I bet none of you watched any cbb last evening multiple top teams lost to inferior opponents. Vols have way more talent than Fl who were also without 3 of the best players and blew out Tenn . So if you think it's a Mack thing you need to just stop calling yourself a bb fan because its obvious you know nothing about it. Just acting on emotion.
Mack cant coach crap crowd
- Thread starter REDFISTFURY3
- Start date
Mack isn't a bad coach. He's a very good one. The thing is we are used to great ones. I hope he gets there. Right now, he isn't.
Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news outside of coach K,Boeheim, Roy ,and Rick that are still in the game
Their is no more great coaches for the foreseeable future .That will grace this school or any other . Alot of top tier elite types however none of the those are of those guys caliber. So Cards fans are just going to have too deal with it moving forward. Whether Its Mack or whomever they will all be of similar talent level. However I'm sure alot think that Brad is walking through the door or Wright . I'M just glad I can be a realist about it with a straight face . But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Their is no more great coaches for the foreseeable future .That will grace this school or any other . Alot of top tier elite types however none of the those are of those guys caliber. So Cards fans are just going to have too deal with it moving forward. Whether Its Mack or whomever they will all be of similar talent level. However I'm sure alot think that Brad is walking through the door or Wright . I'M just glad I can be a realist about it with a straight face . But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Mack is proven that he's a good coach. You don't get to his level and not be a good coach with his records. Now, is he a great coach? Is he on the path to become a great coach? The book is being written.
We're used to Denny Crum & Rick Pitino, 2 of the best to ever do it. 2 Coaches that won multiple national titles. So is it fair to compare him to guys on that level?
Yes & No. If it was easy to get a HOF coach, we'd do it all the time. But, we are a national power. We've won 3 national titles. We essentially forced out Denny Crum when he slipped because we demanded more and we got Rick. Some of you are too critical, but some of you forget who we are as a program.
Our roster has talent, so we can't use the excuse of probation & it's year 3 so he's had some time.
We have one 5-Star
We have the #1 Ranked Grad-Transfer
We have six 4-Stars
We have three 3-Stars
And 1 more grad transfer
2 of our guys were top 50 players
3 other guys were top 100 players (meaning 5 total)
3 others were top 150 players (meaning 8 total)
3 Seniors
6 Second-year players
3 Freshman
So the pros and cons?
2 of those seniors have been injured all year. So 9 of the 10 guys are under-classmen.
Only 1 of the upperclassmen have been in the program. He has only had 2 classes of his own recruits.
But, there is enough talent on this roster and you could make a case more talented than some of Rick's
8 of our 9 underclassmen were top 150 recruits. Slaz was the only one that wasn't top 150, & we see he was overlooked. Carlik is as good as any 5 star freshman, actually better than most. Even with Charles and Malik out, it's still a talented roster. We even have 3 more top 100 recruits & the #1 juco player coming in next season.
The good news is that it shows Mack is able to bring in good recruits. Seems he can evaluate lesser guys seen with Q Slaz. His recruits have been improving & playing well early. The talent level of the roster is good enough. So he's had a good roster and we've been a good team the last 3 years, not great but good. He didn't get a recruiting class year 1 and only 1 of Rick's guys is here for year 3 as a senior and he has no juniors. He's had to get Grad transfers in early. This is really the first year of his system.
So now the question comes down to this, can he coach & develop these guys to another level? Are we a program that is gonna compete for a title every year, or do we need to build and have luck go are way on guys coming back or maybe a good transfer/recruit to come. Is it a process that we can trust like Rick's or does he need every little thing go his way?
We have a good young roster, but lets see what he does next year. We've made progress this year, but we probably will lose Carlik, DJ, Sam, & Malik. So we'll have a new young backcourt, but all of "his guys" up and down a balanced roster.
There's levels.
He's probably not Rick, Coach K, or Denny and it's hard to expect that
Maybe he can be a Tom Izzo? Consistently building a team to compete every 2-3 years like clockwork
Could he be a Jim Boehiem or Gary Williams? Consistent winners, not elite or best, but great coaches.
Or? Maybe he's a Tubby Smith, a good coach that wins games but isn't gonna take you to the next level.
Hopefully he's not a Tom Crean, good/ok coach that can develop & recruit well, but just not a high level coach
He's won and managed well in a tough circumstance. He's a good recruiter and seems to develop talent well. High character too. But, we need to see if he's just good enough for the tournament every year or can he compete for titles regularly. Sometimes you need to see if they can grow into the role with time. Jay Wright wasn't great, but they were patient and it paid off. We just need to see what he can do, by year 5 we'll truly see what his ceiling can be as a coach.
We're used to Denny Crum & Rick Pitino, 2 of the best to ever do it. 2 Coaches that won multiple national titles. So is it fair to compare him to guys on that level?
Yes & No. If it was easy to get a HOF coach, we'd do it all the time. But, we are a national power. We've won 3 national titles. We essentially forced out Denny Crum when he slipped because we demanded more and we got Rick. Some of you are too critical, but some of you forget who we are as a program.
Our roster has talent, so we can't use the excuse of probation & it's year 3 so he's had some time.
We have one 5-Star
We have the #1 Ranked Grad-Transfer
We have six 4-Stars
We have three 3-Stars
And 1 more grad transfer
2 of our guys were top 50 players
3 other guys were top 100 players (meaning 5 total)
3 others were top 150 players (meaning 8 total)
3 Seniors
6 Second-year players
3 Freshman
So the pros and cons?
2 of those seniors have been injured all year. So 9 of the 10 guys are under-classmen.
Only 1 of the upperclassmen have been in the program. He has only had 2 classes of his own recruits.
But, there is enough talent on this roster and you could make a case more talented than some of Rick's
8 of our 9 underclassmen were top 150 recruits. Slaz was the only one that wasn't top 150, & we see he was overlooked. Carlik is as good as any 5 star freshman, actually better than most. Even with Charles and Malik out, it's still a talented roster. We even have 3 more top 100 recruits & the #1 juco player coming in next season.
The good news is that it shows Mack is able to bring in good recruits. Seems he can evaluate lesser guys seen with Q Slaz. His recruits have been improving & playing well early. The talent level of the roster is good enough. So he's had a good roster and we've been a good team the last 3 years, not great but good. He didn't get a recruiting class year 1 and only 1 of Rick's guys is here for year 3 as a senior and he has no juniors. He's had to get Grad transfers in early. This is really the first year of his system.
So now the question comes down to this, can he coach & develop these guys to another level? Are we a program that is gonna compete for a title every year, or do we need to build and have luck go are way on guys coming back or maybe a good transfer/recruit to come. Is it a process that we can trust like Rick's or does he need every little thing go his way?
We have a good young roster, but lets see what he does next year. We've made progress this year, but we probably will lose Carlik, DJ, Sam, & Malik. So we'll have a new young backcourt, but all of "his guys" up and down a balanced roster.
There's levels.
He's probably not Rick, Coach K, or Denny and it's hard to expect that
Maybe he can be a Tom Izzo? Consistently building a team to compete every 2-3 years like clockwork
Could he be a Jim Boehiem or Gary Williams? Consistent winners, not elite or best, but great coaches.
Or? Maybe he's a Tubby Smith, a good coach that wins games but isn't gonna take you to the next level.
Hopefully he's not a Tom Crean, good/ok coach that can develop & recruit well, but just not a high level coach
He's won and managed well in a tough circumstance. He's a good recruiter and seems to develop talent well. High character too. But, we need to see if he's just good enough for the tournament every year or can he compete for titles regularly. Sometimes you need to see if they can grow into the role with time. Jay Wright wasn't great, but they were patient and it paid off. We just need to see what he can do, by year 5 we'll truly see what his ceiling can be as a coach.
I’d much rather have a CCM than Mr Hyperbole. Any time and any day.
GO CARDS!!!
GO CARDS!!!
I like him a lot, he's got a different style of play and when he can get his guys established it'll bear fruit. Patience is not in style these days; but even during the transition to his type of player, who I think is very different than CRP but much closer to Denny, he's shown flexibility in his scheme. Id love to see him use the high post more, it seems interior passing is an area of emphasis. But the current set up is very nice. Add experience to his style of player with the Cardinals draw/prominence and great things will happen. Let's not forget the vail of uncertainty over the program. Time people.
These type of comments kill me. Why? I remember the crowd that wanted Pitino gone. Said the game had past him by and he couldn’t recruit. That was here several years after he got here. Your right very few coaches start as great ones not Denny and not Rick either
Mark Few, Bill Self and Jay Wright aren't exactly chopped liver as coaches. CCM's place in the coaching ranks is still being written.
Back to your OP, top level teams inexplicably losing to supposedly inferior teams seems to be the norm this year. I came to this conclusion the other night when Minnesota blew out Michigan. I understand how Michigan could lose at Williams Arena, but to get blown out as they did? I attribute the majority to COVID creating to the uncertainty of irregular practice participation and player availability.
I am placing an asterisk on the whole season. I have no idea what is going to happen on any given night. This is the first time that I've felt that way in over 60 years following college hoops.
It's also hard to make a fair judgement on Mack's ability to recruit right now with the NCAA sanctions hanging over the program's head.
IMO, just guessing, this program is about to get bent over by the NCAA. Already dealing with these issues, Mack has done pretty well. This guy is excited to be here. He has gone out of his way to buy into the tradition and connect with former Cards. He deserves and warrants a long rope before getting after him, again, just my opinion.
Has he given some head scratching strategy in some games? Maybe? Maybe not. Fans are gonna b!tch about all things, it's what fans do. Is he a "get your program to the next level" guy? Who knows, hard to say given these bizarre circumstances he's dealing with.
Has he given some head scratching strategy in some games? Maybe? Maybe not. Fans are gonna b!tch about all things, it's what fans do. Is he a "get your program to the next level" guy? Who knows, hard to say given these bizarre circumstances he's dealing with.
I believe and think that Coach Mack is a really good coach but I think if you want to compare or mention Denny or Rick in the same sentence, you can’t just look at won-loss records without considering this. I took their first 8 years as a HC.
Mack 215-97
Crum 186-52
Pitino 147-88
Mack’s the best right? Well, consider their ages. Mack was 40 when he got his first HC job, Denny was 34 and Rick was a mere 26.
In those first 8 years, Crum went to 2 FFs and 3 sweet 16’s. Although Ricks record is not nearly as good, by age 40, he too went to 2 Final Fours.
I know what people are thinking... Jay Wright. It’s not like he wasn’t a good coach before he won 2 NC or even Billy Donovan.
I just think there are a lot of good coaches out there. It’s a fine line and only history will say it they were great, but guys like Self, Few, and Bennett are guys who have their spots already in the Hall of Fame..
Mack 215-97
Crum 186-52
Pitino 147-88
Mack’s the best right? Well, consider their ages. Mack was 40 when he got his first HC job, Denny was 34 and Rick was a mere 26.
In those first 8 years, Crum went to 2 FFs and 3 sweet 16’s. Although Ricks record is not nearly as good, by age 40, he too went to 2 Final Fours.
I know what people are thinking... Jay Wright. It’s not like he wasn’t a good coach before he won 2 NC or even Billy Donovan.
I just think there are a lot of good coaches out there. It’s a fine line and only history will say it they were great, but guys like Self, Few, and Bennett are guys who have their spots already in the Hall of Fame..
Denny wasn't coming in to a national power, but he was a protégé of John Wooden. There was definitely championship pedigree. Rick Pitino had a title, multiple Final Fours, & coached the Knicks & Celtics. Mack has been a solid coach at Xavier. A up and coming coach & maybe the best option. Unless there's a homerun, who can you get.
The unreasonable people here thought we could lure Stevens & Donovan away from the NBA. Some thought that we could go out & get Jay Wright to leave his national title program for here, even after he'd turned down NBA jobs. I think now we all know why Greg Marshall was NEVER considered. And Chris Beard, revisionist history as no one hear was clamoring for a guy after 1 year at Texas Tech.
The only one on the market that would've been a home-run hire was Bruce Pearl, but there was a little thing about the FBI Scandal he was involved in at the time. Also, Kelvin Sampson would've been ok but he had recruiting violations (BS ones) and is a bit older.
So who were the options? Experience with a recruiting edge, preferably younger & willing to face sanctions to start. A guy who has a decent track record of building a program long-term. So Mick Cronin, Rick Barnes, Eric Mussellman, Nate Oats, Shaka Smart, Chris Holtman, Mike White, Steve Prohm, Kevin Willard, the Hurley brothers, who else? Those were the only realistic options at the time.
Chris Mack had a 9 year run at Xavier, a good program. He was coming of an Elite 8 in 2017 & a #1 Seed & Big East title in 2018 (Won it with Nova in the conference). Just under 50, so not too young. He's from this area & wanted to be here. 4 of his 9 years he made it to at least the Sweet 16.
Personally, some of you hated Cronin but I liked him, but he wasn't popular here & was a Rick guy. Other than him Mack was the ONLY choice and the BEST choice at the time. Will he be Rick or Denny, probably not as only 15 coaches EVER have won more than 2 titles. That's a high standard. But, the ability to consistently win a national title is the important thing.
The great coaches can find a way, it's year 3 for Mack. I've seen good & bad. Chris Beard took no time getting Texas Tech established & also had his mid-major rocking. Nate Oats had Buffalo looking like a top team & in year 2 it seems Bama it taking off. Rick took Providence to the Final 4 & had a probation riddled Kentucky taking Duke to the limit by his 3rd year.
But then again, Jay Wright went to 3 straight NIT's before his first tournament appearance at Nova. Tony Bennett missed the tournament his first 2 years, went out the first round his 3rd, and then missed in his 4th year, but have finished the year ranked every year since.
I think you can tell if progress is being made. I think you also can find a balance of demand and patience.
Is he putting out good & competitive basketball teams?-YES
Is he bringing in talented recruits & transfers?-YES
Are players showing growth/development?-YES
So now, the question is going to be his ability to put out a title contending team-INCOMPLETE
BOZICH | Has Calipari lost his mojo? Have Coach K, other Hall of Famers?
It's not a great year to be a Hall of Famer.
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Good post and response. I’m not totally in disagreement but I will respond to a couple of good points you made. Of the first group of coaches you mentioned, never did I have any expectations of getting them here. Now of the 2nd group of coaches that’s a pretty good list of guys I had questions about and maybe a few others. My issue is how many of them were interviewed or even asked if they had any interest in the job? Did we assume if nobody was contacting us, they weren’t interested because of possible NCAA infractions?
It was well known that Mack wanted to be here, especially his wife. Why not, we are definitely a major step up from Xavier because of our tradition and we play in the best facility in the country REGARDLESS of any penalties that might come. $4 million reasons also help.
Did we overlook anybody simply because Mack was somewhat successful and he made it known he wanted to be here? Did we rule out guys like Cronin, Williard, Keatts just because of their history with Pitino? Did we even consider them without asking?
My point in my previous email is that 9/10 years should be plenty of time to find out what kind of coach he’ll be. Like you said, he’s a good coach but so are quite a few of them.
I agree with you about Cronin. I think he’s a good coach as well but because he coached for a rival, several didn’t even want to consider him. Just for a second ask yourself what kind of talent could he bring in, would he be worse? At least he might be playing the type of basketball, we as Cardinals fans have always loved.
So to finish, I think several of those coaches would have check marks to those questions you asked. Maybe the one question is would have any of those coaches gotten past Minnesota.
The game has changed more than most appreciate; comparing coaches is unfair to either one. Denny & Rick will both be recognized up there with the very best college coaches of all time. Chris is as good right now as any college coach in America; particularly when one is mindful that he is competing in the ACC with a number of serious limitations; not the least is the NCAA Cloud hanging over every recruiting period.
The Miami loss was unexpected, and clearly a result of poor effort and lack of focus. FSU on the other hand, is just a horrible matchup physically for UL; their length, athleticism and depth make the Seminoles a dangerous 40 minute challenge for any opponent.
The Miami loss was unexpected, and clearly a result of poor effort and lack of focus. FSU on the other hand, is just a horrible matchup physically for UL; their length, athleticism and depth make the Seminoles a dangerous 40 minute challenge for any opponent.
Denny came into a program that had had a record of consecutive 20 win seasons when they played 12 to 15 less games a year! Peck Hickman had built a great program at a metroversity with less than 12,000 students. Denny inherited a team that was already built, Jim Price, Henry Bacon, Vilcheck, Jerry King, Ron Thomas, Craig Lawson, and more.
I have to admit Sat against Miami, I made the comment aloud because I felt it...I miss Pitino ball. Hadn’t felt like that in a long long time.
Then I remembered the drama that came with it (besides the 3 strikes) and got over it. Until Mon night, then....what SHOULD have been kicked in.
Then I remembered the drama that came with it (besides the 3 strikes) and got over it. Until Mon night, then....what SHOULD have been kicked in.
I can easily separate Rick’s coaching ability and style from his personal life and baggage. I am definitely not advocating for Rick. Way past that, but I loved our up tempo pace. The 10-12 point runs. Blocking shots and run out dunks! Quickest way to score is to beat the other team down the floor BEFORE they can get set up on D.
Mack putting DJ on Hurt in the second half was key in the win. David essentially shut him down
Really hard to compare Mack to other coaches. The NCAA cloud has taken its toll on recruiting. Once that is done we can get a better idea.
It was a good adjustment putting Johnson on Hurt. Bigs that aren’t true post up players can struggle with smaller defenders. GA Tech did the same thing to Nwora last year.
It was a good adjustment putting Johnson on Hurt. Bigs that aren’t true post up players can struggle with smaller defenders. GA Tech did the same thing to Nwora last year.
I will give Mack a lot of credit fro 2 things. First, he started Slaz instead of Sam. Not a really big thing but we avoided another slow start. Slaz has more energy than Sam and Sam was able to bring production off the bench, 6 pts and 7 Rebs.
The bigger decision was putting DJ on Hurt. Changed their momentum.
The bigger decision was putting DJ on Hurt. Changed their momentum.
I think Mack is a very good coach who is evolving, learning by trail and error. He didn't have the luxury of mentoring under a John Wooden type of coach. The longer he coaches the better he is getting. I am glad he is our coach and I hope he stays a long time here.
I agree on the start thing but later in the game - particularly in the 2nd half - QS was getting abused defensively. Whoever he was was checking - dook ran a play for that guy and was successful about 90% of the time.
Also Mineland continues to look completely lost - and afraid. Hope it changes but thus far, he doesn’t look like he belongs at this level. UofL was basically playing 4 on 5 offensively when he was in.
I’m not sorry pitino is gone for multiple reasons but yes, his style is significantly more pleasing to watch than Mack’s. Perhaps if we played defense more like UVA, playing offense like them wouldn’t be so bad.
Remember Rick's players had years playing with each other it's crazy to think of it in this way but it was almost a different era. His teams were more cohesive for a lot of reasons, one being he is a genius the other being familiarity and a system that had guys that fit it well.
I wonder if the Slaz start was a motivating ploy to get Sam in gear, and not meant as a permanent move? Haven't followed the team enough this year to know. Thoughts on that?
I wonder if the Slaz start was a motivating ploy to get Sam in gear, and not meant as a permanent move? Haven't followed the team enough this year to know. Thoughts on that?
Mack wanted to avoid another slow start. Knew he needed a change. Can’t really sit Jones, Johnson or Withers. Davis usually brings energy so that only left Sam... Slaz was really the only alternative as Nickleberry and Minlend haven’t play enough.
Sam has shown that he doesn't deserve to start...or really get many minutes. He hurts us more than not when in the game. Gets beat on defense, is rarely in position to rebound and is weak on offense. Developing the other guys would seem like the priority, especially since we seem to play better when they are in the game.
lol
Sam has played in 11 games out of 13 he is 4th in min played at 26.9pg ,4th in pts 8.9pg, 2nd in rebs 6.3pg , 2nd highest fg pct 48.1 of all the players that play. So yell Sam is detriment to the team freaking clowns.
If anything Sam needs to shoot more.
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I have been hard on SW this year but that young man had 2 big rebounds and dove to tie up the ball with 5 seconds left. Those are the plays I want to see!! He can play and is a decent mid range scorer, just play all out all the time!!
There's room for opinions. Yours doesn't justify calling other people clowns. Maybe take a look in the mirror.
Are there there ugly, nasty, stanky, trick-ass ho's in the dorms?-AW HELL NAW.
Two Top 5 classes so far, right? Not bad, considering all. Young team this year, wildly inconsistent. I'm not going to over-react to anything until the season is over. I will say this team does not have the killer instinct to come back from being way down or to put away an opponent that's on the ropes; this seems to be a common denominator across all 3 Mack seasons.
