Former Player Speaks to NCAA per Eric Crawford
- Thread starter Knucklehank1
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Well said, the only thing that former players have confirmed was girls in bikinis dancing.
Your reasoning skills need some serious work.
First, you have answered your own question. An unnamed player stated that girls danced in bathing suits while some guys threw money. Did this same person confirm that they were the strippers that Powell alleged to have provided? Were they some other, as you said, random strippers? They could very well be a different group of strippers, or they could be college girls trying to impress the guys on the basketball team. Either way, I think the city of Louisville probably has more than one group of strippers in it. To conclude that they were the same group of strippers would require that the witness say, "I recognized those strippers as being the ones that Katina Powell." The closest statement made to that effect was that he did not know if any of them were Powell's daughters, which were the strippers Powell alleges to have provided.
Next, the WDRB story is Crawford reporting that a source told him that a former player told the NCAA that there were strippers in the dorm. In the ESPN story, a player tells ESPN that girls danced in bathing suits while guys threw money at them. You should know that the story that is most likely factual is the ESPN story simply because it comes directly from a player. In this story, nothing illegal or improper took place. He did not identify any recruits being present, and he states no sex took place. He could not state that any girl was underage. Anybody who is appalled by college age guys being entertained by watching girls in bathing suits dance has his or her head in the sand.
Furthermore, you said that a second player came forward, citing the ESPN story. Given the similarities in the stories, (i.e. no sex took place and the money came from guys throwing dollar bills at the girls) it is possible that both stories are about accounts described by the same former player.
Simply put, there isn't enough information to prove that your conclusions are correct. Nonetheless, you have chosen to draw the conclusions that disparage the basketball team. Either you lack the ability to reason or, in this case, you lack the objectivity to do so properly. If you really are an MD, I hope my loved ones never encounter you.
As for me, I am waiting for the final report, instead of drawing conclusions based on these bits and pieces. These stories have one goal: to attract readers. Sex sells, and that is why we are going to see stories about Powell's allegations: not really to inform us, but to titillate us.
and knowing this
This lady wants to hurt us so she very well could have took parts of the story (girls dancing) and turned it into an all out orgy, they say the best lies aspects of truth.
This lady wants to hurt us so she very well could have took parts of the story (girls dancing) and turned it into an all out orgy, they say the best lies aspects of truth.
The more I read and respond to these post, the more I am starting to realize that it may be a little questionable/distasteful to have dancers in the dorms, but it's not a NCAA violation if UofL and/or it representatives did not authorize it/pay for them to be there.
If can be proven that McGee had no such interaction with Powell, then who is behind the dancers and the dorm rooms?
I still think McGee is a patsy in all of this.
Could it be that Powell used her association with McGee to befriend others? Then with her new friends arrange for the dancers to meet?
That would explain a lot of gaps in the players acknowledgement. It appears that only certain players have knowledge/participated.
If it was rampant or widely known, wouldn't someone pointed out McGee by now? Or at the least anonymously at this point.
If can be proven that McGee had no such interaction with Powell, then who is behind the dancers and the dorm rooms?
I still think McGee is a patsy in all of this.
Could it be that Powell used her association with McGee to befriend others? Then with her new friends arrange for the dancers to meet?
That would explain a lot of gaps in the players acknowledgement. It appears that only certain players have knowledge/participated.
If it was rampant or widely known, wouldn't someone pointed out McGee by now? Or at the least anonymously at this point.
Yeah, you're right. No one stripped, they simply arrived already in their bikinis, ready to dance and have money thrown at them. Just like Powell had a 15 year old daughter that worked for her and was involved in all of the other stuff, but when it came time to dance in their bikinis at the UofL dorms, Powell made her stay at home.
Let me ask you this; why do you think the Commonwealth's Attorney and the police are taking this so seriously and investigating Powell? They couldn't care less if Powell's a madame, escort, prostitute, stripper or bikini dancer. The reason they are taking this so seriously, and the reason they have opened up an investigation is because she had her 15 year old daughter involved in her mess.
So, that leads me back to my first question. Lets explain away everything. There was zero money involved. This was just a crew of hood rat groupies that wanted to dance in their bikinis for the UofL basketball players. That's totally believable and I'm sure it happens more times than not. Well, how do you explain away the 15 year old daughter? With no money exchanging hands and only dancing in a bikini, a 15 year old being involved is still a very big deal.
Let me ask you this; why do you think the Commonwealth's Attorney and the police are taking this so seriously and investigating Powell? They couldn't care less if Powell's a madame, escort, prostitute, stripper or bikini dancer. The reason they are taking this so seriously, and the reason they have opened up an investigation is because she had her 15 year old daughter involved in her mess.
So, that leads me back to my first question. Lets explain away everything. There was zero money involved. This was just a crew of hood rat groupies that wanted to dance in their bikinis for the UofL basketball players. That's totally believable and I'm sure it happens more times than not. Well, how do you explain away the 15 year old daughter? With no money exchanging hands and only dancing in a bikini, a 15 year old being involved is still a very big deal.
The problem we are running into is that a lot of things were thrown out there because of the media used was a book. Books normally do not bring a story like this out, it's usually at the end when a conclusion has be reached when all of the facts have been presented.
We'll start with who introduced Powell and her posse to the dorm and players, McGee. His lawyer has denied McGee' involvement with Powell in physical and hosting. So far this has held true with the anonymous sources.
So who made the dancers available and compensated if it was not McGee? It would have to be the next person in line, Powell.
How? Well if she had befriended McGee, she could have positioned herself as a "known" person to some of the players and those around them.
She herself could have introduced herself and what she had to offer by fishing it around. Would anyone who was receiving her services go tell it on the mountain so everyone would know what they were doing? Probably not.
If it was as rampant as she claimed it to be, more than the basketball players would have been recipients of hers services. Hell, my money would have been just as good if I was in the dorm.
One anonymous player actually explained away the money. So there goes the compensation angle against the University and its representative.
Then we have the story about the fifteen year old. Since we have no case of sex by the anonymous players, we would have to conclude that she did not participate in that matter.
We'll have to wait for the police investigation on that one. They'll pour over the film to see if the young girl was actually there and which dorm she signed under.
Remember it was Powell who made this allegation. However to no one surprise has anyone confirmed it.
I think it was an embellishment to shock the reader and boost sales. I don't think anyone on their side thought otherwise when it came about.
You sure you read the ESPN story? I'd suggest you read it again. In that story the former UofL player specifically mentions Powell, and says he remembers her face. So that means that Powell was in fact present. Which would also mean that Powell provided the dancers, and among the dancers that she provides is her 15 year old daughter.
This has already been verified by CBS in an article and C.L. Brown on the radio. The players in question are not the same people. Two totally different former players have confirmed that dancers were in the dorm.
Again you are wrong. He said he recognized Powell and only Powell. That does not prove that a 15 year old girl was there. While it is a possibility, it is not enough info to confirm the 15 year old was there. If they showed the player a picture of the 15 year old girl and he recognized her, then there would be some evidence.
Furthermore, if girls dance and undress to their bathing suits, that would fit the definition of stripping. It wouldn't be anything illegal or improper, and it would not be worse than anything you could see on broadcast TV.
A few years ago, Pubisher's Clearinghouse ran a commercial in which they rang a doorbell and asked a teenage girl wearing only a towel if her mother was there. She said no. They showed the girl the prize causing her to scream. Nonetheless, a teenage girl in a towel was not censored.
You also pointed out that the Commonwealth Attorney is investigating Powell. Being a madam is illegal regardless of the age of the girls or who her clients are. She claimed in the book to be a madam and should be investigated for that fact alone.
This has gotten to the point of highjacking the thread. You have made the same claim over and over, and posters here have questioned it over and over. Please provides the links to the ESPN and CBS articles you feel confirm two different former UofL players have verified the book's claims. If you can't provide the links, please stop making these claims here.
Can you provide the CBS article stating that two players confirmed it? Given that the sources are remaining anonymous, CBS and C.L. Brown would not know who spoke to the other or to ESPN. I am not willing to take you at your word about this, given your other logical fallacies.
I found a Gary Parrish, from CBSSports.com column claiming two former players have stated dancers were in the dorm. The problem with Parrish's article is he is referencing the same two articles cited in this thread: one from ESPN and one from WDRB. Parrish has no additional info on this, and has made the same error our guest on this board has made: two articles so it must be two different people. Unless ESPN can get the player to say he was not the person who was being described in the WDRB story (which was from a source who was familiar with the statements and not from the player himself) it is fallacious to say they are different people.
Again, we will get the full story when the time comes. Anything else, just like our guest's claim, is just innuendo. There will be lots of it coming because sex sells newspapers and gets viewers to your website.
Again, we will get the full story when the time comes. Anything else, just like our guest's claim, is just innuendo. There will be lots of it coming because sex sells newspapers and gets viewers to your website.
Yeah, the sources stayed anonymous to the public, but C.L. Brown and Eric Crawford knew exactly who they were interviewing.
If you listened to C.L. Brown on the Underdogs Friday, he said that his and Crawford's source weren't one in the same. For him to state that as a matter of fact, he and Eric had to have spoke off the record about which player they interviewed.
Not to mention, if you read the book you would know that Powell only has a few girls. She's not Heidi Fleiss, with a stable of girls. She named the same four - five girls at every party. Her three daughters, including the 15 year old, were always named. So again, if Powell was there, then her three daughters were there. It was a family thing.
So you're not drawing any conclusion, you knows this for a fact ?
Which means you were there ?
The book claims that McGee arranged 22 parties with the Powell woman for strippers and sex over a four year period. That averages out to a party every two and a half months. The part that concerns me is he contacted and arranged a party with this woman and her crew after he was employed at his new school (It is one of the allegations, proven or not). For that to have happened some one else had to know what he was doing (player, staff, booster, friend) and contacted McGee for him to make the party arrangements from his new location. Hoping that can not be proven.
Yes, everyone has to take all the allegations with a grain of salt. I'm hoping that what went on at these parties was not as bad as what is being discussed. I would venture to say that a lot more people will be interviewed by investigators (NCAA & law enforcement) and WE WILL NOT KNOW what they said vs the number of people who leak what they said. So baseing a judgement on what we have heard went on one way or the other is foolish. Food for thought.
Sadly, this type of issue constantly being in the forefront shines a bad light on all the hard working staff, teachers, administrators and students at the University that have nothing to do with the sports programs. I feel for them.
Unfortunately, sports has grown into to big of a money maker. One of the reasons I stopped posting on here years ago along with fans becoming (and still are) to fanatical. It's just entertainment not life and death.
What dose have an affect on a person's life is earning their degree. It changed my life and affected the lives of my family members. Students at Louisville pay a lot of money to get that degree. Their teachers teach hundreds of kids a day, encouraging them, influencing them and guiding them towards a better life which is a huge responsibility and at a lot less pay then a basketball coach who makes millions to oversee 13 kids. Not including all their staff.
The University of Louisville is more then it's sports programs and for that not to be taken into consideration is a travesty. Alums cherish their degree because of the hard work and expense it took to obtain not because of who coached or played there.
There is a lot more moral and social ramifications to this ordeal then basketball. Plus, if only a percentage of it is true there are all kinds of victims that this will effect. Yet, people are just worried about the team. It's just a game.
Sorry for rambling on. I guess it's the case manager in me.
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Eric Crawford did not get his info from a former player, he got it from an unnamed source close to the investigation who was commenting on the player's statements. If C.L. Brown spoke to a former player, then they would have to be different sources, but could be info from the same player.
Quoting the book here is a circular reasoning. The questions here is are 1) are her claims true, and 2) which claims, if true, would constitute a violation of NCAA or school rule, or a violation of law? Someone other than Powell would have to provide the evidence that the 15 year old was there. Citing her book is not providing evidence.
Do your own math! You said she has three daughters and four to five people working for her. Based on that statement alone, some of them could not be her daughters.
As I wrote before, this is all innuendo. Forming an early conclusion, good or bad, is irrelevant. The real story will come out eventually.
The one part I am wondering about here is: let's assume her 15 year old did dance in a bathing suit for some of the basketball players and McGee did not arrange for it or pay for it. I find that disgustingly inappropriate, but is it illegal? Is that bad enough for the NCAA to take action? What actions could the University take? I don't know enough to answer those questions. So, I will wait for the full story to come out.
Our discussion on hearsay made me do some digging. Suffice it to say, the subject is too complex for non lawyers. Even lawyers and judges have trouble with its subtle definitions. So, let me say it another way. Hearsay, as part f the rules of evidence doesn't have to be followed by the NCAA. They may never be Ina courtroom and I don't know if testimony given to the NCAA is under oath or not. But, either way, from the perspective of the NCAA, all of this "hearsay" evidence is damning and mounting. First hand testimony s what the NCAA wants and they have gotten it. For now, we don't know who has been questioned and exactly what they said. I would say that former players saying they recognize Powell as being at Minardi for any sort of strip/dance entertainment doesn't help at all. You asked me what I wanted from all of this earlier. All I want is the truth and then things will be handled accordingly. That's all. Same with UK back in the 80's, same with UNC. Do you want the same Zipp?
Okay Eric writes stripper but he didn't convey actually what this former player said what is this players definition of stripping? Was she total nude or in a bathing suit.? Sorry stripping too me is nudity not a chick in a bathing suit taking it off ! I'm sure we all had girlfriends, do this and sit in our room and throw dollar bills at her. C.L wrote dancer because he knows based off what his former player told him Their was not any nudity. I'm just saying Eric chooses to sensationalize his story.> Using the word stripper, and i can't wait to read what was said by his former player.
Well, according to the NCAA "Official Visit" form that has to be signed by the head coach, no type of adult entertainment, drugs or alcohol are allowed. The question then becomes, were recruits at the parties former players admit happened. You also have Lyles testimony to the NCAA. I'm not sure how UL gets ahead of this.
Not trying to pick an argument with anyone on here but we all know what a stripper dose. They come out with some skimpy clothing on and perform by dancing, guys throw or give them dollar bills and eventually in order to make more money the stripper takes it all off and dances nude, usually up close and personal with those providing the most cash. Stripper, dancer, stripping, dancing for money, its all the same thing No matter how we feel or think about it.
I hate that it has happened but this endless banter over this crap it useless regardless of who you root for. An adult who was in charge of kids allegedly cross the line and as adults with kids is this what we want to condone as being ok at a higher learning institution.
I do not appreciate and I am saddened that this went on and was allegedly paid for by a person placed with the responsibility and well being of kids at a school I cherish.
Hearsay is really "damning" only if it's consistent. Different stories from different people end up being just stories, perhaps with little or nothing conclusive. The chick has no criminal record, so why would seeing her on campus be an issue? We don't really know that she's a hooker, only that she SAYS she is. More hearsay.
LPT fans want one thing... For all of this to be true. The real truth?
"Elite program", my a$$...
Hearsay is really "damning" only if it's consistent. Different stories from different people end up being just stories, perhaps with little or nothing conclusive. The chick has no criminal record, so why would seeing her on campus be an issue? We don't really know that she's a hooker, only that she SAYS she is. More hearsay.
LPT fans want one thing... For all of this to be true. The real truth?
"Elite program", my a$$...
You seem to use the word "hearsay" when what you really mean is "rumor" or "innuendo". Hearsay is an out of court statement used to prove the truth of the matter asserted. There is no court here and we are dealing with no classic hearsay statements to my knowledge. So, a discussion of the hearsay rule is totally unwarranted.
I prefer the real truth. If UL did nothing wrong, this needs to go away, soon. I thought I was clear on that.Hearsay is really "damning" only if it's consistent. Different stories from different people end up being just stories, perhaps with little or nothing conclusive. The chick has no criminal record, so why would seeing her on campus be an issue? We don't really know that she's a hooker, only that she SAYS she is. More hearsay.
LPT fans want one thing... For all of this to be true. The real truth?
"Elite program", my a$$...
You're quoting (googled) the legal definition which is based on the word "hearsay". Google that, LPT guy...
"...unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge"
That's EXACTLY what I mean. Maybe there's an alternate LPT definition.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Sure you do.
The only thing that's clear is LPT fans have a big interest. Why is that?
"Elite program", my a$$...
You're quoting (googled) the legal definition which is based on the word "hearsay". Google that, LPT guy...
"...unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge"That's EXACTLY what I mean. Maybe there's an alternate LPT definition.
"Elite program", my a$$...
I'm a life long U of L fan. I'm also a lawyer, which is why I know the definition of hearsay.
How in any way shape or form is this proof it was that hooker or her daughters alleged to be stripping in the dorm just because a former player said girls were stripping in the dorm? Have you lived in a college dorm, been to a party in a dorm, even been to a college campus before? Your assertions are idiotic and very uninformed. I can say without hesitation that during my college days I have trouble recalling a dorm party without some form of nudity and possibly sex taking place. It's the college coed campus life.
Get a freakin clue and stop with your "Because I think it's true means it happened" stupdity tour...and the rest of you uk fans as well hoping upon hope for it to be true. You all look really dumb trying to backup the claims of a horrible human who admits she pimps out her children.
...and to the blue fans claiming 1 former recruit saying he saw the "gist" of something as being an eyewitness account is just hilarious. This isn'tcourt tv.
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Hearsay is really "damning" only if it's consistent. Different stories from different people end up being just stories, perhaps with little or nothing conclusive. The chick has no criminal record, so why would seeing her on campus be an issue? We don't really know that she's a hooker, only that she SAYS she is. More hearsay.
LPT fans want one thing... For all of this to be true. The real truth?
"Elite program", my a$$...
Personally, I really hope these accusations aren't true, and up to this point I haven't been convinced by any evidence claiming they are true. However, the confusion over hearsay is getting out of hand. The problem isn't with the definition but rather the degree. Lyles, in speaking with the NCAA, gave his personal account of what happened. He was an eyewitness to the events that he spoke about. That is not hearsay. Had Lyles told the NCAA about someone else's experiences, then his testimony would be hearsay. 1st person testimony cannot be hearsay, because the witness is simply giving an account of events as he experienced them. 3rd person testimony is hearsay, because the person giving testimony was not present at the event in question. In court, an eyewitness statement is given for the jury to decide its' veracity. In this case, the NCAA has to decide who to believe.
Again, I just want to clarify what hearsay is. I have always respected Pitino and the Louisville program and do not want to see any of these allegations turn out to be true.
Because you are our arch rival and at the moment are in the middle of a terrible scandal. I'm pretty sure if the shoe were on the other foot, you'd be interested too.
Then, enlighten us counselor...
"Rumor" and "innuendo" do not meet the definition I've presented. Find me the right word...
It is if you try to use it to make your points or arguments with that evidence. You didn't witness what he did, and you're not independently and irrefutably confirming it. You can only quote it as hearsay. Read the definition again.
The bigger issue is that it's the weakest type of evidence. Another person refuting what Lyle said makes it simply he-said he-said which is pretty much inconclusive if viewed objectively...
Why would a fan of an elite basketball program be interested in anything this time of year but a possible NCAA run?
"Elite program", my a$$...
Believe me, I read that definition enough in law school to have nightmares about it. If you or I were the judge in this situation, then your statements would be right. However, the NCAA is the judge, which makes his statements eyewitness testimony, and not hearsay. The reason a statement is hearsay is not because it may not be true, but rather because the finder of fact cannot question the original witness to determine whether to believe the statement. Here, the NCAA has been allowed to directly question Lyle about his personal experience and no one else's, thus making his statement not hearsay.
Regardless, without any hard evidence, it is still a he said-he said situation. It will be up to the NCAA to decide who to believe, and I think without hard evidence, the NCAA will clear Louisville.
Unfortunately, I've been in various situations over the years where I have had to deal with a number of lawyers. And I have NEVER had a lawyer call the type of evidence that's being thrown around in this matter anything but hearsay. Namely because it can't be independently proven or disproven. Were all of the lawyers I have interacted with incompetent, at least on what constitutes hearsay evidence? I doubt it. Are lawyers a little careless referring to hearsay evidence? Perhaps.
But is it a rose by any other name? Sure it is. And that's the point... Because Lyle said it happened doesn't make it so. And his word is no better than Luke Hancock's saying, in effect, I know what went on in Minardi, and that didn't go on. So which guy's right, your honor?
Now, can the NCAA choose to believe whichever guy it wants to? Absolutely. But if the situation is like I described, it has nothing to do with the quality of the evidence. Except for text messages still waiting to be verified, all of this stuff is what I've always heard referred to as "hearsay". You call it what you want if you don't like the word...it doesn't change the quality of the evidence.
And I completely understand why an LPT fan would want to call it something better than hearsay--to try to make it better evidence. That's why your opinion on the subject means next-to-nothing.
Hearsay is not "rumor" or "innuendo" BTW.
And for the record, Pitino mentioned the word "hearsay" at the tip-off dinner today.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Wasn't there a rumor that Lyle wanted money? When coach refused and withdrew his offer I would think he would be upset. Could he not have read all this stuff coming out and decided that this is his chance to get even? We have several people who say nothing like this happened so it is possible, Right?
And without independent proof, it's just one guy's word against another's. If the lawyers in the room don't wanna call it hearsay, let them offer another word for it. Doesn't change the quality of the evidence, which is pretty low.
"Elite program", my a$$...
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