well why shouldn't everything be free or easy.

[Guardman]

Why should anyone have to work for anything? Everyone should be equal. Equal grades and equal money for no hard work or no work at all. That's fair.

COURIER JOURNAL today:

"Jefferson County Public Schools officials are exploring the idea of changing schools' grading scales to make it easier for students to get good marks.

In a survey that's been sent out to parents, teachers and school administrators, JCPS asks whether the current grading scale should be widened to allow a larger portion of students to score A's, B's and C's, and to get higher GPAs in the process.

The idea, at least in large part, is to make students more competitive in college applications and to net more money on the merit-based Kentucky Educational Excellence Scholarships.

"With the cost of tuition going up, we should do everything possible for our students to better compete with other students throughout the state for tuition money," said school board member Chris Brady, who had asked the district to keep looking into this change.

Currently, JCPS' scale dictates that a student who scores 93 to 100 percent earns an A, while a B is the equivalent of 86 to 92 percent, a C equals 79 to 85 percent and a D is 70 to 78 percent.

The suggested scale would have schools change the cutoff for an A to lower to 90 percent, while a B would drop to 80 to 89 percent, a C 75-79 percent and a D 70 to 74 percent.

The score for U, or below standards, would remain as anything below 70 percent.

Other school districts have altered their grading scales in recent years in efforts to help students. In 2013, Bullitt County Public Schools voted to change to a 10-point "

 

[ajgcardman]

In all due respect, Guardman, if kids are really getting lower GPAs, and thus less govt-subsidized college aid opportunity because of it, despite achieving the same test scores numerically, that's a real problem. It needs to be fixed. Whether one side's scale is dropped, or the other raised, it matters not to me. But there should be a standardized grading system used statewide, and I'm really not sure why there apparently isn't.

I don't know any details about this issue, but first heard this last month from my teenaged daughter. She is a pretty good fastpitch softball player, plays on a regional travel team with several other girls from outside Jefferson County, and they were updating their recruiting profiles for the upcoming summer season. She was telling me how some of the others on the team were at schools with the lower grading scales and how she would be a 4.0 student at those schools with the same numerical scores she currently has and would receive slightly more funds from the program cited in that article.
She attends Louisville Male, but the other girls attend public schools in the northern Ky and central Ky areas. She even said one girl on the lower scale system is from Louisville, but goes to a local catholic school. That's just silly, IMO, and needs to be corrected.

 

[gamedaynut]

It is part of the strategy of
cultivating a permanent underclass dependent on government.

 

[cewsmith]

^^^^^^^ a little bit of a reach for this topic but I agree

 

[80_86]

Originally posted by gamedaynut:

It is part of the strategy of
cultivating a permanent underclass dependent on government.

Yes, the fundamental transformation of America. Americans have for the most part buried their heads in the sand these past six years. One day they're going to wake up and say "What happened?"

 

[American Male]

The continued "DUMBING Down of America" that the Liberals and the NEA has been doing since LBJ!!!

 

[bobwest]

Agree

 

[PushupMan]

I see a pretty easy solution to this. Quit giving letter grades. Colleges should require transcripts that give the actual percent grades earned in the class.

I've never been a big fan of letter grades. If I earned an 86% and another student earned 92%, he did better than I did, period. We shouldn't both get a "B".

 

[Majestic Red]

This is more or less what colleges do, grading scale-wise.

 

[rentalman]

My son attends Clements HS in Sugar Land, TX. Their grading scale is similar to the one JCPS is proposing. Not sure on a National Basis what scale is predominantly used but if the scale JCPS are currently using in causing students to be at a disadvantage when applying to college than they should make the change.

 

[ULCard17]

Originally posted by PushupMan:
I see a pretty easy solution to this. Quit giving letter grades. Colleges should require transcripts that give the actual percent grades earned in the class.

I've never been a big fan of letter grades. If I earned an 86% and another student earned 92%, he did better than I did, period. We shouldn't both get a "B".

Good point pushup.

 

[CardX]

JCPS blows. But, I'm struggling why this thread was started here, and remains here. There's an OT board for a reason.

 

[Guardman]

X - I don't mind if it is moved to an OT board. Probably legitimately deserves to be there. Not here.

BTW, the reason I posted the topic at all was not so much my irritation with JCPS or the Courier-Journal, though I am plenty irritated at them both, but instead to stimulate critical comment on the general dumbing-down and weakening of education that continues seemingly everywhere and at every turn, including even at some very good universities. It seems to me that most everything in education is becoming less demanding, that is..."everybody deserves a good grade", "everyone deserves to get a diploma/degree, earned or not". I fear what such a lack of emphasis on earned achievement will end up doing to our society and to our children and their children.

I am not sure all children and students are meant to be high achievers. I am not even sure that all people have an inclination to be regular students or just students, period.

If all people are going to be 'entitled' to nearly free education, good grades and a diploma/degree, plus free food, nearly free living spaces, nearly free transportatioin, nearly universal heath care and insurance, then where will children pick up solid ideas of achievement and earned betterment?

Aren't we raising and teaching our young people to become entitled wimps who emphasize and value and expect equality and sameness of outcomes, irrespective of the amount of work they put into attainment, betterment and achievement?

There are plenty of parallels in sports and one fear that I have is that the CoA push will backfire into unintended consequence very badly...one result may be that all students and all admins and profs start demanding to be treated equally, despite their differing levels and types of work inputs.

 

[ciswilldean3215]

Guardman, that is the best post on here I have ever read. Spot on. Kudos.

 

[No.1Cardfan]

The new thought from our liberal/progressives is that since it is not the fault of a low achieving person (devoid of a God given gene for being highly motivated) how can we penalize them for that.

This post was edited on 3/3 10:31 AM by No.1Cardfan

 

[Guardman]

No.1:

This is not a new 'thought'. I don't really want to get into 'liberal/progressive' or any other label trying to describe 'thought'.

One question is: Do we believe in a society which values hard-earned/hard-fought/and sometimes lucky achievement? Or do we believe in a society in which we are regarded as simply being 'what we are', and we are not going to change very much, and we are all equal in most ways? Shall we try to improve ourselves or just exist as we are? I think I know how Charles Darwin would have answered.

 

[BooneCo_Card]

Thanks Guardman for touching on the area of Darwin that I firmly believe.

Some may not like it, but it sounds to me that JCPS has it right while the majority (including my area) has it wrong. It may well be one of the reasons the Metro continues to lead this state in so many areas. Granted there is more opportunity there, but you have to EARN it.

What's this 'U' business? We left that in the 1st grade. Bring back the 'F'! Calling something unacceptable pales in comparison to calling it failure.

 

[Mayoman]

Originally posted by PushupMan:
I see a pretty easy solution to this. Quit giving letter grades. Colleges should require transcripts that give the actual percent grades earned in the class.

I've never been a big fan of letter grades. If I earned an 86% and another student earned 92%, he did better than I did, period. We shouldn't both get a "B".

And there it is. So logical and simple that this thought will have little chance of ever being implemented by school administrators..

In FB, who is the guy you want at WR or CB? The 4.3 forty guy or the 4.6? Who is faster in this measurable? It should be that simple.

I agree with P/U and with ajg. G-man you make very astute points too.

But my money would be on doing what P/U man says and really level the playing field for all with one numerical standard for all nationwide. A 4.3 is a 4.3....and is better than a 4.6. We all can't be the 4.3, but the 4.6 is still better than the 4.8.

 

[Guardman]

Hi, Mayo,

Dozens of thoughts running here, but it would seem things such as running/sprinting times would be much more measurable and objective. Thus easier to score and much more accurate.

Scoring academic test results is not nearly as objective as running a stopwatch. True and always will be true.

To me a central thought is that many seem to want to dumb-down and average-out requirements and standards. We seem to want to look for both the lowest common denominator and the lowest standard. I am just not sure that that is anything different than simply wanting to make everything equal.

Since all individuals are different in ability, then why is it reasonable/fair to expect...or,in fact, try to mandate, equal outcomes for those individuals? And that is just where these sorts of initiatives are all headed: Equal individual outcomes --- based on random input work and effort.

I think this sameness/equalness syndrome will invade sports. At every level. After all, why shouldn't a 6.2 runner be mandated to play in the NFL?

Guardman

 

[Mayoman]

Originally posted by Guardman:
Hi, Mayo,

Dozens of thoughts running here, but it would seem things such as running/sprinting times would be much more measurable and objective. Thus easier to score and much more accurate.

Scoring academic test results is not nearly as objective as running a stopwatch. True and always will be true.

To me a central thought is that many seem to want to dumb-down and average-out requirements and standards. We seem to want to look for both the lowest common denominator and the lowest standard. I am just not sure that that is anything different than simply wanting to make everything equal.

Since all individuals are different in ability, then why is it reasonable/fair to expect...or,in fact, try to mandate, equal outcomes for those individuals? And that is just where these sorts of initiatives are all headed: Equal individual outcomes --- based on random input work and effort.

I think this sameness/equalness syndrome will invade sports. At every level. After all, why shouldn't a 6.2 runner be mandated to play in the NFL?

Guardman

Simple answer to that question.....as the NFL is all about winning...and coaches who don't win don't last long....you play the best....you draft the best....if you play the slower, less talented, or less intelligent and don't win.....you get fired. No truer 'F' grade than that. F=Fail=Fired. That is how the real world and Darwin figured out how it would work....survival of the fittest, fastest, and/or smartest. Your statement " equal individual outcomes -- based on random input work and effort" is a big part of what is wrong with the entire US educational system from 1-16 and above.

It just may be that that that 4.3 sprinter was a 4.6 until he/she discovered the weight room and ate using proper nutritional methods. In other words, he/she worked to get stronger, ate to complement the bodies calorie limit, and studied the proper techniques to improve his/her time in the 40. Worked to improve.

Students would be well advised to follow a similar regimen to attain higher test scores and improve their emotional intelligence as well as their intellectual intelligence. Work as a value has become a dirty 4 letter word to too many in our society nowadays.

The self fulfilling prophecy of lower standards of our educators; and administrators/teachers inability to enforce or even expect discipline and standards of civility or respect to authority figures; is down right disgraceful.

But then, McD's, Hardies, and Burger King need to get their employees from somewhere. Sad state of affairs.....I pray daily that God intervenes and this country turns the corner on the entitlement mantra set up for our young people. (

 

[RabidCard]

I'm with you. My Dad was a Marine. No hand-outs mentality. "If it is to be, it's up to me".[/B]

 

[ajgcardman]

Originally posted by Guardman:
X - I don't mind if it is moved to an OT board. Probably legitimately deserves to be there. Not here.

BTW, the reason I posted the topic at all was not so much my irritation with JCPS or the Courier-Journal, though I am plenty irritated at them both, but instead to stimulate critical comment on the general dumbing-down and weakening of education that continues seemingly everywhere and at every turn, including even at some very good universities. It seems to me that most everything in education is becoming less demanding, that is..."everybody deserves a good grade", "everyone deserves to get a diploma/degree, earned or not". I fear what such a lack of emphasis on earned achievement will end up doing to our society and to our children and their children.

I am not sure all children and students are meant to be high achievers. I am not even sure that all people have an inclination to be regular students or just students, period.

If all people are going to be 'entitled' to nearly free education, good grades and a diploma/degree, plus free food, nearly free living spaces, nearly free transportatioin, nearly universal heath care and insurance, then where will children pick up solid ideas of achievement and earned betterment?

Aren't we raising and teaching our young people to become entitled wimps who emphasize and value and expect equality and sameness of outcomes, irrespective of the amount of work they put into attainment, betterment and achievement?

There are plenty of parallels in sports and one fear that I have is that the CoA push will backfire into unintended consequence very badly...one result may be that all students and all admins and profs start demanding to be treated equally, despite their differing levels and types of work inputs.

I don't disagree with anything you write. I'm a staunch conservative.

But in this case, there IS a problem that needs to be addressed. I think it can be easily fixed without "dumbing down America." Carry on.

 

[ajgcardman]

Let me just add....

The Kees (sp?) scholarship program, which I think is what this thread initially referenced, actually is the result of bipartisan legislation that has many conservative principles. Yes, its still the government running something, taking our money, and re-distributing said funds the way they see fit. And for that reason alone, I can't say the whole idea had my support.

But, it's not all bad, either, and shouldn't be loosely compared to many other socialistic "entitlement" programs. The program is designed to help entice more kids to attend college in-state.

First of all, these so called "handouts," which this $$$ is being inaccurately referenced to in this thread, is not really being funded by "forced" tax dollars. It comes from lottery revenues, which is state-run, but purely "optional" participation from the customer's standpoint, and the money is "awarded" to students based on incentivized "merit," in this case defined by a high school GPA. More funds to higher GPA students. In other words, incentivize the better students to stay home for college.

The funds are so small in nature, though, its just small subsidation for the individual student, and its debatable if it even works. And if you get right down to it, the people that are really funding this scholarship program very well could be the proletariat sector and below, and many that are receiving the benefit are likely of higher social class. A hint of built-in reverse democratic policy?

Obviously, a lot of fundamental flaws can be found in tax-and-spend or re-distribution policies, especially if you are a right-thinking citizen. But at least this program, IMO, makes pretty good use of the $$$ after they steal it! If, as they say, all the net proceeds are actually going to where they claim they are. But that's a "whole nother" story to the piece of the puzzle, and generally why I'm conservative against these types of government controlled policies.

But since the program exists, it needs to managed properly, so it operates as it was created....merit-based support to the better students. So debate whether these types of policies should exist all you want, but in the mean time, FIX THE PROGRAM.

 

[Guardman]

Hello, AJG -

Thanks for the thoughtful comment you shared for everyone here.

I certainly never mentioned redistribution, but I did allude to our intense societal drive toward fairness and equality in seemingly every aspect of our existence. What I indicated is that we are more concerned with equality and being treated equally and fairly than with personal achievement and betterment through hard work. The entire Gannett enterprise and NYT and WP are more deeply bent, than ever before, toward pointing out inequalities in the outcomes of life and work.

I have twin 12-year old nieces who are extraordinarily 'jump-the-shark' bright, and when I see them, they choose to talk to me about and emphasize fairness in everything and they point out instances of unequal treatment of their friends and classmates. I just hope and pray that they learn how to compete in life. They are not athletic. (And they don't read sports boards)

I don't particularly care for the "KEES" program (or whatever it is called), but that in itself is not my concern at all, but instead my concern is with the 'late 1790's French/1905-1912 Russian" - like drive toward 'equality' everywhere.

I am a fiscal conservative and a social moderate and a moral rule-follower, much as were Barry Goldwater and Ron Reagan.

And I make plenty of mistakes in everyday life. I just try to be better the next time, knowing I am imperfect.

All taxes are not bad, but the majority are. Some are necessary.

And everyone does deserve a basic humane treatment. But not the same treatment.

In my view, everyone is fully entitled to vigorously pursue betterment. There are some that cannot and some that will not. I would make provisions for virtually all who cannot and for very few who will not.

And Capital Punishment is good and wise. And Imperfect.

There are far too many laws on the books, but not enough of them are enforced.

And most of our social welfare programs need to be dialed back, and several eliminated.

And if we are unwilling to let our soldiers and airmen and marines and sailors die in War and in training, our country is gone right before our eyes.

Guardman

 

[jarheadky]

Originally posted by Guardman:
Hello, AJG -

Thanks for the thoughtful comment you shared for everyone here.

I certainly never mentioned redistribution, but I did allude to our intense societal drive toward fairness and equality in seemingly every aspect of our existence. What I indicated is that we are more concerned with equality and being treated equally and fairly than with personal achievement and betterment through hard work. The entire Gannett enterprise and NYT and WP are more deeply bent, than ever before, toward pointing out inequalities in the outcomes of life and work.

I have twin 12-year old nieces who are extraordinarily 'jump-the-shark' bright, and when I see them, they choose to talk to me about and emphasize fairness in everything and they point out instances of unequal treatment of their friends and classmates. I just hope and pray that they learn how to compete in life. They are not athletic. (And they don't read sports boards)

I don't particularly care for the "KEES" program (or whatever it is called), but that in itself is not my concern at all, but instead my concern is with the 'late 1790's French/1905-1912 Russian" - like drive toward 'equality' everywhere.

I am a fiscal conservative and a social moderate and a moral rule-follower, much as were Barry Goldwater and Ron Reagan.

And I make plenty of mistakes in everyday life. I just try to be better the next time, knowing I am imperfect.

All taxes are not bad, but the majority are. Some are necessary.

And everyone does deserve a basic humane treatment. But not the same treatment.

In my view, everyone is fully entitled to vigorously pursue betterment. There are some that cannot and some that will not. I would make provisions for virtually all who cannot and for very few who will not.

And Capital Punishment is good and wise. And Imperfect.

There are far too many laws on the books, but not enough of them are enforced.

And most of our social welfare programs need to be dialed back, and several eliminated.

And if we are unwilling to let our soldiers and airmen and marines and sailors die in War and in training, our country is gone right before our eyes.

Guardman






I am new to the whole message board phenom, after retiring recently it gives me a way to pass the time although I do seem to end up doing a lot more lurking and reading than actual posting, have figured out UK fans don't seem to be very welcome around here although I also have seen and understand why, lol.

Anyway excellent post I really enjoyed reading it sometimes I wonder if parents understand the basic concept that if you do not teach a child to WORK and live without you once your gone from this world then you have failed as a parent, have a wonderful day and God Bless.

 

[beantowncard]

Class rank pretty much controls for grade inflation.