC tourney.
Winning those OOC games will get the Cards a 1 or 2 seed.
By the way, UofL is tied for 2nd, ND is 5th.
OP fails.
That's the "smaller trophy" perspective. "I'll take the smaller trophy."
From a larger perspective, winning the conference is one of our highest goals each season. Not because of the banner, but because it's the biggest step on the road to a national championship. The ACC champion this year will at least have a two-seed, probably a one. You don't get a good seed by winning a couple games of regional interest three months earlier. No one gives a damn about those games outside of a 300-mile radius.
I said it in late-December when SO many people were happy with the LPT win... You don't yet know how good (or not) that win is. Historically, when we beat LPT, it turns out to not be such a big deal. I've seen this movie before, and that trophy on your shelf is shrinking.
"Elite program", my a$$...
From a larger perspective, winning the conference is one of our highest goals each season. Not because of the banner, but because it's the biggest step on the road to a national championship. The ACC champion this year will at least have a two-seed, probably a one. You don't get a good seed by winning a couple games of regional interest three months earlier. No one gives a damn about those games outside of a 300-mile radius.
I said it in late-December when SO many people were happy with the LPT win... You don't yet know how good (or not) that win is. Historically, when we beat LPT, it turns out to not be such a big deal. I've seen this movie before, and that trophy on your shelf is shrinking.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Not sure about that analysis... It would also hurt you losing to BC and Virginia in football in exchange for beating FSU and Clemson. Which of those wins would you take? Getting "hurt" ain't an overriding factor.
And that trade would at least net out the same in the football conference. You're accepting two ADDITIONAL losses in the basketball conference for nothing but old OOC wins that are declining in relevance. That's a loser's gambit.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Basketball isn't football. You can't compare the two sports and come to the same conclusion. I'm not trading anything either and I'm not the one desperate to hold on to an argument that apparently you feel you lost so many months ago. Local rivalry games are always going to be important to local fans even if you wish to act like you're above it. I get your point. We ALL get your point. Your ego won't allow for you to feel as if you've lost an argument. OK, you win. Feel better? While we're at it, what are we supposed to do? NOT accept those losses? You got a time machine?
All I'm saying is we're 7-3 in the best BASKETBALL conference in the country, and 1 game out of 1st place. We're doing fine.
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There's more to life than being 1st in the ACC.
Let's see, 9-1 in the ACC vs losses OOC to IU and UK.....the rest of the country would think that the ACC is down since a lousy IU and even UK beat the ACC leader. ???
Which one does the most for national perception?......oh,I know, nobody outside of the 300 mile area, nobody gives a darn......NOT! Except in the mind of a little brother mentality.
If I am living in the southwest, mid west or west.....I would think the ACC must not be very tough this year if they can't even beat UK and IU teams that are struggling..
Thank goodness I live in the mid east/south east, where the greatest basketball of all is played so I don't have that perception problem. Carry on with that.
Which one does the most for national perception?
......oh,I know, nobody outside of the 300 mile area, nobody gives a darn......NOT! Except in the mind of a little brother mentality.If I am living in the southwest, mid west or west.....I would think the ACC must not be very tough this year if they can't even beat UK and IU teams that are struggling..
Thank goodness I live in the mid east/south east, where the greatest basketball of all is played so I don't have that perception problem.
Carry on with that.
Not in "basketball life" there isn't.There's more to life than being 1st in the ACC.
But if "life" is your yardstick, ain't there a whole lot more than beating LPT for some of you? Kinda sad.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Again, that logic cuts all ways... Doesn't that also mean beating FSU and Clemson in football but losing to BC and UVA indicate to the rest of country that the ACC is down in football? So you will continue to overlook losses to Clemson and FSU as long as you beat the weak sisters in our conference? By that reasoning, you will NEVER want to beat the better teams--bad look for the ACC.Let's see, 9-1 in the ACC vs losses OOC to IU and UK.....the rest of the country would think that the ACC is down since a lousy IU and even UK beat the ACC leader. ???
Which one does the most for national perception?
If I am living in the southwest, mid west or west.....I would think the ACC must not be very tough this year if they can't even beat UK and IU teams that are struggling..
Thank goodness I live in the mid east/south east, where the greatest basketball of all is played so I don't have that perception problem.
That's ridiculous... How many posters in this space are panting for those very two football wins every year, even if it means we finish 2-6 in the conference? Same in basketball. Most will always take wins over Duke and UNC. And the football example is TRADING conference wins. I'm talking about netting two MORE victories in basketball. Your quest to beat LPT is blinding you guys to the reality of your situation. Winning the ACC is a far higher priority every year.
"Elite program", my a$$...
By the way, isn't trying to value the LPT win this year conflicting you guys somewhat? Don't you need to be pulling for LPT in a game like last nite's? Esp. with someone like me running the issue up the flagpole with each additional loss.
Better start hoping the slapd!cks turn it around.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Better start hoping the slapd!cks turn it around.
"Elite program", my a$$...
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Sure you can. Seeding for the NCAA is just like ranking teams in the CFP. The only difference is way more teams are selected in football. The CFP is like picking the one-seeds in basketball. YOU don't come to the "same conclusion" because you reason differently in the two situations. That's on you.
Thanks for the psychoanalysis, Cue, but you know better than to try that argument on me. For one thing, the "argument" is far from settled. Not when people are so blinded to the irrelevance of this "rivalry" that they make bad decisions. And if I'm "acting", explain to me how that's the case--with evidence, please?
I don't think you get it, not when you continue to debate it. And my position has nothing to do with "feeling" or "ego". If there's an emotion, it's frustration--that so many in my own fanbase have so much latent little-brother in them. As I said, it's kinda sad.
It's true that the argument is hypothetical. But I'm just re-proposing the same either-or question that was posed at the time those four games were played. (I may be mistaken, but I actually recall Howie proposing it...) I'd argue the answers underlie bigger decision-making issues in our fanbase and our administration. That's why the answers have relevance: they determine how you make future decisions.
Yeah, but that's settling. It's "let's beat LPT even if it's at the expense of higher goals" thinking. Goals involve priorities. You don't sacrifice a higher one for one lower. That mindset gets communicated to your coaches and your players, and they start thinking "yeah, but we beat LPT". Whether you understand it or not, you don't want that outcome.
"Elite program", my a$$...
The funny thing is I agreed with you 2 months ago when you brought this topic up zipp. I've always believed conference games are more important, but to argue about it now is pointless. We beat IU and UofK and we're 7-3 thus far in the best college basketball conference on earth. I'm liking the position we're in. I don't see a down side. Maybe you do.
Shall I bring up the TV ratings for for UofL vs UK game to once again to dispel the zipp notion that "no one cares"?
Be my guest, but that's wearing the "biggest guppy" name badge in the fishbowl. I'm sure without checking that the Whachamacallit Bowl that week between Nobody State and Whocares Tech outdistanced it. You're on the college basketball version of The Titanic telling me how important this cruise ship is. And most of the eyes and ears left are on deck next to you--everyone else has jumped into a lifeboat.
Throw off your old shackles and POVs. I used to be one of you guys too until I saw the light. You're in the big leagues now, and it's time we all started thinking big.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Ok, so now TV ratings don't matter and not considering TV ratings is "thinking big".
Others might argue that worrying about conference championships is not "thinking big". The anti-Tom Crean crowd.
Midseason college basketball TV ratings are irrelevant. A conference championship, esp. the ACC, helps pave the way for what really matters, the postseason. I didn't deal these cards, it's the hand we were dealt...
When you talk in absolutes.....you die in absolutes. Your logic is rendered otiose....that is - ineffective, futile, useless and superfluous. CFB is not CBB and crossover analogies fail for that reason.
Winning the ACC in football is a higher priority.....in BB it is a goal, but even if you fall short of 1st place....you still can qualify for the NCAA-T...not so much in FB for the FB FF out of the ACC. Not apples to apples.
The BB committee registers BB victories over blue blood programs as valued quality wins whether you can or will admit that or not.
2 of the last 3 national champions did not win their conference. Seems like you may be overvaluing that.
That's all stats. Something like 55% of the champs have been one seeds. Doesn't mean you have to be a one-seed, but it means you wanna try for it. For us, best way to that is to win the ACC.
You do that by focusing on games that objectively matter, and not games that matter TO YOU.
"Elite program", my a$$...
I'm still that guy, zipp! thank you! Feels good!
BTW, I'll take wins over UK, IU, Duke, UNC, the ACC title, the ACC tourney champs, and the NCAA championship this season!! You heard it from old Guy here first!!
BTW, I'll take wins over UK, IU, Duke, UNC, the ACC title, the ACC tourney champs, and the NCAA championship this season!! You heard it from old Guy here first!!
The wins against local rivalry teams are valuable in the NCAA and to the fan base. It would be much more fun to play Memphis State and Cincinnati than Boston College.
Zipp are you familiar with the genius of the "and"? You can win those OOC games, AND you can win the ACC.
To answer your question directly, a loss to IU would be bad loss and a drag on the seeding, while losses to UVA and ND do not have that affect. So, I don't trade that win. As for UK, they're still a Top 10 team that we beat. I would trade the UK win for a win over ND or UVA.
Back when this last came up, I was in favor of having the ACC wins over the rivalry wins. We were 0-2 in the league facing a must-win game to avoid 0-3.
But as you pointed out, the situation has changed with IU. Losing to them is much worse than losing to any of the other 3 teams just because they're in a free fall. A loss to IU is now a bad loss on your NCAA resume. Depending on how much worse IU gets, losing to them could end up costing a team a lower seed in the NCAA Tournament. I wouldn't want to trade a loss to any Top 25 team for a loss to IU at this stage.
However, if I could trade the win over UK for a win over Virginia I would.
There's nothing wrong with wanting it all, but that's seldom achieved in the real world. It's why Howie posed the original question back in Dec. It's also why a proper goal-setting process doesn't have 4 or 5 number one goals.
#1 is winning a championship, and the #1 way you do that is win the ACC. Which is why your coaches ALL say winning the conference is next in line. You don't do that by trading conference wins for OOC wins. This year was a good example of where the "rivalry" mindset could backfire--the LPT game was right on top of the UVA game. If your coaches and players think the LPT game is more important, they could put too much focus on the wrong game. That works against your #1 goal for the season.
That really wasn't the basis for the question now... We still have ACC games AT UNC, AT Cuse, and AT UVA. We sure as hell could use those two conference wins now. And if you don't recognize that, your personal goals are out-of-sync with the team's. Let's see how the rest of the conference schedule plays out, and the debate will be resolved.
"Elite program", my a$$...
The fans and players have one common goal - advance in the tourney and ultimately win a national championship. For fans, everything else prior to that is entertainment. If there is some proof that beating Notre Dame helps more with that common goal than beating Kentucky, then show it. Until then I'll be more entertained watching Louisville beat UK. And based on the increased viewership, more people feel that way.
I'm not a student of the NCAA selection criteria, but that logic makes no sense to me. (You're not the only one who has expressed it...) Even if LPT's higher ranking holds, you're saying that a win over a better team has more impact than a loss to a worse team on your resume. I'd like to see an independent reference for that.
And UVA is ranked as high as LPT anyway. In effect, you traded a win over ND for a win over IU. Bad decision.
"Elite program", my a$$...
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There's plenty of proof that a higher seed improves your chances of winning the Big Dance. And winning the ACC this year IMO gets you, at a minimum, a two-seed. As we sit today, we don't have any guarantee like that.
Not to mention, you have no guarantee of the value of that LPT win in another few weeks; right now, it ain't looking good. As usual, we beat them in basketball when the win is worth less. Some of you guys just don't or refuse to understand that.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Mike, how is beating ND of less significance than losing to IU? You're saying that beating ND helps you less than losing to IU hurts you. I'd like to see that detailed somewhere.
When talking heads talk about bad losses, it's generally a win-or-lose situation with one team, e.g., you beat IU or you lose to IU. I can understand how THAT win helps you less than THAT loss hurts. But we're talking about trading wins and losses with different teams, one pretty good and one not. I think the analysis is different, or I'd like to be shown otherwise.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Well Zipp to call the win over UK worthless is a stretch. If it's a win against T50 team, it has value.
Appreciate everyone's participation. But I'm increasingly curious why no one supporting the "rivalry" wants to answer the above question. Is everyone too conflicted to even attempt an answer or risk looking like a closet slappy?
Funny stuff.
"Elite program". my a$$...
If I said it's "worthless", I agree. But a single game in December compared to winning the ACC is a lot less significant to folks outside the 502.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Except the tv ratings indicate that the game has a lot of interest outside the 502. You're assertions are all anecdotal at best and not based on any facts.
Still with the Big Guppy mindset... IIRC, there were 1.5 million people nationally watching that December game outside the area. You're only big time against other regular season college basketball games with those kinda numbers.
Again, tonite's result shows how badly you needed those two conference games whether you understood it or not. We still have to play AT UNC and AT Cuse.
"Elite program", my a$$...
You've yet to prove why we needed those other games any more than we needed the UK game. A regular season ACC championship doesn't determine the ultimate prize. The regular season is for entertainment purposes.
Because winning the ACC will be good for a one- or two-seed in the tourney. At the moment, you traded that for a win over the 15th best team--and declining--in the nation.
1.5 million people = a little less than the State of Idaho. Congrats on locking up the Potato State for two hours on weeknite.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Plenty of ACC teams are 1 or 2 seeds without winning the regular season title. Worrying about regular season titles is small fish thinking.
