The way Wake Forrest just rolled at the end, with wide open receivers and going the length of the field in one minute or less, what are thoughts about improvements on defense to watch for next week?
Defense?
- Thread starter cardfaninmemphis
- Start date
We are a bend don’t break defense. We must get more stops and stop giving teams break when we put them in 2nd and long or 3rd and long. I’d like to see more blind side blitz packages with our LB’s. They’ve shown they are our best pressures on QB while our line is the weak spot. It just seemed to take forever to get any up field surge with Wake using that Leveon Bell crap against us.
I understand what you mean but keep in mind last year's team, which had more depth and more talent, would have lost 62-10 or something similar.
So, what adjustments can be made, or are you saying that there aren't any to be made?
We can't knock the defense at all. The corners were left on an island all night against some great WRs because we couldn't pressure the QB very often. Look at the drive chart in the link.
The defense was on the field for a crazy amount of snaps, I think they did a HELL of a job.
1) Our offense scored very quickly our longest drive took 4 Min 36 Sec our average drive was under 2 minutes all night. (WOW)
2) Kickoff return for a TD less than a minute rest
3) They played 102 Snaps against a hurry up offense and we have very little depth.
4) We ran 69 Plays and scored 62 points thanks to special teams they kicked a$$
https://www.espn.com/college-football/playbyplay?gameId=401112481
The secondary has struggled all year, and sub par QB pressure hasn’t helped.
Going into WF people were praising their “big” “fast” “next level” WR’s, and they’re offense was “awesome”
So, all this come true, and we want to say our defense “sucks”?
The more I watch the replay, the more I think our “gap control” game plan was working as well as could be expected.
Until about 60-70 plays in. 102 plays is a ridiculous amount of plays.
A pass rusher or two would “improve” this D a ton.
Going into WF people were praising their “big” “fast” “next level” WR’s, and they’re offense was “awesome”
So, all this come true, and we want to say our defense “sucks”?
The more I watch the replay, the more I think our “gap control” game plan was working as well as could be expected.
Until about 60-70 plays in. 102 plays is a ridiculous amount of plays.
A pass rusher or two would “improve” this D a ton.
I had to listen to the game instead of watch it, but from what I could hear on the radio the let down sounded like fatigue from the insane amount of plays and mental because the sideline apparently felt the game was won and looked panicked/terrified when WF came storming back (similar to the basketball game against Duke when the Cards were up 23+ and forgot how to bring the ball up the court when Duke began pressing).
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It's the first year in a long haul you guys have had a coach that cares about defense. After years of not recruiting or changing DC slots it's gonna take a couple seasons to balance. Seems like what Satterfield teaches....effort, speed, gang tackle....is a solid plan.
Do you really need to see stats to have an idea of which half, best or worse, our D ranks in?
If that’s all you got, don’t bother to respond. Anybody with some sense knows our D is giving up too many points and yardage but since we are in conference play, it might be helpful to see what other ACC teams are doing against common opponents. I know that’s above your pay grade though.
I apologize for a poor attempt at humor, and meant it only for my disdain of statistical overload. I guess I will always be old school. Today’s analytics are a bit overwhelming for someone that believes more in intangibles not measured than stats shown 10 ways to 1.
I guess I do like to see signs of improvements in the numbers.
Someone mentioned Wake dictated the tempo. I respectfully disagree. We dictated it and CSS had a great game plan that bestowed pressure on Wake from the get go. Tempo was mainly due to Wake being in the hole and playing catch up for 4 quarters.
Wake ran 102 plays on offense, many of those without substituting. The Clawfense is designed to wear down the defense (especially the bigger front seven guys), and with Newman completing nearly 70% of his passes, Wake Forest was in the top 5 in the country in 3rd down conversions. Depth is pretty useless when an offense is running hurry up while not substituting, going on long drives and successfully converting every third down. Your depth is sitting over on the sideline, and after the first 8 or so plays, your biggest defensive players are going to be gassed.
My point to all this is that, in order to shut down that offense, you need defensive linemen that consistently beat one on one blocking and will collapse the pocket and reset the line of scrimmage unless they are double teamed. G.G. Robinson is basically the only DL who is playing close to that level for us right now.
My point to all this is that, in order to shut down that offense, you need defensive linemen that consistently beat one on one blocking and will collapse the pocket and reset the line of scrimmage unless they are double teamed. G.G. Robinson is basically the only DL who is playing close to that level for us right now.
This is correct ... Wake only scored 27 against a poor BC defense because they had the lead and were holding it. Against UofL, they scored 59 and amassed 668 yards of offense because they were way behind and had to play that way to have any chance of catching us.
They have an outstanding offense - top 5 in the nation in terms of total offense. You’re not going to stop that team’s offense without a great defensive line that can get in the backfield with just three or four rushers.
Sacks are the ultimate drive stoppers as are penalties. Get them behind the chains and improve our odds. You made an excellent point wit one on one blocking against our line. For this, I’d like to show more weak side blitzing packages but can our line get to the QB to hurry a pass when we are pulling 1 or 2 defenders from coverage. You seemed to answered my question. We can’t gamble if the line isn’t more effective.
average game is 70-80 plays for most teams.
would have helped if we actually used some clock on offense instead of just scoring at will and running back kicks. let's use some clock, drive the length of the feild sometimes instead fo these quick hitters. sheesh, dang offense and specials teams making the defense worse by scoring too quick!
Lmao. Can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. I guess we could tell a ball carrier to fake a cramp near the 10 and just lay down.
I think that the defense has done a pretty good job against tempo - particularly considering the lack of depth. Until that is addressed, they are going to have issues with teams that go tempo the entire game and have that play makers like Wake does - fortunately that list of teams is pretty short. For this week, I expect Clemson to use tempo probably more than they would against their other opponents - particularly late in each half. They do a great job of spreading teams out with the quick WR screens - they will keep doing it until you prove that you can stop it - the first year we played them, they ran it (to both sides) like four times in a row. Going to be a tall task.
Teams are coming out and running this no huddle so that adds to a play count - either way - it looks like we get personnel locked and that's how you exploit that. We start off showing pressure and give a lot of single safety (if any) looks while the secondary runs this "jam them up" man press on the outside. If theres a play action (which we see a lot of because an RPO sucks your LBs down) our linebackers are having a hard time dropping back into any kind of zone. It's why BC ate us up with a TE over the middle and slot WRs are getting a lot of yards after the catch.
Teams get quick first downs, we sub out 5 guys that do better in downfield coverage and then they start cashing in on the run until we sub out again. Rinse and repeat. So bottom line - we don't have the depth nor the the ideal personnel to run this aggressive 3-4. Build some DL depth, find us a lockdown safety on the bigger side of things and keep our LBs speedy then I think we can really start giving offenses a tougher read and add less transparent adjustments we can call in quick.
That said, we seem to figure it out in the Red Zone a little bit and we're forcing turnovers. Our guys give 110% every play and we throw down some flat out awesome open field 1v1 tackles. If our offense keeps clicking and we get good production out of those then I'll gladly watch shootout after shootout and be grateful for VanGorder being nowhere near the building.
Go cards beat everybody
Teams get quick first downs, we sub out 5 guys that do better in downfield coverage and then they start cashing in on the run until we sub out again. Rinse and repeat. So bottom line - we don't have the depth nor the the ideal personnel to run this aggressive 3-4. Build some DL depth, find us a lockdown safety on the bigger side of things and keep our LBs speedy then I think we can really start giving offenses a tougher read and add less transparent adjustments we can call in quick.
That said, we seem to figure it out in the Red Zone a little bit and we're forcing turnovers. Our guys give 110% every play and we throw down some flat out awesome open field 1v1 tackles. If our offense keeps clicking and we get good production out of those then I'll gladly watch shootout after shootout and be grateful for VanGorder being nowhere near the building.
Go cards beat everybody
You’re spot on with the assessment of our lb’s not getting into coverage, I saw a lot of people online blaming the secondary but there were numerous occasions I noticed in the last few games, especially BC that not only were our LB’s not dropping back in time they just flat out were out of position in their zones, which led to some big throws around the hash marks.
It doesn’t matter how much depth we have if they can’t get in the game.
If the opponent doesn’t sub out, we can’t. See WF.
“Depth” is a moot point against it.
If the opponent doesn’t sub out, we can’t. See WF.
“Depth” is a moot point against it.
I believe the Wake Forest hurry up offense was ultimately our down fall. At the end of the game, our guys were GASSED, but if you compare their first five drives with their last five, it brings home the point. Their first five drives were:
Punt
Fumble
Punt
TD
Punt
Their last five drives were:
Punt
TD
TD
TD
TD
In the first half, they had nine possessions, but only scored on three of them. In the second half they also had nine possessions, but scored on six of them, and really scored on six of their last eight, as we forced them to punt on their opening possession of the second half.
What this tells me is that when our guys were fresh, they played pretty well. Not great, but better than what the ultimate score showed. This boils down to a problem that we all knew existed, and that is depth. The coaches are working on that with recruiting, but it will take time.
At the end of the day, the coaches are doing the best they can with the hand they were dealt, so no need to hit the panic button. We will get better over the coming years if these coaches stick around.
Punt
Fumble
Punt
TD
Punt
Their last five drives were:
Punt
TD
TD
TD
TD
In the first half, they had nine possessions, but only scored on three of them. In the second half they also had nine possessions, but scored on six of them, and really scored on six of their last eight, as we forced them to punt on their opening possession of the second half.
What this tells me is that when our guys were fresh, they played pretty well. Not great, but better than what the ultimate score showed. This boils down to a problem that we all knew existed, and that is depth. The coaches are working on that with recruiting, but it will take time.
At the end of the day, the coaches are doing the best they can with the hand they were dealt, so no need to hit the panic button. We will get better over the coming years if these coaches stick around.
Problem is, WF negates ANY depth.
We could be 3 deep in 5 stars and it does no good if you can’t get them in the game.
You can’t sub against the no huddle w/o either being out of position or getting an illegal sub penalty.
That’s why they run it. To compete against more, better athletes.
Even Clemson better stop in 3 or 6 and out, and THEay probably will, or they are going to “run out of gas” by the 4th quarter too.
I agree with this, but on the other hand, if you have depth, then you play the second string guy for a series, and weigh that drop off versus playing the starter who is gassed. That is not even an option for us at most positions, but I'm pretty sure that Clemson can plug in number two and not miss a beat.
For teams not named Clemson, WF's hurry up is definitely a problem, but for teams like us, it is a killer. Wake has scored:
38
41
24
49
27
59
in their games this season, so obviously other teams have been able to overcome their hurry up offense, so I will fall back to the depth problem.
Until we have a couple of recruiting classes, we will not be able to judge our defensive coaches on their own merits, but from what I have seen this year I believe they can coach. Time will tell.
More personnel gives you the tools to throw out different packages and stunts to keep offenses off balance and disrupts what they've seen on film.
Cardfan16 hit the nail on the head there - nothing to panic about unless this is an issue 2 years down the road.
Cardfan16 hit the nail on the head there - nothing to panic about unless this is an issue 2 years down the road.
A problem I saw throughout the game was that our defense was slow getting to the line and set for the Next play. All night long the offense was set and snapping the ball while our defense was getting in position. This had a big impact on the poor pass rush. I don't know the answer, but while defense is looking to the sideline for alignment signals, the opposing team is rushing to snap the ball.
Quality of depth was the issue. We rotated every series. We played atleast 9 Dlineman that sometimes rotated the same series. We also rotated atleast 9 LB’s. I’m not sure about our DB’s.
The main problem I see with our defense is that we have two defensive linemen (Robinson and Goldwire). Everybody else playing a DL spot for us is a linebacker playing out of position.
I’m definitely having a sense of deja vu here, regarding Petrino’s inability to recruit and develop quality DL. We had similar hangover symptoms like this after he left for the Falcons.
I’m definitely having a sense of deja vu here, regarding Petrino’s inability to recruit and develop quality DL. We had similar hangover symptoms like this after he left for the Falcons.
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Our D had 9 stops-6 punts and 3 turnovers against a top offense. We had games last year against bad offenses with zero stops. That’s significant progress and we are seeing problems be eliminated each week.
We can help ourselves a lot by figuring out how to run clock. Also, our onside kick return was unprepared. It was 6 dudes playing catch. This will be corrected.
We can help ourselves a lot by figuring out how to run clock. Also, our onside kick return was unprepared. It was 6 dudes playing catch. This will be corrected.
I appreciate Cardfan's analysis. We knew coming in the Defense was going to be thin. Despite the points scored the effort was good, the tackling was sharp. We just ran out of gas. Obviously, CSS will focus on increasing the depth with each new class.
I would throw Ty Tyler into that group of DLinemen as well. He looks like he could get into better shape, but they've rotated him at DT the last two games. I'll also tell you, He made a play that could have potentially went for a TD or long gain. He lined up at DT, didn't get penetration, but when the LB broke the line of scrimmage, the Safeties where out of position and he rotated and made a diving tackle that could have potentially broke for a long TD run. I absolutely love how the Dline will follow the ball down field.
Man he's is the one guy that should never play on the inside. Lining up on the ends allows him to use the moves he has developed over his career. He had 9 sacks last season. Let him do what he does best.
We've got to get better coverage and tackling from Anthony Johnson and Chandler Jones. Their play in the 4th qtr was just well, awful. Could have been fatigue I guess.
We also need better over the top coverage from our safeties. Khane is a heat seeking missile against the run, but cannot cover to save his life.
Fatigue didn’t help but in reality - #14 for weak forest is just better than most guys he goes against - including Johnson and Chandler.
Great thread.One of the better ones I've read in a while. Lots of good points.
They're so much better tackling. That,in and of itself,makes me smile.
They're so much better tackling. That,in and of itself,makes me smile.
WF won the first 5 games, score is not the only metric on offence that matters...they controlled the ball with the lead.
If you take the average amount of plays we have seen this season into consideration we are fine. After 72 plays or right around there we only gave up 21 points. The next 30 is when we just ran out of gas. This is just who we are until our debth issues ate resolved. I think that's an impressive stat. Luckily I don't think we play anymore hurry up offenses but now the defenses get better so pick your poison. Best case scenario against Clemson is they slow our offense down so our drives take longer. As long as we still score . That keeps the ball away from their offense and lets our D rest. If this happens we could stun the college football world.
