WKU-EKU Rivalry...

[zipp]

...As a spinoff of the locked Bilas/UNC/Duke thread--keep the politics OUT of this one--WKU-EKU was mentioned as an example of a rivalry where the teams didn't regularly play. That's a bad example offered by nccardfan...

First of all, they do play regularly again after a few years of not playing when WKU moved up to FBS.

But more importantly, they're again playing for the same reason that U of L and LPT started playing football in the mid 90s. Western needs to fill its arena and stadium. Even with Brohm's success after Petrino, their 5-year average football attendance is around 80% of stadium capacity. And they're averaging only around half of the basketball arena's capacity.

Once upon a time, we needed LPT on our schedule for the $ame rea$on. Now, they COST US millions annually to keep playing. Few things stay the same.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[Rollem Cards]

In the 70's with Jim McDaniels and Co. WKU avg'd around 12k in a 14.5k Diddle Arena. Of course it was packed for the big games.

Now, they've taken many bleachers out, put in "luxury" boxes, and cut seating to around 8k. And can't fill the place.

Arguably, FB has passed BB on the interest scale.

 

[ThroughBlue]

...As a spinoff of the locked Bilas/UNC/Duke thread--keep the politics OUT of this one--WKU-EKU was mentioned as an example of a rivalry where the teams didn't regularly play. That's a bad example offered by nccardfan...

First of all, they do play regularly again after a few years of not playing when WKU moved up to FBS.

But more importantly, they're again playing for the same reason that U of L and LPT started playing football in the mid 90s. Western needs to fill its arena and stadium. Even with Brohm's success after Petrino, their 5-year average football attendance is around 80% of stadium capacity. And they're averaging only around half of the basketball arena's capacity.

Once upon a time, we needed LPT on our schedule for the $ame rea$on. Now, they COST US millions annually to keep playing. Few things stay the same.

"Elite program," my a$$...

Not starting an argument, but other than not having a home game against some small directional school, how does playing Kentucky annually cost you millions? Just about any power five conference team that you schedule is going to require you play a home and home.

 

[nccardfan]

I'm going to pay you a compliment.. you're the only one I know who can dissect an entire statement, find something and twist it to your own stance. Without the context of the previous thread it's easy for you to say I provided a bad example but the whole gist of the my comments was you said there was no rivalry that existed that was not still being played. My point was WKU and Eastern don't play as much as when they were conference rivals in the OVC but they are still rivals because they compete for college students at the state level and athletics play a big part of that. Carry on with your divisiveness. Posters might tolerate you more (I know you don't care) if you simply make your point without trying to tell them they're wrong. They're not.. they just differ from your POV.

 

[ThroughBlue]

I'm going to pay you a compliment.. you're the only one I know who can dissect an entire statement, find something and twist it to your own stance. Without the context of the previous thread it's easy for you to say I provided a bad example but the whole gist of the my comments was you said there was no rivalry that existed that was still being played. My point was WKU and Eastern don't play as much as when they were conference rivals in the OVC but they are still rivals because they compete for college students at the state level and athletics play a big part of that. Carry on with your divisiveness. Posters might tolerate you more (I know you don't care) if you simply make your point without trying to tell them they're wrong. They're not.. they just differ from your POV.

He knows he is in the vast minority of not wanting to play Kentucky in ANY sport because he says it hurts Louisville athletics like we (Kentucky) are some mid major directional school.

 

[Cue Card]

I'm going to pay you a compliment.. you're the only one I know who can dissect an entire statement, find something and twist it to your own stance. Without the context of the previous thread it's easy for you to say I provided a bad example but the whole gist of the my comments was you said there was no rivalry that existed that was not still being played. My point was WKU and Eastern don't play as much as when they were conference rivals in the OVC but they are still rivals because they compete for college students at the state level and athletics play a big part of that. Carry on with your divisiveness. Posters might tolerate you more (I know you don't care) if you simply make your point without trying to tell them they're wrong. They're not.. they just differ from your POV.

There are others too. Texas no longer plays Texas A&M yet they are bitter in-state rivals. They haven't played each other since 2011-2012.

 

[zipp]

Not starting an argument, but other than not having a home game against some small directional school, how does playing Kentucky annually cost you millions? Just about any power five conference team that you schedule is going to require you play a home and home.

You answered your own question... I've been saying that NO team should be on the schedule that isn't mandated--an ACC game or one dictated by the conference, e.g., the ACC-Big Ten Challenge--or a game that isn't principally driven by money. There are no other rational bases for U of L to schedule teams in 2017.

With that reasoning, scheduling LPT in football and basketball means U of L loses a home game in each sport every other year. Or one per year on average. By my estimates, a home game in either sport is worth $2-3 million to U of L in lost revenue. This is the very reason the big schools schedule so many cupcakes nowadays. Sure it's to get wins, but Alabama and Ohio State aren't worried about beating other teams. Even LPT with its crap basketball schedule STILL brings in no-return cupcakes in the month of Dec. We all want money.

And esp. in basketball, U of L and the arena need all of the home games that U of L can muster for the same reason. I can envision Jurich eventually agreeing to pony up a couple million to keep Bailout Arena afloat awhile longer. Better if that comes from an additional home game than the Title IX sports.

Jim Host Who-Cares-About-Girls'-Sports? Arena

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[zipp]

He knows he is in the vast minority of not wanting to play Kentucky in ANY sport because he says it hurts Louisville athletics like we (Kentucky) are some mid major directional school.

That's about the level of respect your school and fanbase hold with most U of L fans. Excuse me for being that messenger.

While it does smack of "mid major directional school," I would agree that the series in football and basketball should continue if the majority of games were played in Louisville.

I'd also remind you that, absent LPT, that's exactly the type of basketball conference you play in. And you can't play yourself.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[zipp]

There are others too. Texas no longer plays Texas A&M yet they are bitter in-state rivals. They haven't played each other since 2011-2012.

Sentimentalists will make that argument about bygone rivalries. They confuse dislike or hate with "rival".

The classic definition of "rival" is "a person who is competing for the same object or goal as another, or who tries to equal or outdo another; competitor." I'm not sure how you fulfill that without actually competing ON the field or court. It's a form of mind game otherwise.

Michigan-Notre Dame, Pitt-WVU, Louisville-Memphis State are all good rivalries from the past. They can go as easily as they come. But to be a rivalry, they have to be played or most will be forgotten.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[Cue Card]

Sentimentalists will make that argument about bygone rivalries. They confuse dislike or hate with "rival".

The classic definition of "rival" is "a person who is competing for the same object or goal as another, or who tries to equal or outdo another; competitor." I'm not sure how you fulfill that without actually competing ON the field or court. It's a form of mind game otherwise.

Michigan-Notre Dame, Pitt-WVU, Louisville-Memphis State are all good rivalries from the past. They can go as easily as they come. But to be a rivalry, they have to be played or most will be forgotten.

"Elite program," my a$$...

Maybe I missed something. Were you not saying a rival can't be a rival without them playing? If that wasn't the case, then what about Cincinnati and Xavier? They despise each other and they play every year. Most years it's pure war instead of a game.

UofK is UofL's instate rival zipp. In spite of your notable objections to that fact, it's still a fact whether they play or not.

 

[ThroughBlue]

That's about the level of respect your school and fanbase hold with most U of L fans. Excuse me for being that messenger.

While it does smack of "mid major directional school," I would agree that the series in football and basketball should continue if the majority of games were played in Louisville.

I'd also remind you that, absent LPT, that's exactly the type of basketball conference you play in. And you can't play yourself.

"Elite program," my a$$...

And I feel it should only continue if it's played the majority of the time in Lexington. See how that works? My opinion is worth the same as yours and holds the same amount of weight (0)

 

[zipp]

Maybe I missed something. Were you not saying a rival can't be a rival without them playing? If that wasn't the case, then what about Cincinnati and Xavier? They despise each other and they play every year. Most years it's pure war instead of a game.

UofK is UofL's instate rival zipp. In spite of your notable objections to that fact, it's still a fact whether they play or not.

The issue started with nccardfan's remark that U of L and LPT have long been rivals. And I stated in response that the basketball series started in 1983, and the football series in 1994. That's a fledgling rivalry even within the State. Eastern and Western--that nc brings up--have played each other in football more than 80 times dating back to 1914. Trinity and St. X have played the same number of times and regularly since the 1950s. There are HIGH SCHOOL rivalries in this State that outdistance what you guys think you have with LPT.

But the bottom line is you have to play the games to be rivals. In the mid-1900s and long before the teams played, LPT didn't think of Louisville as anything more than "little brother" which some of you can't get past. We weren't their rival simply because our fans looked up to their big brother; LPT fans would have scoffed at that and rightly so. Now, they're becoming our little brother if U of L will kindly LET them. As the slappy in this thread says, they're evolving into a directional school on our otherwise bigtime schedule. Just let it happen.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[zipp]

And I feel it should only continue if it's played the majority of the time in Lexington. See how that works? My opinion is worth the same as yours and holds the same amount of weight (0)

Then the game won't be played. I obviously have no problem with that.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[Cue Card]

The issue started with nccardfan's remark that U of L and LPT have long been rivals. And I stated in response that the basketball series started in 1983, and the football series in 1994. That's a fledgling rivalry even within the State. Eastern and Western--that nc brings up--have played each other in football more than 80 times dating back to 1914. Trinity and St. X have played the same number of times and regularly since the 1950s. There are HIGH SCHOOL rivalries in this State that outdistance what you guys think you have with LPT.

But the bottom line is you have to play the games to be rivals. In the mid-1900s and long before the teams played, LPT didn't think of Louisville as anything more than "little brother" which some of you can't get past. We weren't their rival simply because our fans looked up to their big brother; LPT fans would have scoffed at that and rightly so. Now, they're becoming our little brother if U of L will kindly LET them. As the slappy in this thread says, they're evolving into a directional school on our otherwise bigtime schedule. Just let it happen.

"Elite program," my a$$...

Nor my choice to 'just let it happen'.

It's not your choice either.

 

[zipp]

Nor my choice to 'just let it happen'.

It's not your choice either.

It's no one's choice above all others. But a movement starts when enough people ask or are willing to consider the question. Kinda like the arena, guess who will keep asking it?



People once thought I was insane on that topic too. And BTW, the rivalry topic may diminish if people besides me stop bringing up the subject (e.g., Bilas/UNC/Duke). Despite what some think, I don't work in a vacuum.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[Majestic Red]

Now, they've taken many bleachers out, put in "luxury" boxes, and cut seating to around 8k. And can't fill the place.

And it's sad. I attended the senior night game this past Saturday, and the attendance was around 4,800--which was a season high according to the jumbo board. Granted, they've had a down year.

 

[nccardfan]

The issue started with nccardfan's remark that U of L and LPT have long been rivals. And I stated in response that the basketball series started in 1983, and the football series in 1994. That's a fledgling rivalry even within the State. Eastern and Western--that nc brings up--have played each other in football more than 80 times dating back to 1914. Trinity and St. X have played the same number of times and regularly since the 1950s. There are HIGH SCHOOL rivalries in this State that outdistance what you guys think you have with LPT.

But the bottom line is you have to play the games to be rivals. In the mid-1900s and long before the teams played, LPT didn't think of Louisville as anything more than "little brother" which some of you can't get past. We weren't their rival simply because our fans looked up to their big brother; LPT fans would have scoffed at that and rightly so. Now, they're becoming our little brother if U of L will kindly LET them. As the slappy in this thread says, they're evolving into a directional school on our otherwise bigtime schedule. Just let it happen.

"Elite program," my a$$...

Better check your facts, U of L started playing UK In football in 1912 and played 6 times between 1912 and 1926. Hmm.. that could qualify as a start to a rivalry. Basketball started a year later in 1913 and played 9 times between 1913 and 1922. Hmm... so they were playing each other in both basketball and football at the same time. Sounds like it was a rivalry or at least the start of one.

 

[Cue Card]

Better check your facts, U of L started playing UK In football in 1912 and played 6 times between 1912 and 1926. Hmm.. that could qualify as a start to a rivalry. Basketball started a year later in 1913 and played 9 times between 1913 and 1922. Hmm... so they were playing each other in both basketball and football at the same time. Sounds like it was a rivalry or at least the start of one.

Ouch.

 

[zipp]

Better check your facts, U of L started playing UK In football in 1912 and played 6 times between 1912 and 1926. Hmm.. that could qualify as a start to a rivalry. Basketball started a year later in 1913 and played 9 times between 1913 and 1922. Hmm... so they were playing each other in both basketball and football at the same time. Sounds like it was a rivalry or at least the start of one.

Yeah, you can always run into a given team in the NCAA tournament, a bowl game, whatever. What some of you guys read past in posts are words like REGULARLY. There's nothing regular about six games that were played a century ago, but nice try. Reminds me of slappies counting things like SEC championships.

No true rivalry doesn't get played regularly. Find me one otherwise. The WKU-EKU example was already shot down. And it's usually one school wanting to play the other and the other not reciprocating, which at best makes it a pathetic rivalry or an excuse for one. Yours with LPT is a couple decades old, which gives it almost no history. Congrats.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[zipp]

And it's sad. I attended the senior night game this past Saturday, and the attendance was around 4,800--which was a season high according to the jumbo board. Granted, they've had a down year.

Which is why EKU was rekindled. We'd be trying to schedule Cincy and Memphis if that shoe was on our foot.

(It may yet be with Bailout Arena...rivalry wonks wait for it!)

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[ThroughBlue]

Then the game won't be played. I obviously have no problem with that.

"Elite program," my a$$...

It's going to be played. It would be nice if it could be a neutral site game EVERY year and divide the tickets up equally. Would be cool to see half blue half red arena

 

[zipp]

It's going to be played. It would be nice if it could be a neutral site game EVERY year and divide the tickets up equally. Would be cool to see half blue half red arena

In that respect, I like it the way it is. Some of the posters here are fine. But I want as few of the garden variety slappies near me as possible at all times. Makes me uneasy.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[Mike'sMarbles]

I think the game will continue to be played, but I agree that UofL doesn't need the game. If the series ended, UofL would continue to prosper.

We have games against UNC, Duke and Syracuse in-conference. Those are big time college basketball programs that will test our team and get us ready for March. Our league is also likely to always have a few other highly competitive teams. In years to come, as networks continue to want great matchups to draw ratings, we'll probably play these 3 teams twice a year more often.

I do like the idea of scheduling a few non-revenue games OOC. I don't like going into conference play without getting challenged.

I think scheduling UK is really beneficial for our team's early development. UK will always have tons of NBA talent under Calipari, giving our players a tough match-up challenge that can only benefit us down the road. We can't get that kind of exhibition game scheduling any other team except maybe Kansas.

 

[ThroughBlue]

In that respect, I like it the way it is. Some of the posters here are fine. But I want as few of the garden variety slappies near me as possible at all times. Makes me uneasy.

"Elite program," my a$$...

I think something like that would open it up to a national audience as well

 

[zipp]

I think something like that would open it up to a national audience as well

You mean the 1% who tuned in nationally during Xmas week?

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[zipp]

I think the game will continue to be played, but I agree that UofL doesn't need the game. If the series ended, UofL would continue to prosper.

We have games against UNC, Duke and Syracuse in-conference. Those are big time college basketball programs that will test our team and get us ready for March. Our league is also likely to always have a few other highly competitive teams. In years to come, as networks continue to want great matchups to draw ratings, we'll probably play these 3 teams twice a year more often.

I do like the idea of scheduling a few non-revenue games OOC. I don't like going into conference play without getting challenged.

I think scheduling UK is really beneficial for our team's early development. UK will always have tons of NBA talent under Calipari, giving our players a tough match-up challenge that can only benefit us down the road. We can't get that kind of exhibition game scheduling any other team except maybe Kansas.

You're right that the basketball series benefits LPT a lot more than it benefits U of L.

We don't need any good teams on our OOC schedule anymore due to the strength of the ACC. And that situation is only going to skew more that way. With the advent of the conference network, the ACC will be going to 20 conference games in the next year or two for financial reasons. When another team is added, I can easily see that schedule going to 22-24 games.

The conference basketball inventory for a media broadcaster is the most lucrative in the country, and the ACC will rightfully leverage that. With just 20 conference games, that's ten home games. You have the Big Ten-ACC Challenge which removes a home game every other year. If every other game you schedule is a home game, that's no more than ten additional home games or 20 total. If you wanna play in an exempt tournament, subtract one home game. If the ACC goes to 22 games, subtract another.

Each of those deductions is a couple million dollars. Jurich won't stand for too many, and for damn sure the arena CAN'T stand it.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[ThroughBlue]

You mean the 1% who tuned in nationally during Xmas week?

"Elite program," my a$$...

No actually when I said it would maybe open it up to more of a national audience I think that means the other 99% who didn't tune in

 

[zipp]

No actually when I said it would maybe open it up to more of a national audience I think that means the other 99% who didn't tune in

Yeah, well good luck with that when network execs above your pay grade have been trying to figure out how to do the same thing for quite awhile.

Of course, I'd expect an LPT fan to clutch onto hope for the growth of college basketball.

"Elite program," my a$$...

 

[ThroughBlue]

Yeah, well good luck with that when network execs above your pay grade have been trying to figure out how to do the same thing for quite awhile.

Of course, I'd expect an LPT fan to clutch onto hope for the growth of college basketball.

"Elite program," my a$$...

College basketball is what it is. Interesting for less than one month out of the year to the casual sports fan. No fixing that.

 

[nccardfan]

With the media attention of football injuries and some players even saying now that they would have played a different sport, the climate of football may be changing. Besides soccer what other sport do you think would benefit from increased interests? Certainly not baseball, which is typically considered too boring. Plus what other sport is now enjoying the benefits of parody?

 

[Mike'sMarbles]

You're right that the basketball series benefits LPT a lot more than it benefits U of L.

We don't need any good teams on our OOC schedule anymore due to the strength of the ACC. And that situation is only going to skew more that way. With the advent of the conference network, the ACC will be going to 20 conference games in the next year or two for financial reasons. When another team is added, I can easily see that schedule going to 22-24 games.

The conference basketball inventory for a media broadcaster is the most lucrative in the country, and the ACC will rightfully leverage that. With just 20 conference games, that's ten home games. You have the Big Ten-ACC Challenge which removes a home game every other year. If every other game you schedule is a home game, that's no more than ten additional home games or 20 total. If you wanna play in an exempt tournament, subtract one home game. If the ACC goes to 22 games, subtract another.

Each of those deductions is a couple million dollars. Jurich won't stand for too many, and for damn sure the arena CAN'T stand it.

"Elite program," my a$$...

From just a basketball standpoint, not business, I do think there is still some value in scheduling a few tough home-home series in the OOC. When players go up against weak competition 10 games in a row at home, they tend to develop bad habits. When your opponents are always 2 inches shorter, not as athletic, not able to score, playing against that isn't getting you ready for real competition. You can do whatever you want and you get used to that. Then conference play starts and there's real resistance for the first time.

Playing against UK's NBA-DL team will really test our guys. They will match up against athletes that have the same or better quickness and maybe taller, who can play physically. It's just a good challenge and good for UofL's development going up against an NBA-DL team. Our guys get an opportunity to see where they need to improve.

Also, again from a basketball not business perspective, playing a few tough road games early in the year gets you ready to go into places like Duke, Carolina, Pitt, Syracuse and face those tough atmospheres. IMO, it puts you a little behind if the first road game is in league play.

 

[zipp]

It's a good point about football (injuries), but that golden goose is not gonna die easily. There are a lotta things that can be done to make the game safer--there's plenty of ground between here and there...

And as long as gambling's involved, there will be some level of interest.

Jurich has long been a visionary with his focus on the nonrevenue/Olympic/Title IX sports. The distant future could well be a collection of a half dozen college sports that make money incl. soccer, women's basketball, and baseball. It's why the ACC platform is so important to us.

Speaking of which... Watch this ACC basketball tournament to understand the relative value of conference games and the lack thereof in OOC games. There are lot of conference games this year that could have been scheduled but there weren't enough opportunities available on an 18-game schedule to do that. The same pressure that's driving football conferences to nine- or even ten-game schedules.

"Elite program," my a$$...