After much thought and consideration........

[Kratz]

I've put a lot of thought into this, and have basically kept my mouth shut while doing so. Now I feel it's time for me to throw out what I think about the core of the situation, and CRP.

The way I see it, there's only TWO possible ways this thing went down.

1. He knew something was up, but chose to not learn too much. He's too much of a micro manager to NOT know something was going on. He can tell you the body fat percentage of every player on the team. He knows every time a player misses curfew, he could tell stories about Kyle Kurics girlfriend. He's always been a tuned in micro manager. That's not an insult, it's just how he operates. We can all agree on that I think.

2. He is telling the truth and absolutely knew nothing about any of this. I find this one to be the most troubling if true. Because he is such a micro manager and on top of things, that means there was a VAST conspiracy to keep this covered up and out of his attention. It would involve players, recruits, STAFF MEMBERS, SECURITY PEOPLE at Minardi Hall, etc. We're talking about several parties per year and no one gets in without going through security. Security people knew something. The players and recruits involved ensured word never got out through any channels. They obviously knew and and covered. I don't think McGee, players and security could have kept other members of the staff in total darkness over a span of 4 years.

#2 is truly scary for the institution as a whole. It implicates everyone at every level in a cover up.

Someone tell me if there's a plausible third option, because I can't see it as of now. These are the only two things that make sense. Given the severity and swiftness of what UofL did to themselves, it makes #2 look like a very distinct possibility.

 

[nccardfan]

#3. He knew nothing about it because it never occurred to him that someone who he put his faith in by rewarding him with a career and mentored through his tough times would become greedy and literally betray his true family. Sound familiar? It's happened before. What's the solution? Never trust anyone? What kind of world would that be?

 

[kozmas]

I find it hard to believe that Pitino knew about this and did nothing, so I don't think he knew anything. We are talking about a coach who kicked important players off his team for rules violations. Players like Chane Behannan, Kevin Ware and Chris Jones players that could of helped us to another Final Four or even a National Title.

 

[seashore]

What if we didn't have Damion & Trey? They, especially Damion, have saved this season. With Mangok injured, we might not be tied for first place in the ACC. We might be closer to .500. Sentiment might be different, more like Syracuse last year, and doing this might be the best and only thing that happens.

I do suggest they pick another year to honor CAF fans.

And do not raise donations and/or ticket prices any time soon. We would very likely give up our men's basketball tickets for that reason. Not for lack of support of UL or the players. We dearly love our 4 seats.

Our 10 UL WBB season tickets are looking more and more wonderful. They better not raise those much either.

Ellen

 

[nccardfan]

"To punish the student-athletes in the men's basketball [program] by prohibiting a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to compete in the postseason is simply wrong. It is not what our system of governance should be about and we are considering our response."

Does this sound familiar? It is a statement made by SMU and Larry Brown prior to the NCAA upholding their postseason ban. There were quite a few players on this roster that did not have anything to do with the ban, but yet it happened. We are not the first, nor the last to suffer.... Again, as others point out, we don't know the extent of the circumstances but it has to be considerable.

 

[zipp]

I'm pretty sure it's #2, but I'm not all sure of the facts behind it as the OP describes...

One thing we can surmise is that a person in authority (McGee) who conspired to make it happen also made the obfuscation a lot easier. If it was just the players, someone would have likely gotten caught. With McGee and perhaps others helping, there was a far greater chance that it was happening without Pitino knowing.

IIRC the ho said there were 20 or so parties over a four year timespan. That's about one every other month. This stuff wasn't going on every weekend which also helps you if you're trying to "party" undetected.

The most egregious thing that Pitino did was hire McGee, keep him on staff, and keep him in that job. From a distance, it looked like McGee was little more than an overgrown basketball player. It was a situation in hindsight of the coeds guarding the dorm--IOW fraught with risk.

 

[Cue Card]

I agree with all that believe Pitino had zero knowledge of what happened. Unlike most (I think), I do believe he needs to let the buck stop with him. He needs to step up and take responsibility since the one he trusted decided not to. McGee did this to this program and for that I'll never think of him as even a former player. He never existed in my UofL Cardinals world. Screw that guy.

Fine Pitino half of his salary or even suspend him for the remainder of this season but for the love of THIS team, please do not punish them for something they had nothing to do with nor were responsible for in any way. To borrow a phrase from Peter Griffin, that part really grinds my gears.

 

[Kratz]

#3. He knew nothing about it because it never occurred to him that someone who he put his faith in by rewarding him with a career and mentored through his tough times would become greedy and literally betray his true family. Sound familiar? It's happened before. What's the solution? Never trust anyone? What kind of world would that be?

I don't buy that one because of the micro manager that he is. If not for his ultra micro managing style, I could see that as plausible, but not with this man. He's too tuned to what every player is doing and everything going on anywhere that has anything to do with UofL Basketball. Again, calling him a micro manager isn't an insult: It's simply how the man operates. We've all known that for years. Yes, McGee betrayed us all, but mostly Pitino. But Pitino watches all. IMO that's why my option #2 is one that I fear has happened. This was kept from him on multiple levels. Players, security, staff,etc. You don't keep something like this completely quiet and off the radar of your micro managing boss for four years unless there is a widespread network of people involved in it.

 

[Kratz]

I find it hard to believe that Pitino knew about this and did nothing, so I don't think he knew anything. We are talking about a coach who kicked important players off his team for rules violations. Players like Chane Behannan, Kevin Ware and Chris Jones players that could of helped us to another Final Four or even a National Title.

Again, that's why I'm afraid my scenario #2 is the correct one, and if it is, there's a world of hurt coming for the program. Cover ups at every level of the program to keep it quiet. Players, administrative types, security at the dorm. It would take a lot of people at every level to keep this thing completely off of Pitinos radar for four years.

 

[nccardfan]

Yeah the guy who goes on all these recruiting trips, speaks at public events, has a family and coaches a basketball team that plays at least twice a week has time to babysit a director of basketball operations. Hell why have a position if like you said CRP is going to "manage it" he has nothing better to do than drive over to the student dorm on Friday night to see what his players are doing after probably making them go through two workouts that day...

 

[davecmc]

I don't know that we'll ever know the full story because so much gray area exists and that's what makes it tough for the NCAA to rule on because it's gray and it's unprecedented. I think there are several variations of the hypothesis one and two by the OP that are in play and it's not that simple. For example, I think it's totally plausible that these engagements were viewed as small stripper parties by the attendees that occurred maybe 14 times in 4 years (closer to Eric Crawford's investigated number than Powell and Cady's number). It could easily be that Pitino didn't know and they weren't high profile, and they were small and happened 3-5 times a year. So, some huge cover up was not necessarily in order.

Also, you could see how the the players/recruits showed up and thought it was just party time at Andre's, not let's go to the place for our illegal benefits. They didn't consciously think "I'm here to get my extra paid benefit" like would be the case if grades were being changed or money was going to a recruit, or car keys handed over, etc... Lending more credit to this point is the women Powell brought to the parties who filed a law suit saying, "yes we were there partying, having sex if we wanted, but we weren't paid by Powell." So if they didn't consider themselves paid, I don't think the players/recruits considered the events a paid benefit.

I do think Andre paid Powell. I'm sure they have corroborated texts that read "I need the show tonight for $200", or something close to that with a money trail. I think he clearly paid her something and the university now has evidence of that. That's were it gets gray and unprecedented. If the players/recruits don't view it as paid, and the strippers don't view it as paid... then it's just a party in everyone's eyes except Andre and Powell? Obviously, it has to be considered a benefit because Andre became a staffer and he paid, but it's so unique, who knows how the NCAA will handle it, ultimately.

Which brings me to faith in Jurich in this absurdity. I can only assume Jurich, either to the NCAA directly or round 'about through Smrt, has had some reassurance - if you drop the hammer this year, we won't touch past banners. That's the only advantage to dropping the hammer now with this team.

 

[Dore95]

I find it hard to believe is that McGee was the only bad actor here. These were not random parties - they were supposedly associated with recruiting trips. I assume recruiting weekends are carefully planned. It is implausible to me that only Andre McGee knew what was going on late night at Minardi Hall during recruiting trips over 4 years. Did no one every ask the next day "what did you all do last night with the recruits"?

And of course that is especially true considering McGee wasn't even on staff the last time this supposedly happened. My point - there almost had to be other coaches/staff members involved and aware. That is the scary part. If an organized part of our recruiting over a 4 year period involved prostitution parties, whether Pitino was aware or unaware, we will get hammered.

 

[BPGhost]

I don't buy that one because of the micro manager that he is. If not for his ultra micro managing style, I could see that as plausible, but not with this man. He's too tuned to what every player is doing and everything going on anywhere that has anything to do with UofL Basketball. Again, calling him a micro manager isn't an insult: It's simply how the man operates. We've all known that for years. Yes, McGee betrayed us all, but mostly Pitino. But Pitino watches all. IMO that's why my option #2 is one that I fear has happened. This was kept from him on multiple levels. Players, security, staff,etc. You don't keep something like this completely quiet and off the radar of your micro managing boss for four years unless there is a widespread network of people involved in it.

Maybe, just maybe Pitino is exaggerating the extent to which he "knows everything" - it's not as though he is a stranger to exaggeration and hyperbole. In fact, though I believe him to be 1 of the top 5 college coaches, it is the fatigue that I feel from the constant spin and turmoil every season, that won't have me missing him when he's gone.

Maybe he micromanaged every last detail earlier in his career, doubt that he's at the same level of that now in his 60's but, his ego would never let him admit it. He is a supremely talented individual but, one who is consistently undone by ego and hubris.

 

[Cue Card]

I find it hard to believe is that McGee was the only bad actor here. These were not random parties - they were supposedly associated with recruiting trips. I assume recruiting weekends are carefully planned. It is implausible to me that only Andre McGee knew what was going on late night at Minardi Hall during recruiting trips over 4 years. Did no one every ask the next day "what did you all do last night with the recruits"?

And of course that is especially true considering McGee wasn't even on staff the last time this supposedly happened. My point - there almost had to be other coaches/staff members involved and aware. That is the scary part. If an organized part of our recruiting over a 4 year period involved prostitution parties, whether Pitino was aware or unaware, we will get hammered.

According to who? You taking the word of a whore or just putting together timelines you think are the case? None of the so called investigation has been made public so who knows when the last time this supposedly happened. My point is you don't know any more or less than the rest of us. We'll have to wait for the investigation to be made public before we know what happened and when, unless you take the word of a whore as gospel. I personally do not.

 

[nccardfan]

Past banner? Not so sure yet. However, I do think by agreeing to a post season ban now, maybe scholarship limits and money, at least you can go to the dance next year because then clearly no one who may have had an involvement will be associated with next year's team. Hopefully we are concerned with our future and can get over the past but none of us know that yet.

 

[davecmc]

I think the "other layer" is valid. I don't know if that changes the gray area with how to handle from the NCAA. Even if another coach linked to recruiting knew about the parties and/or funded $$$ to Andre... The NCAA would still have trouble clearly assigning who knew what was a benefit and who just thought they were at a party. Hopefully, Juricj is ahead of it with the self imposed penalty this year.

 

[BPGhost]

Past banner? Not so sure yet. However, I do think by agreeing to a post season ban now, maybe scholarship limits and money, at least you can go to the dance next year because then clearly no one who may have had an involvement will be associated with next year's team. Hopefully we are concerned with our future and can get over the past but none of us know that yet.

No guarantee that not going has any effect on NCAA penalties in the future. Wouldn't surprise me if they were fearing a multi-year tourney ban and simply wanted to include this year so as to not set recruiting back as badly.

 

[cuzimacardfan]

When people make comments like "he must have known" I wonder if they had even had a parent, been to school, or had a job. How many things in our lives have we seen that happened (or done ourselves) without knowledge of the people above us. How many things have you seen people do to keep from getting caught.

There are things that happens in prisons everyday without the knowledge of the people watching them. And they have no freedom whatsoever. Why is it so hard to believe that things can happen on a college campus without the knowledge of higher ups, including the coaching staff?

 

[new era cat]

It sucks for you that Pitino will be blamed for this. Sometimes the people around you that are most trusted are the ones who betray the most.
Reminds me of Cal getting blamed for Camby's indiscretions even though he knew nothing about it. He has been living with that for 20 years.
Pitino will just have to carry on with the majority of people pinning it on him. No way around it.

 

[CATFANFOLIFE87]

I find it hard to believe is that McGee was the only bad actor here. These were not random parties - they were supposedly associated with recruiting trips. I assume recruiting weekends are carefully planned. It is implausible to me that only Andre McGee knew what was going on late night at Minardi Hall during recruiting trips over 4 years. Did no one every ask the next day "what did you all do last night with the recruits"?

This is the part that I get hung up on. If this were only happening with the players on the team I could absolutely see how it would be easy to keep from Pitino. If it was happening in accordance with many of the biggest recruiting events Pitino hosted over a four year period (as the book alleges) then it becomes harder to explain. If 4 and 5 star kids are on campus you would think that Pitino is going to want to be very much in the know of how their trip is going and what they've been doing. That still doesn't mean that Pitino did know but it becomes a situation where if he didn't know he probably should have as opposed to if it had been happening on random weekends with players already on the team. In the second scenario you couldn't really expect him to know those things

 

[zipp]

...Pitino will just have to carry on with the majority of people pinning it on him. No way around it.

Nice LPT handicapping...

No, the majority do not "pin it on" Pitino. Even he acknowledges that the NCAA holds him responsible for what goes on in his operation whether he knows it or not. And that's as far as most U of L fans extend his accountability.

Sure, we have the closet Pitino haters (CPHes) who use any issue in U of L basketball to blame him, not unlike slapd!cks. But CPHes are usually pretty easy to recognize, and you hear from them disproportionately at these times. Doesn't mean much.

Unless major ish comes out, U of L fans will still support Pitino by a clear majority. Sorry about that.

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[new era cat]

I know the UL fan base won't , of.course, but the rest of the country will.

 

[zipp]

I know the UL fan base won't , of.course, but the rest of the country will.

1) Hasn't happened so far, and
2) Most U of L fans don't give an ish what others think anyway

So, tell me something else that matters?

"Elite program", my a$$...

 

[Cards1261]

Supposedly, a number of those " parties " happened in the summer. Pitting lives in Florida most of the summer.

 

[BA0811]

UK fan here, I don't think Rick knew. The loss of his brother in law was and will be hard on him and the fact these things were going on there, Mcghee, security, whoever kept a pretty tight lip on this. It is easy to see what happened, Mcghee pissed a shady person like Powell off and she went public. I would venture to say she regrets it now with the back lash. After all this, there are so many ironies when it comes to how this has played out, etc...I hope Rick sticks around at UL, I enjoy the "rivalry", I honestly think it would lose some of its luster for a little while with a new coach.

In saying that, there has to be some relief little Richard isn't doing so hot at Minnesota. If he was doing anything at all, we all know who the next coach was going to be 3-5 years from now.

 

[zipp]

...I hope Rick sticks around at UL, I enjoy the "rivalry", I honestly think it would lose some of its luster for a little while with a new coach...

We need to drop LPT from all of our athletic schedules, so that's not a good reason to retain Rick...

 

[rockfly]

We need to drop LPT from all of our athletic schedules, so that's not a good reason to retain Rick...

Kind of surprised to read this zipp

 

[zipp]

Kind of surprised to read this zipp

If you've visited this space in the last couple of weeks, the subject has received plenty of discussion and debate. And I've clearly articulated my reasons why, that U of L derives too few benefits anymore and LPT too many.

You need to consult that thread and carry on that discussion if you want.

"Elite program", my a$$...