PJCS expansions needed because of lack of west side donations?

[seashore]

The folks, maybe some of you, put down extra money for lifetime seats at PJCS before it was built.
Because of that, there's got to be a lot of prime seats on the home side/west side that haven't generated any extra money since the early 1990s before football was even played there.
Other schools, maybe UL included, have tried to break those contracts without success, so they have had to develop new ways to make up for that lost revenue. Suites.
I wonder how many seats don't pay a donation? Does lifetime mean life of the donor or forever for those seats?
Thanks, Ellen

 

[wilkie01]

Only if you stay in those seats. I moved sections and now I donate for all 7 of my seats, again. But I do not know the answer to your question.

 

[EasyCard]

The folks, maybe some of you, put down extra money for lifetime seats at PJCS before it was built.
Because of that, there's got to be a lot of prime seats on the home side/west side that haven't generated any extra money since the early 1990s before football was even played there.
Other schools, maybe UL included, have tried to break those contracts without success, so they have had to develop new ways to make up for that lost revenue. Suites.
I wonder how many seats don't pay a donation? Does lifetime mean life of the donor or forever for those seats?
Thanks, Ellen

The blacks seats located in the brown and Williamson club were $10,000 one time gift donation for each seat. I almost certain if ownership of a seat changes hands the donation becomes adjustable.

 

[seashore]

I'm speaking of all the lower seats on the home side of the field. Between 20 or 30 yard lines? After the stadium was built, there were some seats with a one time donation plus an annual donation, I believe. When the east side seats opened up, when we moved to the Big East, the one time donation was waved but the annual donation is $600 per seat per year.
I guess my question is, if you are in a red seat, 40 yard line, west side, and you paid for a 'lifetime' seat, does that end and a donation begins when you give up the seat or is there not a donation ever for those seats?
Just trying to explain the need for suites and therefore more seats will be built on top for big games.
Thanks, Ellen

 

[Rollem Cards]

I have 2 LT seats (SEC 232) and 4 companion seats for 6 seats total and pay no "donation", and have no quilt whatsoever for it.

When we wanted to build the stadium in the mid 90's, THE ONLY WAY we could do it was if UL fans came up with $15 Million down payment.

So, they offered a one time "donation" for a seat, in exchange for the opportunity to purchase said seat (along with 2 "companion seats" in the next lower priced section - IOW 3 seats for one donation) "forever". All season ticket holders at that time were offered this deal. The price ranged from a low of $4000 up to $12,000 (IIRC, there may have been higher, but if there were, I didn't bother looking ) depending on location of course.

My company at the time purchased the seats. That company is long gone, but as long as the invoice is paid, we get the seats. So it's forever as long as somebody wants to pay up. But when I'm gone, I'd say the seats will be too.

(I'd like to know how many of the original "lifetime deals" have already been voided by the buyers? We know the one above, and I'd say there are a lot of others, via death, finances, or even Kragthorp)

(I don't recall if UL ever said what they received from the offer, but it only takes 3,750 seats, at $4000 to make $15 mil. I know there were more than 3,750 buyers. Had to be it seems. If I could do it, there had to be more.)

Now, the UL people who had this dream are long gone, we're big shots in a P5 conference, making money hand over fist,...and the new leaders have looked for ways to renege on that deal.

Trying to get more from the people who afforded them the opportunity to be where we are now. UL wanted to be "big time" in FB, and our money helped get them there. It was a good business deal both ways AFAIC. Sort of. I get PO'd every game when I see tickets being sold for $10, or even given away. That's when I question my "deal".

If the time ever comes that they find a way to make me pay donations again, I will be a Hi Def fan from that point on. Then there will be 6 more $10 tickets in the tunnel.

I paid my dues, and UL has reaped the benefits of it.

 

[American Male]

^^^...Sort of on the line with tickets being sold for $10.00...My son had 4 tickets on the 50 yard line...Section 6 of the UPS Flight Deck...Pretty Darn Good Seats...I've sat with him there a few times...ANYWAY...After 4 years of paying face value he gave them up because he had buddies paying half price for their tickets to the UPS Flight Deck!!!

Seems that once a certain number of Season tickets were sold the rest became an open market price of between 40-50% less for seats in the UPS Flight Deck...Thus, he still attends games but he's paying less for tickets....Granted, he's not sitting in assigned seats anymore, but he still gets to see the games and socialize with his friends.

IMHO, Smart move on his part...Hey, he's still a Young Man working his way up the ladder...So for him to understand the financial part of this, and to use it to his benefit...Well, let's just say I'm proud of him for learning an important lesson...He cut his cost by 40-50%, and STILL gets to attend the games and be a fan!!!

 

[PushupMan]

Louisville is #3 in revenues in the ACC behind FSU and Notre Dame, so we don't NEED to do anything to generate additional revenue. We're expanding the stadium to go from about 10th in stadium capacity in the ACC to 5th.

 

[CardsFirst]

That

Louisville is #3 in revenues in the ACC behind FSU and Notre Dame, so we don't NEED to do anything to generate additional revenue. We're expanding the stadium to go from about 10th in stadium capacity in the ACC to 5th.

That and to boost recruiting. I'm sure they have other projects on the radar that will need funding but I highly doubt they're adding seats to add revenue although it won't hurt. The jump we got in revenue when we joined the ACC was pretty darn good. Tom Jurich's philosophy is if your not improving your going backwards. I'm in section 206 and I pay a donation each year and my seats are fantastic won't be giving them up anytime soon. As a matter of fact I hope to increase my seats from two to six.

 

[mwatson61]

Louisville is #3 in revenues in the ACC behind FSU and Notre Dame, so we don't NEED to do anything to generate additional revenue. We're expanding the stadium to go from about 10th in stadium capacity in the ACC to 5th.

I thought it was to one up UK.

 

[CardsFirst]

I was watching wave 3 news tonight and they had a pretty good story on our expansion, but what's funny as soon as they completed our story they had to follow it with a story talking about SuCks expanding their stadium; old news. Local news cannot help themselves they have to balance everything except when it's in reverse.

 

[zipp]

I studied up on the west side PJCS tickets a long time ago--TWICE...

Seats in the B&W Club were never offered with annual donations, just a lifetime outlay up front of from anywhere between $5 and $20K. The seats in front on the Club between the 20s were offered annual or lifetime. I think they were $2K-6K each OR $200-600 annually when originally priced.

Over the last decade, I've bought three sets of tickets in the B&W Club from sellers for $2.5K-10K each. Best deals were obviously when we were losing under Krags and the start of Strong's tenure.

The license to own annual seats runs as long as the stadium exists. It's part of your estate if you die owning them just like other property. That's spelled out in the contract from the mid-90s. I think U of L now owns some of the B&W seats and remarkets them for annual donations.

They're illiquid as investments go--hard to find buyers. But they cash flow pretty well. If you hook up with a seller and have the cash, you can easily get 5% of your investment per year free and clear from someone else wanting them for a season or a short term commitment. The contract/license actually allows that ("relicensing"). And I recall that you have right of first refusal if you ever decide not to buy the underlying tickets from U of L in a given year. The next year, U of L has to come back to you and offer you the tickets for your license. It works as a right to buy, but not a requirement.

And I don't in any way link U of L's fundraising efforts/needs to a lack of revenue from the lifetime buyers. That may be what U of L is telling people in the modern day sales pitch. U of L will always seek to maximize its revenue regardless of what has happened in the past, good or bad...

 

[teamcanada]

I was watching wave 3 news tonight and they had a pretty good story on our expansion, but what's funny as soon as they completed our story they had to follow it with a story talking about SuCks expanding their stadium; old news. Local news cannot help themselves they have to balance everything except when it's in reverse.

UK didn't expand their stadium. The last remodel of Commonwealth reduced capacity by around 7000 seats.

 

[EasyCard]

I studied up on the west side PJCS tickets a long time ago--TWICE...

Seats in the B&W Club were never offered with annual donations, just a lifetime outlay up front of from anywhere between $5 and $20K. The seats in front on the Club between the 20s were offered annual or lifetime. I think they were $2K-6K each OR $200-600 annually when originally priced.

Over the last decade, I've bought three sets of tickets in the B&W Club from sellers for $2.5K-10K each. Best deals were obviously when we were losing under Krags and the start of Strong's tenure.

The license to own annual seats runs as long as the stadium exists. It's part of your estate if you die owning them just like other property. That's spelled out in the contract from the mid-90s. I think U of L now owns some of the B&W seats and remarkets them for annual donations.

They're illiquid as investments go--hard to find buyers. But they cash flow pretty well. If you hook up with a seller and have the cash, you can easily get 5% of your investment per year free and clear from someone else wanting them for a season or a short term commitment. The contract/license actually allows that ("relicensing"). And I recall that you have right of first refusal if you ever decide not to buy the underlying tickets from U of L in a given year. The next year, U of L has to come back to you and offer you the tickets for your license. It works as a right to buy, but not a requirement.

And I don't in any way link U of L's fundraising efforts/needs to a lack of revenue from the lifetime buyers. That may be what U of L is telling people in the modern day sales pitch. U of L will always seek to maximize its revenue regardless of what has happened in the past, good or bad...

 

[EasyCard]

"The license to own annual seats runs as long as the stadium exists. It's part of your estate if you die owning them just like other property. That's spelled out in the contract from the mid-90s. I think U of L now owns some of the B&W seats and remarkets them for annual donations"

This week keeps getting better and better.

 

[zipp]

EZ, I researched the exact language...

"The Rights purchased pursuant to the Licenses will endure so long as the Stadium is used for athletic events by the University and may be assigned, sold, transferred and devised by will by the Licensees to persons of their choice."

I'll scan the document and upload it later when some of the dust settles on other biz...

 

[CardsFirst]

UK didn't expand their stadium. The last remodel of Commonwealth reduced capacity by around 7000 seats.

I know. The point is they had to follow up our story with a story about sUcK update that happen last year.

 

[zipp]

PJCS Lifetime Contract

Please download and save the file if you want to keep a copy. I'm not sure if I'll leave it here indefinitely...

 

[Guardman]

I studied up on the west side PJCS tickets a long time ago--TWICE...

Seats in the B&W Club were never offered with annual donations, just a lifetime outlay up front of from anywhere between $5 and $20K. The seats in front on the Club between the 20s were offered annual or lifetime. I think they were $2K-6K each OR $200-600 annually when originally priced.

Over the last decade, I've bought three sets of tickets in the B&W Club from sellers for $2.5K-10K each. Best deals were obviously when we were losing under Krags and the start of Strong's tenure.

The license to own annual seats runs as long as the stadium exists. It's part of your estate if you die owning them just like other property. That's spelled out in the contract from the mid-90s. I think U of L now owns some of the B&W seats and remarkets them for annual donations.

They're illiquid as investments go--hard to find buyers. But they cash flow pretty well. If you hook up with a seller and have the cash, you can easily get 5% of your investment per year free and clear from someone else wanting them for a season or a short term commitment. The contract/license actually allows that ("relicensing"). And I recall that you have right of first refusal if you ever decide not to buy the underlying tickets from U of L in a given year. The next year, U of L has to come back to you and offer you the tickets for your license. It works as a right to buy, but not a requirement.

And I don't in any way link U of L's fundraising efforts/needs to a lack of revenue from the lifetime buyers. That may be what U of L is telling people in the modern day sales pitch. U of L will always seek to maximize its revenue regardless of what has happened in the past, good or bad...

FWIW, Zipp, a little bit of the data you use in this post is a little off. Also there is a matter of resale qualification, which is significant. I won't get into either matter here, but you could provide a useful service to rights owners by providing a rundown on all of that. Guardman

 

[zipp]

FWIW, Zipp, a little bit of the data you use in this post is a little off. Also there is a matter of resale qualification, which is significant. I won't get into either matter here, but you could provide a useful service to rights owners by providing a rundown on all of that. Guardman

I was quoting figures and prices off the top of my head, but most are pretty close to the mark.

And I have no idea what you're talking about as far as "resale qualification". The contract linked above contains all of the provisions, and U of L has no authority to change the terms of that contract. If you know otherwise, please provide the details...

 

[Guardman]

Zipp, it is my understanding that PJCS seat licenses are transferable only once. An original owner may sell the license to another party. By the terms, any second owner party may not transfer the license.

I purchased my two lifetime seats from the original buyer/owner. I paid the owner exactly what he had paid for them. The black seats are side by side at the edge of the B&W club, at about the south 41 yard line. One seat is one seat 'outside'. The other is one seat 'inside'. One inside seat was $25,000. The outside seat was $10,000.

My seat licenses have no real transfer value any longer. I could sell my game tickets (single or season) on an aftermarket site, or in another state, for whatever amount I choose. But I cannot sell/convey my license.

Guardman

 

[Rollem Cards]

Some good info here.

I have the two LT seats and have no idea where the paperwork is.

But then, I've had no thoughts of giving them up. Hopefully, the family would keep buying the tickets if something happened to me.

But if they don't want them, and could sell our rights, I guess I should look into that.

 

[zipp]

Zipp, it is my understanding that PJCS seat licenses are transferable only once. An original owner may sell the license to another party. By the terms, any second owner party may not transfer the license...

My seat licenses have no real transfer value any longer. I could sell my game tickets (single or season) on an aftermarket site, or in another state, for whatever amount I choose. But I cannot sell/convey my license.

Guardman

Well, I'm not a lawyer, but that ain't what the contract says...

From 10.1, "Licensee. Licensee shall have the right to assign, transfer, sublease, license, mortgage, pledge, hypothecate, grant a security interest in or encumber...the Seats, by notice delivered to the Licensor in the form attached hereto as Schedule 3."

From Schedule 1, "'Licensee' means the party or parties...so identified at the signature line(s) hereof, and such successors and assigns as are permitted hereby."

From Schedule 3, "______, Licensee (the 'Licensee') under a Stadium Seat Rights Agreement between Licensee and ULAA, Inc. (the 'Licensor'), hereby gives notice to Licensor that Licensee has assigned all of its rights under the Stadium Seat Rights Agreement to______, and that from that date hereof, ________, shall be regarded as the Licensee under the Stadium Seat Rights Agreement and be entitled to all rights and privileges associated herewith."

(My emphasis added.)

That's two different places--the 2nd and 3rd citation--that clearly say the transferee becomes the licensee with "all rights and privileges". The first excerpt furthermore says that the licensee can himself, not just transfer, but LICENSE. When you bought your seats, you were "licensed" by the former Licensee and per Sch 3.

So who left you with your "understanding"?? Tell me a specific person at U of L, and I'm contacting him/her on Monday. My next question--that you don't have to answer--is WTH were you thinking paying that kinda money for something that died along with you??...

 

[Guardman]

Well, I'm not a lawyer, but that ain't what the contract says...

From 10.1, "Licensee. Licensee shall have the right to assign, transfer, sublease, license, mortgage, pledge, hypothecate, grant a security interest in or encumber...the Seats, by notice delivered to the Licensor in the form attached hereto as Schedule 3."

From Schedule 1, "'Licensee' means the party or parties...so identified at the signature line(s) hereof, and such successors and assigns as are permitted hereby."

From Schedule 3, "______, Licensee (the 'Licensee') under a Stadium Seat Rights Agreement between Licensee and ULAA, Inc. (the 'Licensor'), hereby gives notice to Licensor that Licensee has assigned all of its rights under the Stadium Seat Rights Agreement to______, and that from that date hereof, ________, shall be regarded as the Licensee under the Stadium Seat Rights Agreement and be entitled to all rights and privileges associated herewith."

(My emphasis added.)

That's two different places--the 2nd and 3rd citation--that clearly say the transferee becomes the licensee with "all rights and privileges". The first excerpt furthermore says that the licensee can himself, not just transfer, but LICENSE. When you bought your seats, you were "licensed" by the former Licensee and per Sch 3.

So who left you with your "understanding"?? Tell me a specific person at U of L, and I'm contacting him/her on Monday. My next question--that you don't have to answer--is WTH were you thinking paying that kinda money for something that died along with you??...

Thanks, Zipp.

My main trust/will lawyer, plus a senior representative of UofL CAF.

As for paying $35,000 to purchase the licenses for two seats. I figured, and it seems reasonable so far, that I would own and use them for 25-30 years. So that works out to maybe $1250-$1350 per year. For two seats total. Or about $650 per year per seat if I live and use them 25-30 years. In 10 years from now the individual ticket prices per game will easily overtake the average amortized seat license purchase price. 15 years from now, the amortized seat license will essentially be worth 'nothing' and the ticket price will represent most all of the cost. And that includes to some degree a revaluation effect of a purchase made 15 years ago (basically a lost opportunity cost if I had invested $35,000 at say 5-6%, rather than bought the licenses.). PLUS, I got the use of the seats, which I would not have otherwise received.

For those who are following this open chat, and are thinking about buying a perpetual-type seat license from UofL or from a secondary source, make sure that the explicit language protecting your resale rights which you prefer to use is placed in the agreement and that the agreement clearly states that any prior language which would abrogate your resale rights is ignored and is trumped by your language.

 

[zipp]

Thanks, Zipp.

My main trust/will lawyer, plus a senior representative of UofL CAF.

As for paying $35,000 to purchase the licenses for two seats. I figured, and it seems reasonable so far, that I would own and use them for 25-30 years. So that works out to maybe $1250-$1350 per year. For two seats total. Or about $650 per year per seat if I live and use them 25-30 years. In 10 years from now the individual ticket prices per game will easily overtake the average amortized seat license purchase price. 15 years from now, the amortized seat license will essentially be worth 'nothing' and the ticket price will represent most all of the cost. And that includes to some degree a revaluation effect of a purchase made 15 years ago (basically a lost opportunity cost if I had invested $35,000 at say 5-6%, rather than bought the licenses.). PLUS, I got the use of the seats, which I would not have otherwise received.

For those who are following this open chat, and are thinking about buying a perpetual-type seat license from UofL or from a secondary source, make sure that the explicit language protecting your resale rights which you prefer to use is placed in the agreement and that the agreement clearly states that any prior language which would abrogate your resale rights is ignored and is trumped by your language.

Good up front analysis, but you're entitled to a lot more than you described IMO. Would you care to disclose--to me personally or in this thread--the name of the "senior representative of U of L CAF staff"? That person will be my starting point. Do you recall if the language in the linked contract was discussed and explained any other way than I did in my prior post? My email address is kzipperle@mail.com.

It has been no secret for some time that U of L has sought a way to get around the lifetime element of these licenses. So what you're telling me is not a huge surprise although I haven't heard about anything being put into practice. I'm counting on pushback when I start making phone calls.

You did the wise thing--and I didn't--by researching this fully when you purchased. All I did was have Sch 3 completed by the prior licensee and submit it to U of L. I'm not even sure I kept a copy. Now, I realize the safe thing to do is have terms spelled out in greater detail if I buy anymore of them. (I've bought these at three different times!)

I'm not too worried about enforcing the contract provisions however. I have paid invoices on file dating back as long as ten years proving ownership. And there are still plenty of original licensees around to survey for signed copies of this contract. U of L's own records should show that, although they may have to be subpoenaed.

My second phone call, assuming the first goes as expected, will be to my attorney. "Injunctive relief" and "class action" should get her inspired! Thanks for sharing your info...

 

[Guardman]

Zipp, I sent a message to your email. Guardman

 

[EasyCard]

PJCS Lifetime Contract

Please download and save the file if you want to keep a copy. I'm not sure if I'll leave it here indefinitely...

thank you