Do You Think Denny Crum Is Underrated Among Great Coaches?

[shadow force]

I'm talking all time career. You know you always hear certain names when it comes to listing the great college basketball coaches- K, Wooden, Knight etc. I feel like Denny doesn't get his due more often than not even though he had a great coaching career. No matter what, I know he is a class act all the way.

Where would you rank him all time right now?

For reference his career coaching stats:

Born: March 2, 1937
Alma Mater: UCLA (1958)

Career Record (major schools): 30 Years, 675-295, .696 W-L%
School: Louisville (675-295)
Official NCAA Record: 675-295, .696 W-L%

Conference Champion: 15 Times (Reg. Seas.), 11 Times (Tourn.)

NCAA Tournament: 23 Years (42-23), 6 Final Fours, 2 Championships
NCAA Champion: 1980 and 1986

 

[Cue Card]

Denny is probably a better person than coach, and that's saying something since he's a HOF coach. He took a program over that was on solid ground with John Dromo and took it to the next level. Peck Hickman set the table for Dromo, but then Dromo developed health issues that forced him to retire. That's why Denny got the call and he made the most of it. I always thought he would go back to UCLA eventually, but when that call came, he turned it down and stayed at UofL. That's why he's in the HOF. He made UofL HIS legacy. Things would likely be much different today had he chose to follow John Wooden at UCLA. I'm glad he chose his own path.

 

[CardFanBudMan]

This is a good question and I tend to agree with you, but we are biased. I think his image was tarnished because he held on too long. There are several guys to win 2 or more championships. I do not see how you can put him behind anyone who won only one NC. That is what it is all about. So, I have this in order: Wooden, Krzyzewski, Smith, Rupp, Knight, Calhoun, Pitino, Crum, Donovan, Williams. I am sure I left someone out.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I think he is. There's a snobbish, elitist fraternity out there and neither Louisville or Denny Crum really broke through that whole public perception thing. There's a perception through local rivals and nationally that just don't put Denny and/or Louisville where they belong. It may simply have something to do with conference hopping, the athletic department has had to fight for everything it's gotten.

That said, I don't think Denny cares and most of our fans don't either. We know Denny was a legend, for most that's all that matters. But good topic for sure!

Good point about maybe hanging on too long, or not having great success towards the end too. Maybe if he could have had just one last great team, and hit the road shortly after that, he would have left a more memorable mark.

 

[REDFISTFURY3]

Denny doesn't get the same hype as other coaches due to lack of NBA star talent Dean has MJ,Worthy etc Knight doesn't have NBA stars either but his personality is what people are drawn too.

 

[OmegaCard]

60 minutes killed his legacy to some extent. I thought he did very well but they spun it for their agenda. Kind of like how they want to protect your health but then advertise smoking to the youth. It didn't matter his players were making more money than any college grad could imagine, it suddenly became all about graduation rates.

He is a class act all the way. He belong to the same country club as my parents and everyone loved him. Always friendly and polite even when bothered having dinner. I'd take Denny over coach K any and every day.

 

[J-Rye_UL]

To be mentioned as one of the greatest of all time, you have to adapt to the game as it changes. Denny has an incredible coaching resume, but he didn't adapt. If he had continued his success into the 90's, there's no doubt he'd be up there with Coach K. I love seeing how Pitino has been changing his approach the last few years. Defense has always been his staple, but the evolution of his recruiting, pressing, and offensive attack are always in flux. I like it, even if the offense is painful to watch at times. He hasn't become too set in his ways, and it's why I think he'll still be a top coach through the rest of his career.

 

[OmegaCard]

Didn't/couldn't adapt? Do you guys really believe this crap? Go google Denny Crum 60 Minutes. I'm not sure if it's out there but it's worth a look if you haven't seen it.

 

[J-Rye_UL]

Didn't/couldn't adapt? Do you guys really believe this crap? Go google Denny Crum 60 Minutes. I'm not sure if it's out there but it's worth a look if you haven't seen it.

Instead of taking your standard approach of flaming and hyperbole, why don't you provide some evidence to prove me wrong. I'm all for a good discussion if we can talk like adults.

 

[OmegaCard]

Instead of taking your standard approach of flaming and hyperbole, why don't you provide some evidence to prove me wrong. I'm all for a good discussion if we can talk like adults.

Hyperbole? Like saying a HOF coach couldn't adapt to the surrounding game? Really guy? You're talking about one of the greatest coaches to coach the game. If anything he brought the game into the modern era. Dunking was a new thing! --Doctors of Dunk. Going after inner city prospects! Minority coaches!

You were only 6 when CBS came to town with the intention of taking the most successful program of the dunking era down. A lot of folks thought it was racially charged. Who knows how many more titles he would have won if not for that interview.

Denny did more for the game than Coach K ever dreamed of doing.

I don't think you're capable of a good discussion due to your arrogant ignorance.

 

[OmegaCard]

Kind of funny this thread. ESPN praises Cal down the road these days, yet CBS crucified Denny for doing the same thing 25 years earlier. --He took inner city kids and placed them in the pros. It wasn't his job to graduate them, it was his job to place them in the pros.

ESPN should do a nice piece on Denny. His influence on the game is unrivaled.

 

[OneEarWonder]

Hyperbole? ... Who knows how many more titles he would have won if not for that interview.

Perfect example of Hyperbole. I love Crum... I think he's a better person than coach (which is saying a lot). I think he had his time, but the game passed him by in the end.

As for how many titles... WHEN was the interview? 1990? 4 years after his last NCAA title and in the mist of a downturn (that horrible 90-91 season).... can't blame 60 minutes for that. 8 of his last 11 years had double digit loses.

Denny did more for the game than Coach K ever dreamed of doing.... [Crum's] influence on the game is unrivaled...

Put the homer juice down... Crum was a great coach. Wonderful for UL and will always have a place in the HOF and in Louisville. But to say he's done more than K is ridiculous. To say his influence is unrivaled is pure hyperbole.

 

[J-Rye_UL]

Hyperbole? Like saying a HOF coach couldn't adapt to the surrounding game? Really guy? You're talking about one of the greatest coaches to coach the game. If anything he brought the game into the modern era. Dunking was a new thing! --Doctors of Dunk. Going after inner city prospects! Minority coaches!

You were only 6 when CBS came to town with the intention of taking the most successful program of the dunking era down. A lot of folks thought it was racially charged. Who knows how many more titles he would have won if not for that interview.

Denny did more for the game than Coach K ever dreamed of doing.

I don't think you're capable of a good discussion due to your arrogant ignorance.

Coach K has 3 more titles, 6 more Final Fours, and 2 Olympic Gold medals. Please.

As far as Denny adapting:
15 years before the 3pt line - 6 Final Fours, 2 National Titles
15 years after the 3pt line - 0 Final Fours, 0 National Titles

He didn't adapt to the 3pt line. He didn't change his approach to take advantage of the changing rules. Had he continued success into the 90's, then he would likely be on Coach K's level. Despite being only 30, I remember all too well the years that followed Dejuan Wheat. It was painful.

 

[OmegaCard]

Perfect example of Hyperbole. I love Crum... I think he's a better person than coach (which is saying a lot). I think he had his time, but the game passed him by in the end.

As for how many titles... WHEN was the interview? 1990? 4 years after his last NCAA title and in the mist of a downturn (that horrible 90-91 season).... can't blame 60 minutes for that. 8 of his last 11 years had double digit loses.

Put the homer juice down... Crum was a great coach. Wonderful for UL and will always have a place in the HOF and in Louisville. But to say he's done more than K is ridiculous. To say his influence is unrivaled is pure hyperbole.

If you knew anything about the program, you'd know we lost Allan Houston in 1989 because his dad took the job at Tennessee? Factor in the CBS interview and yeah...the program took a huge hit.

 

[OmegaCard]

Coach K has 3 more titles, 6 more Final Fours, and 2 Olympic Gold medals. Please.

As far as Denny adapting:
15 years before the 3pt line - 6 Final Fours, 2 National Titles
15 years after the 3pt line - 0 Final Fours, 0 National Titles

He didn't adapt to the 3pt line. He didn't change his approach to take advantage of the changing rules. Had he continued success into the 90's, then he would likely be on Coach K's level. Despite being only 30, I remember all too well the years that followed Dejuan Wheat. It was painful.

He was recruiting big men..and doing a great job at it. Wheat is either first or second in 3's.
Supposed Louisville fans in love with coach K. These new generation fans seem to bat both ways.

 

[OneEarWonder]

If you knew anything about the program, you'd know we lost Allan Houston in 1989 because his dad took the job at Tennessee? Factor in the CBS interview and yeah...the program took a huge hit.

Yes, UL missed out on Houston... but to put the season on him, when he never dressed for UL, you're grasping at straws. I think you are putting too much stock in the 60 Minutes piece...

 

[OmegaCard]

Yes, UL missed out on Houston... but to put the season on him, when he never dressed for UL, you're grasping at straws. I think you are putting too much stock in the 60 Minutes piece...

Rumors back then were they only hired Wade to get Allan after his senior year. Allan grew up around the program and probably wishes he would have been able to play for the cards. And he could shoot the 3. I don't remember the specifics but I heard Denny was caught off guard by it..Pretty hard to find a quick replacement for that kind of talent. So he would have been a game changer in 90 and 91.

Has CBS ever tried to blind side Coach K on camera about his program? No!

See, Denny and UofL back then represented inner city players. And back then there was a lot more racism. Whereas IU, Duke, UK were more balanced teams . I remember a lot of resentment towards dunking because it was considered mostly an African American thing. Denny took it and ran with it. He knew it was the future of the game...plus he was always into high percentage shots.

Think what you want, but he did more for the game and minorities than people give him credit for .... Don't expect all the dookies at ESPN to give him credit though.

 

[OneEarWonder]

Think what you want, but he did more for the game and minorities than people give him credit for

I agree with you on this point. Crum was great for the school, program, and basketball in general. To say his is unparalleled or unrivaled or no one has done more... that I take exception with.

Great coach... but I would not put him as one of the greatest. But an even better person... and I think he would take that any day.

 

[Louisville JD]

Used to be a weekly viewer of 60 minutes since the show 1st started, but have NEVER watched that show since Denny's interview. Talk about kahonas, Denny answered those questions truthfully and made the point that although UofL graduation rate was low, his players made lots more money than the average college grad by playing in the NBA or other FOREIGN professional leagues and he championed the idea of his players coming back in the off season or after their pro career to earn a degree. But 60 minutes didn't buy it and made Denny and the program look bad when really he always had the best interests of his players at heart. A hatchet job of the worst kind. So I learned a valuable lesson. Never blindly trust a media source ever again.
As far as Denny overall, he's the reason a guy from eastern PA loves the Cards and not Nova, UConn, etc. his 1st 15 years were game shattering on so many levels and espn needs to do a 30 for 30 show on those 15 years/ Doctors of Dunk birth of a blue blood.

 

[Cue Card]

I was on active duty back then and was overseas. I never have seen that interview but from what everyone is saying, CBS went after him for not graduating players. That was one of his shortcomings as a teacher of the game I guess although it was a different time back then. He didn't babysit the players and expected them to do the right thing. If they didn't graduate, it was on them.

 

[OneEarWonder]

I found this interesting clip, which should sum it up.

 

[CardFanBudMan]

60 minutes killed his legacy to some extent. I thought he did very well but they spun it for their agenda. Kind of like how they want to protect your health but then advertise smoking to the youth. It didn't matter his players were making more money than any college grad could imagine, it suddenly became all about graduation rates.

He is a class act all the way. He belong to the same country club as my parents and everyone loved him. Always friendly and polite even when bothered having dinner. I'd take Denny over coach K any and every day.

This is bullshit. He was a college coach. His players were in college. They needed to go to class and graduate to prepare for the future if basketball was not there. This is a total excuse for Denny not doing his job in a thorough manner and it only got worse in the 90's when he stopped recruiting, eventually turned practice over to his assistants, and only really applied himself in games. If Denny took his players' academics seriously no one would be asking whatever happened to Bobby Turner, Tony Kimbro, Jerome Harmon, etc.

I loved Denny and what he did for us. However, his last ten years left a real bad taste in my mouth. It could have been different had he remained driven. His legacy good and bad is on him, alone.

 

[BooneCo_Card]

Rumors back then were they only hired Wade to get Allan after his senior year. Allan grew up around the program and probably wishes he would have been able to play for the cards. And he could shoot the 3. I don't remember the specifics but I heard Denny was caught off guard by it..Pretty hard to find a quick replacement for that kind of talent. So he would have been a game changer in 90 and 91.

Has CBS ever tried to blind side Coach K on camera about his program? No!

See, Denny and UofL back then represented inner city players. And back then there was a lot more racism. Whereas IU, Duke, UK were more balanced teams . I remember a lot of resentment towards dunking because it was considered mostly an African American thing. Denny took it and ran with it. He knew it was the future of the game...plus he was always into high percentage shots.

Think what you want, but he did more for the game and minorities than people give him credit for .... Don't expect all the dookies at ESPN to give him credit though.

I'm with you, Omega. We lived through it. The youngsters can only look at the record books. Few, if any of them, can grasp the impact of 60 Minutes B4 cable exploded. It was THE show on Sunday evenings. Besides, CBS already had a hard on for UofL after having to fire Tom Brookshier for his racially tinged comments concerning the collective IQ of the Cards during an NFL broadcast. Denny's 1st big mistake was the 60 Minutes interview.

His second was the hiring of Larry Gay upon Wade's departure. He played and coached under Hugh Durham who was always either coming off probation or going on probation. We never had NCAA trouble until Larry got here. Tony Yates should have been the hire.

Third was the school's decision to remain in the Metro (and into obscurity) while UC and Memphis State went to the Great Midwest. Granted, we were all reunited in the relative obscurity of CUSA, but it got our name out of circulation at the highest levels.

Don't forget all of the unknown black players from the rural south that Denny and Wade brought in that were hidden gems. Derek, Wiley, Charles Jones, et al.

One of the worst memories I have of Denny came in the loss to Gonzaga in the tourney. Late in the game, we need a score and call a timeout. Nobody was better than running something to get a score than Denny. He was going over what to run with the team while star senior Nate Johnson appeared to blatantly disregard what was going on in the huddle.

People underestimate the loss of Allan and Wade. My daughter had the opportunity to meet Allan at a church function where she lives and introduced herself as a Card fan growing up rooting for the same players he idolized as a kid. They had a nice chat about various players. He said he had thought 'what if? numerous times over the years if he had gone to Louisville, but had appreciated the opportunity to play for his Dad and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Back to the OP. Denny is far under-rated as a HOF coach.

 

[J-Rye_UL]

He was recruiting big men..and doing a great job at it. Wheat is either first or second in 3's.
Supposed Louisville fans in love with coach K. These new generation fans seem to bat both ways.

I can't speak for other "new generation fans", but I put stock into results more than nostalgia. Coach K is the best there is of the last 50 years. Results speak for themselves. His character on and off the court only confirms what I believe about K.

For the record, Wheat is one of my all time favorites. He's the player I grew up idolizing and imitating.

I remember a lot of resentment towards dunking because it was considered mostly an African American thing. Denny took it and ran with it. He knew it was the future of the game...plus he was always into high percentage shots.

Think what you want, but he did more for the game and minorities than people give him credit for

This much we can agree on. What I love most about Denny is his ability out of timeouts and his willingness to post up guards. I've been screaming for Pitino to post up Blackshear against smaller guards for 4 years, but we rarely saw it.

 

[OmegaCard]

I was on active duty back then and was overseas. I never have seen that interview but from what everyone is saying, CBS went after him for not graduating players. That was one of his shortcomings as a teacher of the game I guess although it was a different time back then. He didn't babysit the players and expected them to do the right thing. If they didn't graduate, it was on them.

It's been a long time ago. Brief summary: They mislead the University as to what the piece was on. And you could tell pretty quickly where this piece was going. It was awkward but Cool hand Luke held his ground. I believe he said something like academics wasn't his job but rather coaching. His job was to put his kids in the pros. His kids made lots of money overseas. Those who remember more...didn't Denny get up pissed?

I searched for it but it's not out there. While searching I found an interview were Nanz asks Denny about being critical of the 1987 NCAA selection committee. I don't remember it but apparently it got some feathers ruffled. That was Denny though, straight shooter.

We had a lot of NCAA problems in the 90's.