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For the folks in the back: Kenny Payne is not a Louisville legend.

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CardX

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I'm sick of hearing that crap. KP was maybe the 7th best player on the '86 championship team. He averaged under 4 points that season. He'd then play in Pervis' shadow the rest of his collegiate career. KP had a sweet jump shot from 3 point range. That's the only credit I'll give him.

Fans supporting KP: "how you treat a Louisville legend like that?" Because he's not a GD Louisville legend. He's an alum who admittedly said he didn't know how to read when he got to college.

Fire Payne.
 
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CardX said:
I'm sick of hearing that crap. KP was maybe the 7th best player on the '86 championship team. He averaged under 4 points that season. He'd then play in Pervis' shadow the rest of his collegiate career. KP had a sweet jump shot from 3 point range. That's the only credit I'll give him.

Fans supporting KP: "how you treat a Louisville legend like that?" Because he's not a GD Louisville legend. He's an alum who admittedly said he didn't know how to read when he got to college.

Fire Payne.
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I had him at 8th, behind the starters, Kimbro and McSwain.
 
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nccardfan said:
Sorry no way was Payne behind Wall... He was 7th or 8th at worst. On that team, he was only 1 of 4 that got drafted... I don't like how's he is coaching but lets not try to "disown" him as a Cardinal.
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Thx for the unnecessary lecture. I wasnt talking entire career stats just the 86 team. Payne got 3ppg, Wall got 2ppg. Miles apart.
 
Payne gets no special consideration from me. He took the job only because it paid him enough money, and he maybe thought he’d be given the benefit of any doubt.

The only thing he’s fortunate about is that he got a standard contract that assumed at some level he could coach. Thanks to the current administration. And now that contract has U of L in a box. Otherwise, Payne would probably already be gone…
 
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the artist FKA zipp said:
He took the job only because it paid him enough money
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Solid character assassination. How many conversations have you had with him?

He already banked millions in his life not sure why you know it's only a $ grab for him. Nobody does these jobs for free anyway.

If anything, he's proven his priorities aren't exactly aligned with the typical coach that's in it for the pay day. He talks about BS like healing and loving the kids.

He's guilty of being an unqualified coach that doesn't know what the hell he is doing. That's all we can say with certainty.

You're guilty of pushing your personal outlook on life onto Payne. He's probably not wired like you are. He talks about things like honor, self-respect, and caring - foreign concepts to you. No, I'm not insulting you by saying these things - you two are just wired completely differently so I have no idea how you think you got this guy pegged to only be in it for $.

It's just as plausible he took the job because his friends wanted him to do it, and he thought the job was going to be easier than it actually ended up being. He is a touch arrogant which you can relate to yes, and probably thought he'd bring in high end guys and win, save the program kind of thing. He probably sadly thought he could be successful.

He was wrong.
 
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Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
Solid character assassination. How many conversations have you had with him?

He already banked millions in his life not sure why you know it's only a $ grab for him. Nobody does these jobs for free anyway.

If anything, he's proven his priorities aren't exactly aligned with the typical coach that's in it for the pay day. He talks about BS like healing and loving the kids.

He's guilty of being an unqualified coach that doesn't know what the hell he is doing. That's all we can say with certainty.

You're guilty of pushing your personal outlook on life onto Payne. He's probably not wired like you are. He talks about things like honor, self-respect, and caring - foreign concepts to you. No, I'm not insulting you by saying these things - you two are just wired completely differently so I have no idea how you think you got this guy pegged to only be in it for $.

It's just as plausible he took the job because his friends wanted him to do it, and he thought the job was going to be easier than it actually ended up being. He is a touch arrogant which you can relate to yes, and probably thought he'd bring in high end guys and win, save the program kind of thing. He probably sadly thought he could be successful.

He was wrong.
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What kinda discount did we get in the market for a guy with no head coaching experience anywhere? Any evidence we offered Payne more than he agreed to take?

I don’t blame Payne for a minute if he was paid market value for his services. By comparison, Brohm didn’t give us a discount either. (Just talking to us was Brohm’s concession.) But in the same respect, Payne should be evaluated as any other coach would be, not based on his prior history here…
 
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I don’t agree bashing the man whom seems to be about all the right things in life. I am totally OK bashing his coaching and the results. He gets paid to win games and to produce an entertaining product. He has failed.

I don’t think KP survives so the next question is what’s next? I think something has change over the last 8-9 years with recruiting. No one in the basketball world is pushing elite players to Louisville. Look if KP and all his contacts don’t help him something is wrong. It is just off people that mattered wanted him to have the job then why not funnel him players? Mack had the same problem. We have to assume we are no longer a destination place for the elite players because this isn’t a small sample size.

The next coach has to be a legit coach that has won with less. Barnes-Wright-Pitino-Bennett type of coach. They have to be able to recruit but coaching has to be top notch because elite players aren’t coming here.
 
Thecycle27 said:
I don’t agree bashing the man whom seems to be about all the right things in life. I am totally OK bashing his coaching and the results. He gets paid to win games and to produce an entertaining product. He has failed.

I don’t think KP survives so the next question is what’s next? I think something has change over the last 8-9 years with recruiting. No one in the basketball world is pushing elite players to Louisville. Look if KP and all his contacts don’t help him something is wrong. It is just off people that mattered wanted him to have the job then why not funnel him players? Mack had the same problem. We have to assume we are no longer a destination place for the elite players because this isn’t a small sample size.

The next coach has to be a legit coach that has won with less. Barnes-Wright-Pitino-Bennett type of coach. They have to be able to recruit but coaching has to be top notch because elite players aren’t coming here.
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I definitely agree 100% with your 1st paragraph and I don't understand "fans" wanting to bash his playing career as a U of L player. There's not many who can claim a NC as a former player regardless of what role he might have played.
 
I definitely agree that it’s wrong to “bash” a player for his playing career, but it’s not wrong to point out that he was not a Louisville great. He was just a very good outside shooter.
 
thing i remember after the 86 title game is that we were pre-season #1 to start the year (we finished 3rd in the final '86 poll which was a joke since we won) and we went to the great alaska shootout, which was a top tourney at the time, and lost all three games. we sucked that entire year. kp was on that team.
 
glassmanJ said:
thing i remember after the 86 title game is that we were pre-season #1 to start the year (we finished 3rd in the final '86 poll which was a joke since we won) and we went to the great alaska shootout, which was a top tourney at the time, and lost all three games. we sucked that entire year. kp was on that team.
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Despite winning the Metro Conference regular season title, that 86-87 squad would miss the NCAAT. Denny then told the NIT to shove it. Cards went 18-14.
 
Not sure how to define a legend. Is Kyle Kuric a Louisville Legend? He and KP have very similar stats (although KP was a NBA 1st round pick).
 
Knucklehank1 said:
Not sure how to define a legend. Is Kyle Kuric a Louisville Legend? He and KP have very similar stats (although KP was a NBA 1st round pick).
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Kyle had an unforgettable performance in the last game at Freedom Hall as an unheralded sophomore against #1 Syracuse. Plus had a "Korner" named after him. Can't forget his dunk at Notre Dame that folks still talk about. He is/was a beloved player. If it were up to me, yes, a legend. Can he coach?
 
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My little sister went to wku and got a couple of student tickets to see UL play so I went down for a visit. Holden had the nastiest dunk I've ever seen in person. Can still hear it in my sleep sometimes. He's got my vote!
 
Payne is 59th on UofL all time scoring list right ahead of Luke Whitehead, Alvin Sims, Wayne Blackshear, Ellis Myles amongst others.
 
Knucklehank1 said:
What about Alvin Sims? Legend or not?
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Definitely. At least IMHO. Would you want to be on the baseline when he was coming full steam? And while we all remember his highlight dunks, most forget what a elite one-on-one defender he was. He finished as the 4th career steals leader, twice had 80+ steals in a season (only started two seasons), and twice almost had double-figure steals in a game.

No disrespect to any of these guys, but calling Payne a "legend" is like saying the same of Luke Whitehead, Jared Swopshire, Wayne Blackshear, and Nate Johnson. Payne was as much a contributor on our 86 title team as Blackshear was on the 13 title. Being a deep rotational freshman player on a great team doesn't earn you "Legend" status.
 
KingHenry_X said:
Definitely. At least IMHO. Would you want to be on the baseline when he was coming full steam? And while we all remember his highlight dunks, most forget what a elite one-on-one defender he was. He finished as the 4th career steals leader, twice had 80+ steals in a season (only started two seasons), and twice almost had double-figure steals in a game.

No disrespect to any of these guys, but calling Payne a "legend" is like saying the same of Luke Whitehead, Jared Swopshire, Wayne Blackshear, and Nate Johnson. Payne was as much a contributor on our 86 title team as Blackshear was on the 13 title. Being a deep rotational freshman player on a great team doesn't earn you "Legend" status.
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I was surprised Payne was 59th on all time scoring list. Would’ve thought he was higher especially given that he was a wing and a first rounder
 
Knucklehank1 said:
I was surprised Payne was 59th on all time scoring list. Would’ve thought he was higher especially given that he was a wing and a first rounder
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I was younger during Payne's playing days (early adolescence), so I wasn't exactly fanatical... but I just recall him as a good contributor who had a good senior year. During his time, my favorite player was LaBradford Smith, followed by Pervis and then Felton then Tony Kimbro. TBH, I just remember his name more than I remember his game.
 
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nccardfan said:
How many are a NC?
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Dude, come on. Payne was freshman rotational player who didn't really affect the outcome of any game in 86. Wayne Blackshear is very comparable, yet was even more of a contributor on the 2013 team than Payne was in 86. Wayne Blackshear is forever a Cardinal, and a national champion, but is he a "Legend"? Because that is what is at question here: "Legend" status. Just being on the roster during a championship year doesn't make you a Legend.
 
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For those of us old enough to recall his playing days...

Payne was highly recruited in a highly regarded recruiting class. He was a good, well behaved kid and a good athlete primarily known for his shooting. But he was probably average in most other phases of the game, and that limited his contributions to the team and his career accomplishments.

His demeanor was friendly but passive. As much as anything, that IMO is what limits him now. He's a players' coach as far as personality which may not be what this team needs most. And of course, what he actually knows about coaching is TBD...
 
CardX said:
Despite winning the Metro Conference regular season title, that 86-87 squad would miss the NCAAT. Denny then told the NIT to shove it. Cards went 18-14.
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That team grossly underperformed, Herb Crook, Tony Kimbro, and even Pervis to a certain extent mailed it in that season (Maybe Denny as well). Pretty sure LaBradford was a freshman that year and was billed as the 2nd coming but it didn't materialize that season.. That team had enough returning talent to make another run just didn't happen..
 
Cardiac Red said:
That team grossly underperformed, Herb Crook, Tony Kimbro, and even Pervis to a certain extent mailed it in that season (Maybe Denny as well). Pretty sure LaBradford was a freshman that year and was billed as the 2nd coming but it didn't materialize that season.. That team had enough returning talent to make another run just didn't happen..
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The loss of impactful seniors (Milt, Billy, Jeff) hurt.
 
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Sadly we aren't in 1986, etc. Although he might not have been a legend as a player he has definitely obtained legendary status as a bad coach. But hey, making millions to be awful and to get paid to leave on top of it is legendary in and of itself. Where do I sign up?
 
Legend is reserved for players that were the best player on the team that won titles or turned out to be great pro’s.

Griffith, Unseld, Smith and Mitchell come to mind. Ellison is a legend for his freshman year. Anytime you say a guys name you should be able immediately say yeah that guy was a dude. Payne was like others were on legendary teams. It is kind of the beauty of the Louisville program they had really good players but very few legendary guys.
 
Thecycle27 said:
Legend is reserved for players that were the best player on the team that won titles or turned out to be great pro’s.

Griffith, Unseld, Smith and Mitchell come to mind. Ellison is a legend for his freshman year. Anytime you say a guys name you should be able immediately say yeah that guy was a dude. Payne was like others were on legendary teams. It is kind of the beauty of the Louisville program they had really good players but very few legendary guys.
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DeJuan Wheat is a Legend. Who can argue that? No title, not much of a pro.
 
Wiley Brown's thumb was legendary. Henderson's 3s vs Wichita St were too.

Payne was real good his last couple of seasons and got drafted. Good career. Sweet jumper.
 
Kenny is a lot of goods things, but he is neither a UL legend, nor is he a good basketball coach.
 
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