Rutherford says no Level 2 violations for Mack…

[zipp]

I don’t follow this stuff closely or try to handicap it. My apologies if this subject or Mike Rutherford’s opinion may have been discussed in another thread. I was listening to a recent podcast of his radio show--I think it was Thursday--and he said that he doesn’t think U of L will get hit with Level 2 violations based on Chris Mack’s misconduct or negligence.

Rutherford said that he has expressed this opinion before, and it’s based on discussions he’s had with people who are familiar with the situation and the NCAA’s past findings and penalties in this area. He didn’t mention names, but he sounded pretty confident in his information.

Again, I don’t normally concern myself with these issues and outcomes, but there’s a related subject--money-- that I’m always discussing. Many regard potential NCAA findings against Mack as a “get out of jail free card” to terminate him for cause. I agree that would be a silver lining if you want to make a coaching change in the short run. In effect, Rutherford’s predicting that we’re not getting that GOOJF card.

I’m the last guy you’re gonna convince that U of L can afford to fire Mack anyway. We can’t afford the cost to get rid of Satterfield, and Mack’s buyout is several million higher IIRC. Not to mention, Mack may end up getting an automatic contract extension depending on how the NCAA rules.

Knowing this, the evil side of the NCAA (is there another?) may decide not to penalize Mack for this very reason. What better penalty for U of L than be forced to retain Mack or pay a huge cost to get rid of him?...

 

[2330859]

Now your into fantasyland Zipp …The NCAA CoI does not work that way. UL, like most all Universities have termination clause that justify firing when an employee knowingly and willfully violate school rules.

I happen to agree with Mike, as the NCAA rules do not address compliance between the Member Institution’s own rules and its own employees.

 

[zipp]

Now your into fantasyland Zipp …The NCAA CoI does not work that way. UL, like most all Universities have termination clause that justify firing when an employee knowingly and willfully violate school rules.

I happen to agree with Mike, as the NCAA rules do not address compliance between the Member Institution’s own rules and its own employees.

If there's any fantasy here, it's the belief that you can simply deny Mack a $12 million buyout over ambiguus "school rules" that aren't clear in his contract. Why in the hell do you think we're talking about whether he violated NCAA rules?

I've read these coaching contracts before, and they typically spell out N-C-A-A. If you find language in addition or otherwise, link it. Don't talk to me about something watered down that you WANT TO NOW READ in Mack's contract...

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I believe Mack will probably return next year as a dead man walking.

I base this on hunch only. No deep thoughts or in depth review of the situation.

 

[2330859]

Zipp, I doubt that you have ever participated in the termination process of an executive employee who is under an employment agreement (EA),, but I have, and I can tell you firsthand that termination “with cause” language is not confined to the specifics (like NCAA violations) as defined in the EA.

Violation of the Employer’s rules as defined in the Employer Handbook, generally provided to the employee.

Everyone understands that NCAA Violation is sufficient justification for terminating Mack or any of the coaches. What you obviously fail to understand; that alone does not constitute “with cause termination“.

Prior to any discussion about NCAA violations; it is widely known that Neeli felt she had sufficient justification to terminate Mack with cause.

 

[beantowncard]

If there's any fantasy here, it's the belief that you can simply deny Mack a $12 million buyout over ambiguus "school rules" that aren't clear in his contract. Why in the hell do you think we're talking about whether he violated NCAA rules?

I've read these coaching contracts before, and they typically spell out N-C-A-A. If you find language in addition or otherwise, link it. Don't talk to me about something watered down that you WANT TO NOW READ in Mack's contract...

But we could have gotten out of Bobby’s deal with no or greatly reduced buyout if only TJ had been there to negotiate it. Ok.

 

[EKYCard643]

I believe Mack will probably return next year as a dead man walking.

I base this on hunch only. No deep thoughts or in depth review of the situation.

I think he'll back next year for 2 reasons: I don't think we will know the NCAAs decision in time if we could fire him and I don't think the NCAA will levy level 2 sanctions.

I don't know what the answer for UofL athletics is right now but we're in a BIND. Historic low attendance numbers in basketball and lowest attendance numbers in a decade in football this past year. I have zero doubt that attendance will be much worse this year for football and basketball will also continue to decline. As Zipp has shown us, bball attendance numbers are BAD (by UofL standards) and will likely only get worse as this team limps through the rest of this season and fans like us will be forced to "get excited" yet again for a group of new transfers and kids. Even though we'll likely lose Malik, Faulkner, West, Sam, Locke, Withers and Traynor, we'll be expected to get excited for whatever mid-major PG Mack gets and have to listen to how Kamari Lands will play 25+ mins a game only to see him get in 8-10 mins a game.

My point being - Louisville is stuck. We have two hugely unpopular coaches, both of whom had ample time to prove their worth and have been major disappointments, falling attendance and no money to fix the problems. People keep saying "winning will solve the issues" which is true but we don't have the money to get guys in here that can win in order for us to generate the money we need to win. lol

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I think he'll back next year for 2 reasons: I don't think we will know the NCAAs decision in time if we could fire him and I don't think the NCAA will levy level 2 sanctions.

I don't know what the answer for UofL athletics is right now but we're in a BIND. Historic low attendance numbers in basketball and lowest attendance numbers in a decade in football this past year. I have zero doubt that attendance will be much worse this year for football and basketball will also continue to decline. As Zipp has shown us, bball attendance numbers are BAD (by UofL standards) and will likely only get worse as this team limps through the rest of this season and fans like us will be forced to "get excited" yet again for a group of new transfers and kids. Even though we'll likely lose Malik, Faulkner, West, Sam, Locke, Withers and Traynor, we'll be expected to get excited for whatever mid-major PG Mack gets and have to listen to how Kamari Lands will play 25+ mins a game only to see him get in 8-10 mins a game.

My point being - Louisville is stuck. We have two hugely unpopular coaches, both of whom had ample time to prove their worth and have been major disappointments, falling attendance and no money to fix the problems. People keep saying "winning will solve the issues" which is true but we don't have the money to get guys in here that can win in order for us to generate the money we need to win. lol

I think you've covered it pretty well.

It's just some dark times. They have to get full-time hires above the coaching staffs prior to deciding how to handle. And then there's the weak financial position the program is in, things @zipp can probably document.

Gotta ride it out. $ don't grow on trees. And if we're being real, when you look @ the candidates, it's not a bunch of can't miss guys out there anyway.

 

[EKYCard643]

I think you've covered it pretty well.

It's just some dark times. They have to get full-time hires above the coaching staffs prior to deciding how to handle. And then there's the weak financial position the program is in, things @zipp can probably document.

Gotta ride it out. $ don't grow on trees. And if we're being real, when you look @ the candidates, it's not a bunch of can't miss guys out there anyway.

It can not be overstated - who we hire for Athletic Director will decide weather UofL is sent to the dark ages of athletics or they dig themselves out of the hole and reinvigorate the programs. Basketball is a little different due to NCAA sanctions and Mack's contract but a great AD re-establishing booster relations could get rid of Satterfield pretty quickly. Fixing the football program would float a lot of the athletic department through these tight times.

I don't think you stay put with a coach just because you don't think there's a homerun hire that you can identify. You've got to take risks. I don't know what Mack's problem at UofL is - but he's got major problems and outside of 4-5 week run in his 2nd season he's pretty much been disappointing at EVERY opportunity. I don't know. I don't see his recruiting getting better (we're an Adidas school so there's already a cap on that) and I don't see him "figuring it out" here in year 4. I really think this might be his worst team at Louisville. They do nothing well, have no identity, no alpha, no NBA talent, 1 athlete and are just generally "meh" across the board.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

It can not be overstated - who we hire for Athletic Director will decide weather UofL is sent to the dark ages of athletics or they dig themselves out of the hole and reinvigorate the programs. Basketball is a little different due to NCAA sanctions and Mack's contract but a great AD re-establishing booster relations could get rid of Satterfield pretty quickly. Fixing the football program would float a lot of the athletic department through these tight times.

I don't think you stay put with a coach just because you don't think there's a homerun hire that you can identify. You've got to take risks. I don't know what Mack's problem at UofL is - but he's got major problems and outside of 4-5 week run in his 2nd season he's pretty much been disappointing at EVERY opportunity. I don't know. I don't see his recruiting getting better (we're an Adidas school so there's already a cap on that) and I don't see him "figuring it out" here in year 4. I really think this might be his worst team at Louisville. They do nothing well, have no identity, no alpha, no NBA talent, 1 athlete and are just generally "meh" across the board.

Yeah Mack hasn't crushed it, the guy has very low support. The list of next up ain't gonna be so hot is all I'm saying. Not just because it may not be a desirable destination, but because so many HC's of this era have either retired or about to retire, moved to the NBA (Billy D et el), or are just not leaving their long held positions (Few, Wright).

You like to make the lists, best case scenario for a hiring situation for UofL let's pretend the program has $ and let's pretend the NCAA is wrapped up, I am looking at this from most ideal scenario.... what's the list?

I would think, Cronin, Oats, Wes Miller, Todd Golden, Michael Boynton Jr. Just random off top of head examples.

Fans would probably be happy with Cronin or Oats, but it would be no guarantee UofL could get either even in best scenario, for sure if there was never a scandal but.... Fans would probably not be jazzed up for the other 3.

Fans will list Pearl, Wright, etc... and once it's obvious that's not the pool we are swimming in, would fans be pumped for Todd Golden? I'm open minded so I'd be okay with it, but what about other fans?

I'm sure you have at least another 5 guys on your radar, and you wouldn't have a problem selling me, but what about the fan base?

 

[EKYCard643]

Yeah Mack hasn't crushed it, the guy has very low support. The list of next up ain't gonna be so hot is all I'm saying. Not just because it may not be a desirable destination, but because so many HC's of this era have either retired or about to retire, moved to the NBA (Billy D et el), or are just not leaving their long held positions (Few, Wright).

You like to make the lists, best case scenario for a hiring situation for UofL let's pretend the program has $ and let's pretend the NCAA is wrapped up, I am looking at this from most ideal scenario.... what's the list?

I would think, Cronin, Oats, Wes Miller, Todd Golden, Michael Boynton Jr. Just random off top of head examples.

Fans would probably be happy with Cronin or Oats, but it would be no guarantee UofL could get either even in best scenario, for sure if there was never a scandal but.... Fans would probably not be jazzed up for the other 3.

Fans will list Pearl, Wright, etc... and once it's obvious that's not the pool we are swimming in, would fans be pumped for Todd Golden? I'm open minded so I'd be okay with it, but what about other fans?

I'm sure you have at least another 5 guys on your radar, and you wouldn't have a problem selling me, but what about the fan base?

I don't know what the answer is. I could be sold on just about anyone. Fans are going to point to bringing in a guy who can bring in talent - but again, Louisville is an Adidas school and as long as thats the case we have no shot at one and done level talent. So Louisville needs to find a guy who's young, can recruit the right kind of players and someone who will fully embrace the potential and magnitude of the Louisville basketball program. Pitino obviously always thought he was bigger and more important than the program but Mack has embraced it a little but not to the level I would like to see.

Louisville just needs a guy who can coach up kids. Louisville is never going to have elite level talent but they can have elite level talent for their scheme. I think Mack can coach but for whatever reason he's not figured it out at Louisville. In all likelihood we're going to be forced to wait on him and hope that he figures it out but I'm not optimistic. I really think a better coach could have this team sitting with only 2 losses but as it stands like I said - I think this might be the worst team he's had.

 

[achilles992000]

i would rather have Mack stay. i agree with others that there aren't that many solid head coaches available.

college basketball will be very volatile.
lot of turnover with transfer portal and players going to draft or GLeague or overseas. and with NIL, things will change even more. these are not the days of Pitino and Crum.

 

[zipp]

Zipp, I doubt that you have ever participated in the termination process of an executive employee who is under an employment agreement (EA),, but I have, and I can tell you firsthand that termination “with cause” language is not confined to the specifics (like NCAA violations) as defined in the EA.

Violation of the Employer’s rules as defined in the Employer Handbook, generally provided to the employee.

Everyone understands that NCAA Violation is sufficient justification for terminating Mack or any of the coaches. What you obviously fail to understand; that alone does not constitute “with cause termination“.

Prior to any discussion about NCAA violations; it is widely known that Neeli felt she had sufficient justification to terminate Mack with cause.

Cite his contract, not your HR experience.

If it was that easy, why did we immediately pay Petrino ALL of his $14+ million? Reportedly—in this space—that guy was shirking his coaching responsibilities before he was fired.

Why are most coaches who are fired paid big buyouts? You want me to believe they’re all model employees?

You better hope Mack was guilty of NCAA violations if you wanna sidestep his buyout. Otherwise he’s not going anywhere IMO…

 

[zipp]

But we could have gotten out of Bobby’s deal with no or greatly reduced buyout if only TJ had been there to negotiate it. Ok.

There’s a huge chasm between $0 and $14+ million. And as you just said, there’s a process known as “negotiation”.

You think we could use, say, half of that $14 million now that we’re borrowing millions to pay bills? You betcha…

 

[zipp]

Financials aside, my biggest problem with replacing Mack or Satterfield is WHO makes those hires. No one’s claimed that was ever easy, and our current leadership has shown in spades how badly they can screw things up.

As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for…

 

[TheRealVille]

We fans just need to face reality as much as it sucks. For many reasons it's just not in the cards for the Cards.

Mack - Most fans I know feel the same about Chris Mack. The covid years derailed his great start as the Cards head man. We were ranked #1, Jordan Nwora was a all-American and we were going to be a difficult out in the big dance.

But that all changed as has the world with the covid mania.

Now maybe Mack should have handled the adversity better and not behave like a spoiled child, but we all know Louisville was one of the worst effected programs of the pandemic. Cards would have made the dance if just one of the games canceled the Cards actually won.

Now in year three he has to deal with more NCAA violations along with the pandemic and the new transfer portal. No wonder he lost his cool over Gaudio, but he paid for it with the six game suspension the school had to impose just to give a nod to the NCAA.

The frustration in Mack those six games was probably earth shattering to his confidence and his expectations.

And now he can't find his lineup or identity and his team is basically treading water. The 3 point shooters he brought in haven't performed like he needs to find that identity.

The season is still young and there's still time to figure things out. I think the FSU game offensively was better than most of their games this season. There were no 5 or 6 minute droughts.

I think Mack deserves a covid free season with players that actually perform to their stated talent. I think he's a good coach. I remember him at Xavier and I liked those teams. He just hit a huge roadblock and he has to persevere past it. I thinks the fans should as well.

 

[Knucklehank1]

We fans just need to face reality as much as it sucks. For many reasons it's just not in the cards for the Cards.

Mack - Most fans I know feel the same about Chris Mack. The covid years derailed his great start as the Cards head man. We were ranked #1, Jordan Nwora was a all-American and we were going to be a difficult out in the big dance.

But that all changed as has the world with the covid mania.

Now maybe Mack should have handled the adversity better and not behave like a spoiled child, but we all know Louisville was one of the worst effected programs of the pandemic. Cards would have made the dance if just one of the games canceled the Cards actually won.

Now in year three he has to deal with more NCAA violations along with the pandemic and the new transfer portal. No wonder he lost his cool over Gaudio, but he paid for it with the six game suspension the school had to impose just to give a nod to the NCAA.

The frustration in Mack those six games was probably earth shattering to his confidence and his expectations.

And now he can't find his lineup or identity and his team is basically treading water. The 3 point shooters he brought in haven't performed like he needs to find that identity.

The season is still young and there's still time to figure things out. I think the FSU game offensively was better than most of their games this season. There were no 5 or 6 minute droughts.

I think Mack deserves a covid free season with players that actually perform to their stated talent. I think he's a good coach. I remember him at Xavier and I liked those teams. He just hit a huge roadblock and he has to persevere past it. I thinks the fans should as well.

Perhaps his biggest impediment are potential Level 2 violations. If those are assessed then UofL has to make an immediate up or down vote on his future. I’m pretty sure that his contract automatically gets extended if UofL gets violations from adidas scandal. So UofL will either cut bait or be in bed with him for awhile.

 

[htowncard]

But we could have gotten out of Bobby’s deal with no or greatly reduced buyout if only TJ had been there to negotiate it. Ok.

???TJ WROTE THAT IDIOTIC BUYOUT

 

[zipp]

???TJ WROTE THAT IDIOTIC BUYOUT

OK I'll play along for the 100th time. Why was that buyout idiotic?

 

[2330859]

Zipp: in your rush to respond to my post, you obviously failed to read and understand what I said. First, it was not from an HR perspective, but rather from legal precedents as it applies to the interpretation of what can qualify as “with cause” for termination.

I have not established yet my own position as to whether Mack should or should not be replaced yet, much less fired with or without cause. My point here is that while any forthcoming NCAA sanctions make it easy to terminate Mack, this University retains the legal ability to argue “with cause” in the event there are no NCAA sanctions assigned to Mack.

As far as Petrino termination was concerned ……. Vince made that decision on his own without exploring all of the University’s options. It would have required an investigation by the University into Bobby’s behavior, and would have led to a lawsuit ……something Tyra must have felt was more than he and the school were prepared to initiate.

 

[zipp]

Zipp: in your rush to respond to my post, you obviously failed to read and understand what I said. First, it was not from an HR perspective, but rather from legal precedents as it applies to the interpretation of what can qualify as “with cause” for termination.

I have not established yet my own position as to whether Mack should or should not be replaced yet, much less fired with or without cause. My point here is that while any forthcoming NCAA sanctions make it easy to terminate Mack, this University retains the legal ability to argue “with cause” in the event there are no NCAA sanctions assigned to Mack.

As far as Petrino termination was concerned ……. Vince made that decision on his own without exploring all of the University’s options. It would have required an investigation by the University into Bobby’s behavior, and would have led to a lawsuit ……something Tyra must have felt was more than he and the school were prepared to initiate.

I'll take the side of historical precedence... Coaches with big buyouts seldom if ever get fired without paying any of that money. You need a black-and-white provision that was broken in a contract.

In addition to 100% of Petrino's buyout, U of L paid Pizza Guy $10 million to remove a name from the stadium that our football team was refusing to play in the middle of. Who's fault was that...a football team comprised largely of AA kids? The University? Or the idiot who made the remark? But let's give him his $10 mil anyway.

My prediction if it comes to pass... You ain't getting outta Mack's buyout unless he gets NCAA infractions leveled against him. Paying ALL of it is another matter which can be negotiated. And we don't have much money to pay anyone...

 

[2330859]

Not true Zipp, that is why EAs are challenged in legal settings everyday ……interpretation is not as “black and white” as you may think, but you and I will simply “agree to disagree“ on contract law issues.

Here is the real matter that is at hand Zipp, and one that exposes your flawed predicate …….. specifically, firing Mack is not entirely based on available funds/revenue. No one on this site challenges your numbers (in fact, you and Guardman provide a valued service with the data that you each bring here).

As I stated in another OP, I am not convinced that Mack should be terminated at this point for several reasons. First, the timing makes it impossible under the present circumstances here at UL right now. It’s not just the vacancies with our President and AD; it’s the underlying issues that prompted those 2 departures. The existing NCAA cloud hanging over this Program alone would make finding a viable candidate the most challenging obstacle, one that will remain until it becomes resolved. Lastly, I am not sure there is a better long term candidate than Mack, as I remain convinced that his performance has been so adversely affected by some of the most unprecedented conditions that any coach could hurdle.

Mack may very well be the one HC who could persevere through the sanctions that we all know and expect are coming. I am not sure there are any other candidates that could come in and turn this around given the existing environment.

 

[zipp]

Absent NCAA penalties, I'll agree that Mack shouldn't be going anywhere. And I'll give you two reasons that have nothing to do with buyouts, the NCAA, or Mack's (in)abilities...

The first is that clowns are doing the hiring. I have zero confidence that any higher-ups at U of L can find their athletics a$$es with both hands. More than likely, they'd hire someone worse than Mack.

The second is that ANY men's basketball coach coming in here now is set up to fail for financial reasons. Clowns believe this program can be run today at 70% of the budget on which it operated five years ago. There's no free lunch, and that ain't happening...

 

[2330859]

After witnessing the players “checking out” last night, I must confess this situation is worse than I ever thought possible. I believe Mack is being transparent with his own inability to explain much less fix.

 

[Mayoman]

Absent NCAA penalties, I'll agree that Mack shouldn't be going anywhere. And I'll give you two reasons that have nothing to do with buyouts, the NCAA, or Mack's (in)abilities...

The first is that clowns are doing the hiring. I have zero confidence that any higher-ups at U of L can find their athletics a$$es with both hands. More than likely, they'd hire someone worse than Mack.

The second is that ANY men's basketball coach coming in here now is set up to fail for financial reasons. Clowns believe this program can be run today at 70% of the budget on which it operated five years ago. There's no free lunch, and that ain't happening...

I like your points.

I do wish you would change the word clowns to: "the inept powers that be" or TIPTB. It is much more powerful and defining. Similar to the "Krag...he who will remain nameless" phrase of a while back.

Let me share one of my favorite clown jokes. It goes like this:

What do you do when a clown attacks you?

Of course, you go for the jugular.

The Cards need the next Pres and AD to be like that...go for the jugular in fixing this mess. Watcha think???

 

[zipp]

...I do wish you would change the word clowns to: "the inept powers that be" or TIPTB. It is much more powerful and defining. Similar to the "Krag...he who will remain nameless" phrase of a while back....

The Cards need the next Pres and AD to be like that...go for the jugular in fixing this mess. Watcha think???

Thanks for the suggestions.

My general tendency is to use shorthand. "Clowns" is a term for people who both deserve it--for various reasons--and that people know who you're referring to. I'm fine with a substitute that's not too hard to understand.

The key trait in an AD and Prez at the moment is credibility with the larger U of L community. I don't know that style is important. It's a lot more more about who that person is...

 

[Fern Creek Card]

The next president better be thick skinned, tough nosed and willing to stand up to his her bosses.

The next AD better be a damn good salesman or we will be in deeper doodoo.