Louisville and Michigan

[TheRealVille]

Just eleven years ago the Cardinals and the Wolverines were playing for the national championship. Both programs were elite with rich histories of success.

Today, both have just 8 wins and are led by a former player who has no business being a head coach at such a top program.

Juwon Howard and Kenny Payne have and are destroying their programs. Both will most likely be fired this month, proving hiring a former player is not exactly in a schools best interest.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Juwon Howard and Kenny Payne have and are destroying their programs. Both will most likely be fired this month, proving hiring a former player is not exactly in a schools best interest.

Howard coached them to the E8 and S16. He even had a 1 seed there. Your analysis here leaves out those things.

Kevin Ollie won a title.

Hubert Davis has already been to the title game he's in his 3rd year and has a borderline T10 team.

Scheyer seems to be doing okay in his 2nd year as a borderline T10 team.

Matt Painter has the #2 team in the country and was a 1 seed last year.

So a third of the T10 teams are coached by former players.

Autry is doing ok for Syracuse. Holloway is doing okay for Seton Hall.

Alot of fans overplay their hand against the former players as being successful head coaches angle. Some fail, some succeed.

It's not like they are hitting 2 out of 100 success rate.

But yes, Kenny didn't have it, and like many other coaches Howard is going to get the pink slip.

 

[vivid_red]

Howard coached them to the E8 and S16. He even had a 1 seed there. Your analysis here leaves out those things.

Kevin Ollie won a title.

Hubert Davis has already been to the title game he's in his 3rd year and has a borderline T10 team.

Scheyer seems to be doing okay in his 2nd year as a borderline T10 team.

Matt Painter has the #2 team in the country and was a 1 seed last year.

So a third of the T10 teams are coached by former players.

Autry is doing ok for Syracuse. Holloway is doing okay for Seton Hall.

Alot of fans overplay their hand against the former players as being successful head coaches angle. Some fail, some succeed.

It's not like they are hitting 2 out of 100 success rate.

But yes, Kenny didn't have it, and like many other coaches Howard is going to get the pink slip.

Great summary, Denny Crum and Rick played college ball. So it really depends on the person

 

[CardsDan]

Great summary, Denny Crum and Rick played college ball. So it really depends on the person

Wooden, Rupp, Knight, K, Dean Smith all played college basketball. The vast majority of great coaches were former players.

 

[BPGhost]

Wooden, Rupp, Knight, K, Dean Smith all played college basketball. The vast majority of great coaches were former players.

That’s true in general however it seems less true when considering guys that were high level D1 players. There seems to be a fallacy in thinking that because someone was able to perform at a high level as a player - that they would make a good coach or HC. I also believe that because playing at a high level came easier to some of those guys - they didn’t have to understand the intricacies involved and, they think that it will be as easy for others.

Being able to successfully convey ideas and principles to others is far more difficult than executing them yourself.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Mark Pope BYU, Doug Collins son at NU, Hoiberg at Neb... on and on... former players, doing ok at places very difficult to win at also.

I believe these jobs are simply not as coveted as they once were. The elite HC of our time retired or are in the NBA. This is leaving a lot of jobs needing filling.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Tony Bennett former player.

 

[CardsDan]

That’s true in general however it seems less true when considering guys that were high level D1 players. There seems to be a fallacy in thinking that because someone was able to perform at a high level as a player - that they would make a good coach or HC. I also believe that because playing at a high level came easier to some of those guys - they didn’t have to understand the intricacies involved and, they think that it will be as easy for others.

Being able to successfully convey ideas and principles to others is far more difficult than executing them yourself.

Even if one was under that fallacy, Kenny Payne was not a high performing player in my recollection. He contributed little to the 86 championship as a freshman. He wasn't a standout in his sophomore and junior years. He had a good senior season enough to get drafted in the first round and his pro career was pretty nondescript. "In four NBA seasons from 1989 to 1993 for the Philadelphia 76ers, he averaged 3.5 points and 1.2 rebounds per game. He was waived by the team in January 1993 after failing to live up to expectations."

 

[BPGhost]

Even if one was under that fallacy, Kenny Payne was not a high performing player in my recollection. He contributed little to the 86 championship as a freshman. He wasn't a standout in his sophomore and junior years. He had a good senior season enough to get drafted in the first round and his pro career was pretty nondescript. "In four NBA seasons from 1989 to 1993 for the Philadelphia 76ers, he averaged 3.5 points and 1.2 rebounds per game. He was waived by the team in January 1993 after failing to live up to expectations."

I agree - Payne is a player that is in that gray area. A player who had more potential than what his performance resulted in. With that said, being one of only 25 people on the planet to be drafted in the 1st round by the NBA indicates what type of skills they believed he possessed.

 

[Louisvillian]

As in most cases, it’s a little bit of both.

For every former player who has had success as a head coach there’s a Chris Mullin, Kyle Macy, Travis Ford, Patrick Ewing, Bobby Hurley and our own Danny Manning.

 

[Mike'sMarbles]

I don't think the Kenny Payne situation has proven anything other than don't hire Kenny Payne for a head coaching job at a top Div 1 school.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

So if you break down the #'s you will probably find the success rate on a hire is something like 15--25% hit.

Former players are more than likely not performing worse than that. We've already got 9 former players that are coaching well this year listed ITT there are others. I forgot Danny Hurley is a former player.

So 4 teams in the top 10 are coached by former players.

How many former players do you think are coaching? Howard, Payne, Woodson are 3 bad ones without diving too deep at first glance. I'm sure

Yeah, I agree with Marbles. Don't hire Payne.

Now, if we are saying don't hire NBA All-Star former players maybe there's something there.

End of the day, don't hire Ewing, Drexler, or Mullin either.

 

[2330859]

Perhaps just hindsight, but Kenny’s resume was absent of anything that would suggest that he was capable of being a HC period.

 

[TheRealVille]

Howard coached them to the E8 and S16. He even had a 1 seed there. Your analysis here leaves out those things.

Kevin Ollie won a title.

Hubert Davis has already been to the title game he's in his 3rd year and has a borderline T10 team.

Scheyer seems to be doing okay in his 2nd year as a borderline T10 team.

Matt Painter has the #2 team in the country and was a 1 seed last year.

So a third of the T10 teams are coached by former players.

Autry is doing ok for Syracuse. Holloway is doing okay for Seton Hall.

Alot of fans overplay their hand against the former players as being successful head coaches angle. Some fail, some succeed.

It's not like they are hitting 2 out of 100 success rate.

But yes, Kenny didn't have it, and like many other coaches Howard is going to get the pink slip.

Well, I do believe had KP had the players Howard inherited, it may have been the later years when everyone realized the coach is not as good as once thought.

Imagine KP winning 20 games his first season and having some success because of the talent, only to see him struggle like he is now in year 4 and on.

It's true there are successful players turned head coach, but it seems to me it usually doesn't pan out for the most part. I remember Johnny Dawkins was it, the heir apparent to Coach K, but K didn't want to retire so Dawkins moved on into mediocrity.

KP however is in a class by himself. He should have never even been considered for the job.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Well, I do believe had KP had the players Howard inherited, it may have been the later years when everyone realized the coach is not as good as once thought.

Imagine KP winning 20 games his first season and having some success because of the talent, only to see him struggle like he is now in year 4 and on.

It's true there are successful players turned head coach, but it seems to me it usually doesn't pan out for the most part. I remember Johnny Dawkins was it, the heir apparent to Coach K, but K didn't want to retire so Dawkins moved on into mediocrity.

KP however is in a class by himself. He should have never even been considered for the job.

Nobody is trying to support Kenny Payne in these responses.

We are just pointing out the countless examples of former players that have done good jobs as head coaches. 40% of your current T10 are coached by a former player. Something like 12-15 successful seasons this year for former players turned head coach.

That's a ton. There are probably a handful more. No biggie.

 

[TheRealVille]

I'm not sure, did Juwon Howard head coach anywhere before Michigan? I'm not necessarily discounting former players coaching their school if they worked their way up the ladder. After all, that's how a school can evaluate a coach. There was none of that with KP. I'm not sure about Juwon Howard.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I'm not sure, did Juwon Howard head coach anywhere before Michigan? I'm not necessarily discounting former players coaching their school if they worked their way up the ladder. After all, that's how a school can evaluate a coach. There was none of that with KP. I'm not sure about Juwon Howard.

They both coached as assistants long enough to be evaluated. Howard in the NBA, KP with UK, Oregon, and the NBA.

Majority of hires fail.

I'm not sure how much guys like KP and Scheyer really learn from watching HOF coaches shake the hands of NBA Lottery picks.

Payne was just foolish to accept the job without having NBA Lottery picks to lean on.

Hopefully UofL makes a change and they grab a guy that can get it done.

 

[BPGhost]

Well, I do believe had KP had the players Howard inherited, it may have been the later years when everyone realized the coach is not as good as once thought.

You may indeed be right - we’ll never know of course but - even without Howard’s first team or comparable talent - 4 wins?

No one could ever convince me that UofL didn’t have more talent than at least 1/2 the teams on their schedule. Scotty Davenport would have won at least double digits with that group and pitino would have been close to 20 dubs.

 

[OldhamCard335]

I agree - Payne is a player that is in that gray area. A player who had more potential than what his performance resulted in. With that said, being one of only 25 people on the planet to be drafted in the 1st round by the NBA indicates what type of skills they believed he possessed.

Maybe KP just didn’t have enough “fight” when he was a player!

 

[BooneCo_Card]

Great summary, Denny Crum and Rick played college ball. So it really depends on the person

Both were guards and had a firm grasp on how an offense should operate. Juwan was a VG high post center and technically sound. He hired Phil Martelli former HC at St.Joe's to run the floor game and X's and O's. Juwan should have done better at M, but let his ego get in the way.

KP knew how to spot up for his shot and little idea in what was involved to get him the ball.

IMO if you are going to hire an alum, make sure you hire a former guard, not a big man.

 

[cardsfan53]

They both coached as assistants long enough to be evaluated. Howard in the NBA, KP with UK, Oregon, and the NBA.

Majority of hires fail.

I'm not sure how much guys like KP and Scheyer really learn from watching HOF coaches shake the hands of NBA Lottery picks.

Payne was just foolish to accept the job without having NBA Lottery picks to lean on.

Hopefully UofL makes a change and they grab a guy that can get it done.

You hit the nail on the head imo. Payne was brought here under the assumption he would be a high-level recruiter. Once he whiffed on high-level transfers and high school kids I knew we were in trouble. If he could have pulled some big-time players things could have been different. If he could have pulled the level of guys Scheyer has at Duke things might have been different. But he didn't and here we are, I like KP but a change has to be made.

 

[BPGhost]

You hit the nail on the head imo. Payne was brought here under the assumption he would be a high-level recruiter. Once he whiffed on high-level transfers and high school kids I knew we were in trouble. If he could have pulled some big-time players things could have been different. If he could have pulled the level of guys Scheyer has at Duke things might have been different. But he didn't and here we are, I like KP but a change has to be made.

You cannot simply be a high level recruiter and have sustained success - there has to be some substance to coaching side of things when players arrive. I mean look no farther than 70 miles east - where it took a generational player like A Davis (who was bought and paid for) to get fat, sweaty cow over the hump.

He currently has oodles of talent in this year’s team and looking at double digit losses and probably another flameout in the round of 32. But compared to Payne - coaching wise - cow is Greg Popovich.

I for one at glad the recruiting didn’t pan out for him - if it had, he would have been here years longer delivering 18-16 type seasons.

 

[glassmanJ]

You hit the nail on the head imo. Payne was brought here under the assumption he would be a high-level recruiter. Once he whiffed on high-level transfers and high school kids I knew we were in trouble. If he could have pulled some big-time players things could have been different. If he could have pulled the level of guys Scheyer has at Duke things might have been different. But he didn't and here we are, I like KP but a change has to be made.

the interesting thing was we had a top 5 incoming class this year, better than just about any class in history if you go back and look, better than anything RP ever did, but flowers ran for the money in australia. it was the defining moment of our season and for the career of KP. he had the chance to be a go to guy even as a frosh. would have been another guy for depth.

imho, would have given us probably 8 more wins if not more and lot more hope. so to say he didn't recruit well isn't necessarily true. i think if Flowers had shown up and for the RP lovers, if you gave RP this full team, my guess we'd have won 20 this year and been a top 20 team. recruiting wasn't the issue. coaching style was. in reality, i think KP can coach, not very well but he can coach, but i think he's the type that only knows one way and has no idea how to adjust to the players he has. he needs his absolutely style of players to fit what he wants. but in terms of recruiting, up in the last moment when flowers bailed, we had a top 5 class. when has we ever had a top 5 class before? anyone, anyone? beuller? bueller? voo doo economics

 

[UofLouisville]

I seriously doubt flowers would have played defense well enough on his own to get that many more wins.

 

[BPGhost]

the interesting thing was we had a top 5 incoming class this year, better than just about any class in history if you go back and look, better than anything RP ever did, but flowers ran for the money in australia. it was the defining moment of our season and for the career of KP. he had the chance to be a go to guy even as a frosh. would have been another guy for depth.

imho, would have given us probably 8 more wins if not more and lot more hope. so to say he didn't recruit well isn't necessarily true. i think if Flowers had shown up and for the RP lovers, if you gave RP this full team, my guess we'd have won 20 this year and been a top 20 team. recruiting wasn't the issue. coaching style was. in reality, i think KP can coach, not very well but he can coach, but i think he's the type that only knows one way and has no idea how to adjust to the players he has. he needs his absolutely style of players to fit what he wants. but in terms of recruiting, up in the last moment when flowers bailed, we had a top 5 class. when has we ever had a top 5 class before? anyone, anyone? beuller? bueller? voo doo economics

Not that it matters at this point but, most services had the class at between 6-8 including flowers. Pitino’s 2006 class (D Character) was ranked 6th and the 2011 class (C Behanan) was ranked 5th.

Either way though - it was an impressive class until flowers bailed. Too bad it wouldn’t have mattered much given that Payne is the unquestioned WOAT.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

In this era of portal recruiting class value is reduced. If you dont have high end NBA impact player day one who knows if a class can pan out?

One guy didn't show up. Evans career ends abruptly but was years from being a player anyway.

The class is mediocre 5 games into year 1. +8 wins projection with a re-class mediocre shooter is a reach.

What we do know is they have 8 wins total.

 

[Cardiac Red]

I think a lot of former players that ended up being great coaches probably didn't start their coaching careers out at Louisville, Michigan, or Indiana. Probably assistant coach under great coaches and worked their way up through the ranks.

Top 10-20 basketball programs are not the places to go learn how to be a coach..

 

[KozmasAgain]

Howard’s overall record as Head Coach is 87-65. His best years were early in his coaching career more than likely because of the players left by the previous coach.

 

[glassmanJ]

I seriously doubt flowers would have played defense well enough on his own to get that many more wins.

i agree but he also gave you another person of talent that the other team had to guard. I love how dan patrick used to put it when people would say Steph Curry is too small to guard anyone in the nba to which DP always replies, well, who's guarding Curry? like in uk's case, or Nate oates teams, sometimes the best offense is a good defense. this team never had any confidence and there hasn't been a leader. not saying flowers was that kid, but what if simply he could score score at will, not all the time but with consistency, that would have totally changed the dynamic from the get go. college bball is the one game where one player can make all the difference. danny manning, carmelo, kemba, jsut to name a few than can spark a team. flowers probably wasn't but i sure would have preferred to have him this season. and btw, did any one ever say what was wrong with evans?

 

[UofLouisville]

"i agree but he also gave you another person of talent that the other team had to guard"


Your implying a skinny reclassified 17 yr old would have been an offensive threat in kp's dribble drive. He couldn't handle the ball in Australia, I doubt kps coaching would have helped.


"I love how dan patrick used to put it when people would say Steph Curry is too small to guard anyone in the nba "


Defense and NBA are an anathema in the same sentence. I will say kp had NBA defense down pat.