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Your coach that followed Bobby Petrino 1.0?

SchmidtyNole

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Not to bring up a sore subject among Cards fans. But I am curious: What was Steve Kragthorpe's undoing at Louisville? Obviously, it's a moot point because Strong got your program back on track and Petrino has continued the upward trajectory. But I've always wondered what Kragthorpe did at Louisville that didn't work and eroded what Petrino had built in his first Louisville stint.
 
Lack of coaching ability is the obvious answer. His team's were unprepared and undisciplined. He made no adjustments and his play calling was abysmal + he couldn't recruit. The first red flag for me was when he said at his first presser that he wasn't going to recruit Florida heavily anymore- Texas would be his primary target. The next was when Stevie got loose. Why are you not in a prevent defense with 40 seconds left is beyond me. He then said that no opposing WR would get that wide open again. Darn if it didn't happen again on the first play the next week. For a clue of his incompetence just look at the coach of the school down the road. His team is never prepared but it's always some one elses fault. I almost feel sorry for them because it sucks to see your that your team has some talent but the coaching is horrible. As Yogi Berra said " It's deja vu all over again."
 
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Not to bring up a sore subject among Cards fans. But I am curious: What was Steve Kragthorpe's undoing at Louisville? Obviously, it's a moot point because Strong got your program back on track and Petrino has continued the upward trajectory. But I've always wondered what Kragthorpe did at Louisville that didn't work and eroded what Petrino had built in his first Louisville stint.

He couldn't win...simple as that.
 
Not to bring up a sore subject among Cards fans. But I am curious: What was Steve Kragthorpe's undoing at Louisville? Obviously, it's a moot point because Strong got your program back on track and Petrino has continued the upward trajectory. But I've always wondered what Kragthorpe did at Louisville that didn't work and eroded what Petrino had built in his first Louisville stint.


I can't believe you typed that name onto our board. That's a technical foul, man. Please don't ever do that. He Who Shall Not Be Named will get you there next time. You could still change it, too. ;-)


In answer to your question: everything.
 
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Not to bring up a sore subject among Cards fans. But I am curious: What was Steve Kragthorpe's undoing at Louisville? Obviously, it's a moot point because Strong got your program back on track and Petrino has continued the upward trajectory. But I've always wondered what Kragthorpe did at Louisville that didn't work and eroded what Petrino had built in his first Louisville stint.
My goodness, where to start.

Let's go with this as a prelude of things to come. He was handed the reigns to a program that had just went 12-1 after winning the Orange Bowl. That team was seconds away from playing in the national championship game with most everyone coming back, and he guided that 12-1 Orange Bowl team to a 6-6 record in his first year. He cost Brian Brohm millions. That really was the start to his demise. He never recovered from that debacle of a season, and he never beat the doormat program UofK going 0 for 3.

Unacceptable.
 
My goodness, where to start.

Let's go with this as a prelude of things to come. He was handed the reigns to a program that had just went 12-1 after winning the Orange Bowl. That team was seconds away from playing in the national championship game with most everyone coming back, and he guided that 12-1 Orange Bowl team to a 6-6 record in his first year. He cost Brian Brohm millions. That really was the start to his demise. He never recovered from that debacle of a season, and he never beat the doormat program UofK going 0 for 3.

Unacceptable.
Sounds like that is a perfect example of how coaching can either make or kill a program. I remember your 2006 team was an awesome team and beat ACC Champ Wake Forest badly in the Orange Bowl and finished #6 in the country. Then Kragthorpe takes the same team and goes 6-6. The good thing is that was really just a blip on the radar for Louisville and something they recovered from quickly after then getting Strong and then Petrino again. Also I think Petrino loves it at Louisville and will be there for a long, long time.
 
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K was handed the keys to a tuned-up Mercedes and wrecked it. He was completely over his head as a coach. Looked the part, sounded the part, but couldn't coach a lick.
 
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Not to bring up a sore subject among Cards fans. But I am curious: What was Steve Kragthorpe's undoing at Louisville? Obviously, it's a moot point because Strong got your program back on track and Petrino has continued the upward trajectory. But I've always wondered what Kragthorpe did at Louisville that didn't work and eroded what Petrino had built in his first Louisville stint.
The first item that comes to mind was his do more with less effort attitude. Second, his key assistant coaches did not come to UofL. Lesson, if sounds to good to be true it is false.
 
The Kragthorpe era was a disaster. I agree with Guardman he was in over his head. But I will say this, he was blamed for everything, some he was directly responsible for, some he wasn't, and some criticism was just inaccurate. But the fall was so pronounced, he became the lightning rod for all.

Two of the inaccuracies are mentioned here by Cue Card. Not blaming Cue Card, he's just repeating what many have said, but I feel it to be inaccurate. The two things I'm referring to are:

1) "He cost Brian Brohm millions."
2) "we had virtually everyone returning from a 12-1 Orange Bowl team"

Brian didn't "lose" millions coming back for his senior season. He wasn't going to be a 1st round pick after his Junior year, and there were two big reasons for that. First, he had a shoulder injury that required surgical repair. We saw first hand in Bush what happens to a guy that goes into a draft with an injury and can't go through combine & workouts...he drops. Secondly, he lacked the necessary arm strength to EVER be a 1st round QB. It's reason #1 why he couldn't stick in the league. Contrary to what some seem to remember, he also didn't have a "bad" year his senior season. Our offense was fine in Krag's 1st year. Continued to put up big numbers and was nationally ranked. It was the defense that was abysmal, and exactly why we plummeted to 6-6. Which brings me to #2....

We returned a bunch from that Orange Bowl team....on offense, but we lost a bunch on defense. The guys we lost turned out to be better than we thought, and the guys that returned were perhaps not as good as we hoped. Over the last two seasons we lost what would become some "veteran" pros like Wil Gay, Omobi Okoye, Brandon Johnson, and Elvis Dumervil, who were better than many knew, and a few guys with shorter stints in the league like Nate Harris and Montavius Stanley, among others. We also lost some guys right away through bad luck (ie Peanut), while a few key others went rogue (Council, Spillman, Willie Williams). I can see why young talent like Latarrius Thomas & Anthony Allen abandoned ship, because dysfunction reigned (partly Krag's ineptitude, and partly things out of his control). Coach Cassidy (the DC who was retained from
Petrino's staff) was replacing some significant parts on defense, with guys that had limited experience. We often couldn't even get lined up right, and was often severely gashed. Some may place that at Krag's feet, to some degree, but some of that was simply a big drop off in both talent and experience at some key spots.

At the end of the day, his era was an unmitigated disaster, and he needed to go. But everything wasn't his fault, we fans just like to conveniently make it that way, because it's easier. Regardless what anyone else posts here, that's all I will say on this issue. It's over. Bad memories. Doesn't matter anymore. Moving forward.
 
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We also had a LOT of players who needed to be micro managed, and SK was not a micro manager. Combine that with the other stuff, and there ya go.

CCS came in, micro managed, got some discipline going, coached some guys up, and turned things back around.
 
I can guarantee that I would have never hired him in the first place. I can also guarantee I would have fired him instantly on the spot after the Syracuse game. Brutal, Intense pressure from big-time-money-booster fans began to get very loud with the close of his second season (2008). He absolutely should have been fired at that point.
 
The Kragthorpe era was a disaster. I agree with Guardman he was in over his head. But I will say this, he was blamed for everything, some he was directly responsible for, some he wasn't, and some criticism was just inaccurate. But the fall was so pronounced, he became the lightning rod for all.

Two of the inaccuracies are mentioned here by Cue Card. Not blaming Cue Card, he's just repeating what many have said, but I feel it to be inaccurate. The two things I'm referring to are:

1) "He cost Brian Brohm millions."
2) "we had virtually everyone returning from a 12-1 Orange Bowl team"

Brian didn't "lose" millions coming back for his senior season. He wasn't going to be a 1st round pick after his Junior year, and there were two big reasons for that. First, he had a shoulder injury that required surgical repair. We saw first hand in Bush what happens to a guy that goes into a draft with an injury and can't go through combine & workouts...he drops. Secondly, he lacked the necessary arm strength to EVER be a 1st round QB. It's reason #1 why he couldn't stick in the league. Contrary to what some seem to remember, he also didn't have a "bad" year his senior season. Our offense was fine in Krag's 1st year. Continued to put up big numbers and was nationally ranked. It was the defense that was abysmal, and exactly why we plummeted to 6-6. Which brings me to #2....

We returned a bunch from that Orange Bowl team....on offense, but we lost a bunch on defense. The guys we lost turned out to be better than we thought, and the guys that returned were perhaps not as good as we hoped. Over the last two seasons we lost what would become some "veteran" pros like Wil Gay, Omobi Okoye, Brandon Johnson, and Elvis Dumervil, who were better than many knew, and a few guys with shorter stints in the league like Nate Harris and Montavius Stanley, among others. We also lost some guys right away through bad luck (ie Peanut), while a few key others went rogue (Council, Spillman, Willie Williams). I can see why young talent like Latarrius Thomas & Anthony Allen abandoned ship, because dysfunction reigned (partly Krag's ineptitude, and partly things out of his control). Coach Cassidy (the DC who was retained from
Petrino's staff) was replacing some significant parts on defense, with guys that had limited experience. We often couldn't even get lined up right, and was often severely gashed. Some may place that at Krag's feet, to some degree, but some of that was simply a big drop off in both talent and experience at some key spots.

At the end of the day, his era was an unmitigated disaster, and he needed to go. But everything wasn't his fault, we fans just like to conveniently make it that way, because it's easier. Regardless what anyone else posts here, that's all I will say on this issue. It's over. Bad memories. Doesn't matter anymore. Moving forward.
I think you described that well, AJ.
 
The Kragthorpe era was a disaster. I agree with Guardman he was in over his head. But I will say this, he was blamed for everything, some he was directly responsible for, some he wasn't, and some criticism was just inaccurate. But the fall was so pronounced, he became the lightning rod for all.

Two of the inaccuracies are mentioned here by Cue Card. Not blaming Cue Card, he's just repeating what many have said, but I feel it to be inaccurate. The two things I'm referring to are:

1) "He cost Brian Brohm millions."
2) "we had virtually everyone returning from a 12-1 Orange Bowl team"

Brian didn't "lose" millions coming back for his senior season. He wasn't going to be a 1st round pick after his Junior year, and there were two big reasons for that. First, he had a shoulder injury that required surgical repair. We saw first hand in Bush what happens to a guy that goes into a draft with an injury and can't go through combine & workouts...he drops. Secondly, he lacked the necessary arm strength to EVER be a 1st round QB. It's reason #1 why he couldn't stick in the league. Contrary to what some seem to remember, he also didn't have a "bad" year his senior season. Our offense was fine in Krag's 1st year. Continued to put up big numbers and was nationally ranked. It was the defense that was abysmal, and exactly why we plummeted to 6-6. Which brings me to #2....

We returned a bunch from that Orange Bowl team....on offense, but we lost a bunch on defense. The guys we lost turned out to be better than we thought, and the guys that returned were perhaps not as good as we hoped. Over the last two seasons we lost what would become some "veteran" pros like Wil Gay, Omobi Okoye, Brandon Johnson, and Elvis Dumervil, who were better than many knew, and a few guys with shorter stints in the league like Nate Harris and Montavius Stanley, among others. We also lost some guys right away through bad luck (ie Peanut), while a few key others went rogue (Council, Spillman, Willie Williams). I can see why young talent like Latarrius Thomas & Anthony Allen abandoned ship, because dysfunction reigned (partly Krag's ineptitude, and partly things out of his control). Coach Cassidy (the DC who was retained from
Petrino's staff) was replacing some significant parts on defense, with guys that had limited experience. We often couldn't even get lined up right, and was often severely gashed. Some may place that at Krag's feet, to some degree, but some of that was simply a big drop off in both talent and experience at some key spots.

At the end of the day, his era was an unmitigated disaster, and he needed to go. But everything wasn't his fault, we fans just like to conveniently make it that way, because it's easier. Regardless what anyone else posts here, that's all I will say on this issue. It's over. Bad memories. Doesn't matter anymore. Moving forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Brian Brohm and his misfortunes, and you're correct about the defense losing a lot, but for some reason it wasn't much of a problem year after year until that year regarding losing good players. They were simply replaced by other good players. Should I lay the blame on Petrino for that? Did we give up on Kragthorpe too soon? Did he actually hand over a good team to Strong? All interesting questions.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree about Brian Brohm and his misfortunes, and you're correct about the defense losing a lot, but for some reason it wasn't much of a problem year after year until that year regarding losing good players. They were simply replaced by other good players. Should I lay the blame on Petrino for that? Did we give up on Kragthorpe too soon? Did he actually hand over a good team to Strong? All interesting questions.
No - we did not give up to soon. It was obvious early on that he was in over his head. It didn't take very long for reports to start circulating how much easier practices were under Kragthorpe . And no he did not hand a good team to Charlie Strong. There was some talent but in no way could you say that those players were a team.
 
No - we did not give up to soon. It was obvious early on that he was in over his head. It didn't take very long for reports to start circulating how much easier practices were under Kragthorpe . And no he did not hand a good team to Charlie Strong. There was some talent but in no way could you say that those players were a team.

I CAN at least attest to this. I went to "his" very first practices. It was VERY obvious as soon as I entered the practice field things were VERY different. I was used to Petrino's LOUD, spirited, high intensity practices where there was a lot of coaches screaming instructions and demanding work and effort, in addition to players exhorting each other (along with some spirited trash talk). Not a minute was wasted, with each squad always being coached and drilled. At that first, and subsequent SK practices in the days and years that followed, there was a general milling about by different squads that weren't being coached or drilled at that moment. There was just little spirit, intensity, or sense of urgency. I can't say because I wasn't in the players shoes or heads, but you just didn't get the sense they were being coached, prepared, or urged to "compete". I gave it a pass in the first few practices thinking "okay, it takes times to explain and teach his practice techniques". But, it just never changed over time. It was relaxed. And, to me, THAT was the essential (and ultimately fatal) difference between SK and Petrino. Petrino (and staff) taught and demanded effort, enthusiasm, and compliance...both on the field and off. THAT is why Petrino's players stayed out of trouble, and he has been successful with problem child transfers. He knew how to keep them in line. Maybe Petrino's players didn't/don't love him like a father, but they sure as hell respected and obeyed him. SK didn't have either, and he lost the team from the get go.
 
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I CAN at least attest to this. I went to "his" very first practices. It was VERY obvious as soon as I entered the practice field things were VERY different. I was used to Petrino's LOUD, spirited, high intensity practices where there was a lot of coaches screaming instructions and demanding work and effort, in addition to players exhorting each other (along with some spirited trash talk). Not a minute was wasted, with each squad always being coached and drilled. At that first, and subsequent SK practices in the days and years that followed, there was a general milling about by different squads that weren't being coached or drilled at that moment. There was just little spirit, intensity, or sense of urgency. I can't say because I wasn't in their shoes or heads, but you just didn't get the sense they were being coached, prepared, or urged to "compete". I gave it a pass in the first few practices thinking "okay, it takes times to explain and teach his practice techniques". But, it just never changed over time. It was relaxed. And, to me, THAT was the essential (and ultimately fatal) difference between SK and Petrino. Petrino (and staff) taught and demanded effort, enthusiasm, and compliance...both on the field and off. THAT is why Petrino's players stayed out of trouble, and he has been successful with problem child transfers. He knew how to keep them in line. Maybe Petrino's players didn't/don't love him like a father, but they sure as hell respected and obeyed him. SK didn't have either, and he lost the team from the get go.
That sounds like the last few years of the Bobby Bowden era at FSU. As Bowden aged he became too layed back and wasn't hands on anymore. Part of the coach's responsibilty is to demand excellence from the players and hold them accountable on and off the field. Anytime you get a coach that lets things go it feeds bad habits into the players and spills over to the field on Gameday. But I think a coach letting things go is just the symptom. The real problem is they are in over their heads. In Bowden's case, that happened as he aged.
 
The Kragthorpe era was a disaster. I agree with Guardman he was in over his head. But I will say this, he was blamed for everything, some he was directly responsible for, some he wasn't, and some criticism was just inaccurate. But the fall was so pronounced, he became the lightning rod for all.

Two of the inaccuracies are mentioned here by Cue Card. Not blaming Cue Card, he's just repeating what many have said, but I feel it to be inaccurate. The two things I'm referring to are:

1) "He cost Brian Brohm millions."
2) "we had virtually everyone returning from a 12-1 Orange Bowl team"

Brian didn't "lose" millions coming back for his senior season. He wasn't going to be a 1st round pick after his Junior year, and there were two big reasons for that. First, he had a shoulder injury that required surgical repair. We saw first hand in Bush what happens to a guy that goes into a draft with an injury and can't go through combine & workouts...he drops. Secondly, he lacked the necessary arm strength to EVER be a 1st round QB. It's reason #1 why he couldn't stick in the league. Contrary to what some seem to remember, he also didn't have a "bad" year his senior season. Our offense was fine in Krag's 1st year. Continued to put up big numbers and was nationally ranked. It was the defense that was abysmal, and exactly why we plummeted to 6-6. Which brings me to #2....

We returned a bunch from that Orange Bowl team....on offense, but we lost a bunch on defense. The guys we lost turned out to be better than we thought, and the guys that returned were perhaps not as good as we hoped. Over the last two seasons we lost what would become some "veteran" pros like Wil Gay, Omobi Okoye, Brandon Johnson, and Elvis Dumervil, who were better than many knew, and a few guys with shorter stints in the league like Nate Harris and Montavius Stanley, among others. We also lost some guys right away through bad luck (ie Peanut), while a few key others went rogue (Council, Spillman, Willie Williams). I can see why young talent like Latarrius Thomas & Anthony Allen abandoned ship, because dysfunction reigned (partly Krag's ineptitude, and partly things out of his control). Coach Cassidy (the DC who was retained from
Petrino's staff) was replacing some significant parts on defense, with guys that had limited experience. We often couldn't even get lined up right, and was often severely gashed. Some may place that at Krag's feet, to some degree, but some of that was simply a big drop off in both talent and experience at some key spots.

At the end of the day, his era was an unmitigated disaster, and he needed to go. But everything wasn't his fault, we fans just like to conveniently make it that way, because it's easier. Regardless what anyone else posts here, that's all I will say on this issue. It's over. Bad memories. Doesn't matter anymore. Moving forward.

Good points aj, but I still believe everything was his fault. On top of his ineptitude on the field (Todd Graham was obviously the brains at Tulsa), he sucked off the field. He was going to make men out of boys and do it the right way, but he lost control immediately. Guys stopped going to class and our APR dropped like a rock. There was not one thing that he did right. TJ put too much emphasis on finding a coach who would stay here, instead of finding the best available.
 
Demoralized the team with his hugs and kisses approach. Eerily similar to Ron Cooper.
 
Good points aj, but I still believe everything was his fault.......ineptitude on the field .... sucked off the field.....he lost control immediately........There was not one thing that he did right.

That pretty much sums it up.

steve-kragthorpe-grumpy-180.jpg
 
Not to bring up a sore subject among Cards fans. But I am curious: What was Steve Kragthorpe's undoing at Louisville? Obviously, it's a moot point because Strong got your program back on track and Petrino has continued the upward trajectory. But I've always wondered what Kragthorpe did at Louisville that didn't work and eroded what Petrino had built in his first Louisville stint.

Well, there are a lot of theories and possibilities. Lot's of little things that all added together decimated the program.

First Tom Jurich micromanaged just a bit and Krags didn't resist and demand to do things his own way. I think Jurich wanted to maintain a level of continuity and for the transition to be smooth so he suggested or pushed that several coaches from Petrino's staff stay on instead of the new guy just hiring everyone on his own so you had a mix of about half Petrino coaches and half Krag coaches. Maybe not exactly half/half but close. I didn't work at all.

Petrino is a totalitarian coach and rules with an iron fist. He keeps absolute control over the players and what is going on with the team. Krags was much more laid back and kind of expected the players to do what they were supposed to do without much supervision, kind of like a professional scenario.

Tons of transfers and guys getting kicked off. Basically his coaching style didn't mesh with the players we had.

Recruiting went down. Louisville has always recruited Florida, Georgia and Alabama and Krags didn't really go after those areas hard anymore. We kind of didn't have a recruiting base while he was here. Local Louisville kids he kind of had the attitude they should want to come to Louisville, I don't have to pursue them hard, and during his tenure most of the top players in Louisville went to Kentucky or went out of state.

He just wasn't as good of a coach as Petrino. Anyone who attends practices will tell you how intense, efficient and planned Petrino's practices are, there's not a second wasted. Everyone who watched Krag's practices commented how relaxed and slow paced they were compared to what Petrinio did.

It just never worked and many wanted him gone after just a couple of games because we could see he was going to wreck the program and we wanted to stop things before they were wrecked but he got his standard three years and he wrecked the program.

Up till now that is Tom Jurich's only misfire on a coaching hire. He got John L. Smith, Bobby Petrino twice and Charlie Strong. He's had to make 5 football hires since he's been here. Hopefully now that we are in the ACC, have the expanded stadium, prestige and additional monies we can keep our good coaches around and not have to change coaches every 4-5 years. Howard Schnellenberger was here ten years but since he left we've had six coaches. I think our conference situation will help with that now.
 
The next was when Stevie got loose. Why are you not in a prevent defense with 40 seconds left is beyond me.

To the OP, being a FSU guy, "Stevie getting lose" probably means nothing. I don't know why he's talking to an FSU guy in a way only Cardinal fans could follow. Louisville's first loss under Kragthorpe was against UK. We had beaten them by 31 points the year before and Louisville was up by one point with about 40 seconds left. Louisville had rebounded from a terrible start (the Krag effect) to take a halftime lead and the second half was nip and tuck. Kentucky had the ball around midfield and Andre Woodson threw a homerun ball down the sideline to WR "STEVIE" Johnson to take the lead.

You should remember this UK team, FSU played them in the Music City Bowl when 30 of your players were suspended.
 
To the OP, being a FSU guy, "Stevie getting lose" probably means nothing. I don't know why he's talking to an FSU guy in a way only Cardinal fans could follow. Louisville's first loss under Kragthorpe was against UK. We had beaten them by 31 points the year before and Louisville was up by one point with about 40 seconds left. Louisville had rebounded from a terrible start (the Krag effect) to take a halftime lead and the second half was nip and tuck. Kentucky had the ball around midfield and Andre Woodson threw a homerun ball down the sideline to WR "STEVIE" Johnson to take the lead.

You should remember this UK team, FSU played them in the Music City Bowl when 30 of your players were suspended.
Yep, I remember that team. Kentucky fans like to brag that one of their better teams in their history beat one of our worst teams in our history with Bowden on his last legs and 30 of our players suspended. And they only won by 7. Lol!!
 
Regarding the APR, that was actually one thing that Petrino 1.0 did a crappy job of maintaining. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I definitely recall that our APR was around 965 under John L Smith, and it went down each and every year from 2003 to 2006.

Then Kragthorpe came in and "cleaned house", and the team's GPA wasn't bad during his tenure, but we lost so many players to transfers that the APR dropped even more quickly. Then by the time Strong took over the APR for that transition year (2009-10) was an abysmal 867 (or something close to that), which resulted in the lose of 3 scholarships out of the 2011 recruiting class (ironically, the best class in UofL history).

By the way, the APR under Petrino v2.0 also went down this past year (the 2014-15 school year), which was one thing I was critical of back in May.
 
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Regarding the APR, that was actually one thing that Petrino 1.0 did a crappy job of maintaining. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I definitely recall that our APR was around 965 under John L Smith, and it went down each and every year from 2003 to 2006.

The Kragthorpe came in and "cleaned house", and the team's GPA wasn't bad during his tenure, but we lost so many players to transfers that the APR dropped even more quickly. Then by the time Strong took over the APR for that transition year (2009-10) was an abysmal 867 (or something close to that), which resulted in the lose of 3 scholarships out of the 2011 recruiting class (ironically, the best class in UofL history).

By the way, the APR under Petrino v2.0 also went down this past year (the 2014-15 school year), which was one thing I was critical of back in May.
Let's hope the new Academic Center under the South Terrace helps in that regard. But emphasis by the head coach is crucial.
 
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